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Waltham's Canadian Railway Movements

Waltham produced a number of watch movements that were factory-marked "Canadian Pacific Railway" (CPR), bearing the CPR's Beaver-on-Shield herald, and "Made For Canadian Railway Time Service" (CRTS). The Waltham records that are available today only indicate a portion of the movements that were so marked. Even a few of those listed as being CPR-marked movements are marked differently from what is listed. The tables below contain examples that have been reported.


Canadian Railway Marked Movements

Waltham built two grades of watches in both 18 and 16 size, Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) and Canadian Railway Time Service (CRTS). The 18-size watches were originally pulled from runs of various grades of 15-jewel, model 1883 movements (with apparently no rhyme or reason and in no particular serial number order) that were apparently being made when orders for the watches arrived at Waltham. These were upjeweled to 17-jewel.

Movements from runs of the following grades, as designated in the "The Gray Book" (see Reference section, below), have been finished as CPR & CRTS watches:

No. 15 - Maybe, designated in the "The Gray Book" as 15-35
No. 25
No. 35
No. 40
No. 87 - Described by a researcher as "... looks strange ..."
AT&Co
Crescent St.
P.S. Bartlett
Special

The quality of the grades from which the individual examples were pulled do not necessarily reflect that of the CPR or CRTS grades. The CPR or CRTS watches were finished to whatever specification may have existed for the two grades. These movements were given new barrel bridges bearing either the Canadian Pacific Railway beaver-on-shield herald or the marking, "Made For Canadian Railway Time Service." The damaskeening on these replacement barrel bridges do not usually match that on the movement top plates. The barrel bridges lack serial numbers (although there have been reports of some), but if some do have serial numbers, they will not match those on the movement top plates. However, this does not necessarily apply to movements from runs designated as CPR or CRTS.

Later, complete runs of the two grades (in both 18 and 16 size) were made and these are designated in the "The Gray Book." Nevertheless, movements from these runs have been observed bearing grade names (for example, Appleton, Tracy & Co.") other than those so designated (either CPR or CRTS). There are reports that the CPR or CRTS movements are listed in catalogs or price lists issued by Waltham's Canadian office and thus they are considered to be factory grades, although apparently not offered for sale in the U.S. (of course, there's no reason why they would be offered for sale in the U.S.).

Regarding differences between the Canadian Pacific Railway and Canadian Railway Time Service grades, the prices of the two were either equal, or there was about a $.25 (Canadian) difference between the two, with the CPR being the more costly (and common). Both were priced considerably less than the Appleton, Tracy & Co. grade. This can be seen for the 18-size watches in a 1901-1902 Eaton Catalog. More than ten years later, the pricing was equal, as seen on page 27 of the P.W. Ellis 1915 - 1916 Illustrated Catalogue (found online by Gordian). The 16-size watches are briefly discussed in the "Railroaders' Corner - 17-Jewel, 16-Size Standard Watches, Part 1," NAWCC Bulletin (see References, below). However, differences between the two grades (if any exist), beyond their markings, are not noted.

However, there was a difference between the two models of 18-size grades in the 1906-1908 timeframe. At that point, the model 1892 CPR and CRTS movements were being offered simultaneously with the model 1883 CPR and CRTS movements. A Canadian jobber's price list shows the model 1892 CPR and CRTS movements (both having the same description and price) as being "... adjusted to temperature and five (5) positions;" while the model 1883 CPR and CRTS movements (again, both having the same description and price) as being "... adjusted to temperature and three (3) positions;" A curious note on this is that in 1907 (presumably after the price list was issued) the Canadian Pacific Railway was requiring that watches be "... adjusted to temperature, isochronism and at least five positions ..."

Both the CPR & CRTS grades were accepted for use in railway time service without any distinction being made between the two. Also, although there have been occasional claims to the effect, no documentation has been published or posted to show that any railroad purchased or owned the CPR or CRTS watches. By the time that the first of these (18-size) movements started showing up, ownership of watches by railroads was generally a thing of the past.

Total Quantities Made


The total quantities of any of the Waltham Canadian railway watches that were built are indeterminate due to the nature of their creation. As stated above, they were originally made from movements pulled from runs of various grades of 15-jewel, model 1883 movements (with apparently no rhyme or reason and in no particular serial number order). The CPR and CRTS reported movement examples from these runs are not in solid blocks of serial numbers and there are reported examples of movements bearing the runs' designated grade names interspersed between the serial numbers of the examples of CPR or CRTS marked movements. Even for later runs listed as CPR and CRTS in "The Gray Book", examples have been reported as grades other than what was listed.

At the time of this writing (November 2018), there is an insufficient number of reported examples of CPR or CRTS movements from which to form close estimates of quantities. Also needed are reports of movement markings of examples from the runs from which CPR or CRTS movements are reported to have come. Knowing which watches from these runs are not marked CPR or CRTS helps in determining which watches might be so marked.

Pictures


18-size, Model 1883 Canadian Pacific Railway serial number 10033659, pendant-set, 17-jewel, open-face movement.

18-Size, Model 1892 Canadian Railway Time Service serial number 15005547, lever-set, 17-jewel, hunting-case movement, courtesy Seismicpocketwatcher.

18-Size, Model 1892 Canadian Railway Time Service serial number 22017547, lever-set, 17-jewel, open-face movement, courtesy Paul Sullivan.

18-Size, Model 1892 Canadian Pacific Railway serial number 10042564, lever-set, 21-jewel, open-face movement, courtesy Fred Hansen.

18-Size, Model 1892 Canadian Pacific Railway serial number 10082603, lever-set, 21-jewel, hunting-case movement, courtesy Fred Hansen.

16-size, Model 1908 Canadian Pacific Railway serial number 22294106, lever-set, 17-jewel, open-face movement, courtesy Phil_Dellinger.

16-size, Model 1908 Canadian Railway Time Service serial number 22066669, lever-set, 17-jewel, open-face movement, courtesy Dave Chaplain.

Reported Examples of Canadian Pacific Railway Marked Movements

Serial No.SizeJewelsModelTypeSetGradeComment
345851418171883OFPSNo. 25Multi-Color Loco on Dial w/ CPR-Marked Tender
345862518171883OFNo. 25"Adjusted"
363946018171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
377455118171883OFNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Polished Steel Scrs, Dial "C.F. Clare - The Jeweler - Campbellton, N.B."
385387118171883OFPSNo. 25"Adjusted"
395705618171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
395708218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
395717018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
395738018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Reg Arm
399302418171883OFPSNo. 15-35S/N List not broken down between grades "Adjusted"
399326218171883OFNo. 15-35S/N List not broken down between grades "Adjusted"
403021418171883OFPSNo. 25"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
417781018171883OFAT&Co
425963818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Gilt Reg, Polished Steel Scrs, Canadian Railroader-Style Dial
426102118171883OFNo. 25
467693718171883PSAT&CoCanadian Roadmaster Dial
472584318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
551402418171883HCLSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
551435518171883OFAT&Co
570115118171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
570124318171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
570137218171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
570159418171883OFLSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gilt Reg Arm & Star, Railroader Dial
570161218171883OFPSNo. 35Railroader-Style Dial
570192118171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
570676118171883HCLSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Railroader-Style Dial
571400318171883OFNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
571448818171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
571869518171883OFNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
571876718171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted"
571878518171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
572810018171883OFNo. 35
572819418171883OFNo. 35
572829418171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
572863018171883OFNo. 35"Adjusted"
572894818171883OFNo. 35"Adjusted"
572897618171883OFNo. 35Dial "S. Porte, St. Stephen N.B."
574154018171883HCLSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
574197018171883HCLSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
574246818171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" White Star Reg
574250218171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
574255618171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Reg Arm, Railroader-Style Dial
574269818171883OFNo. 35
574275718171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted"
574279718171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted"
574298118171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
585800518171883OFPSNo. 1Possible Error in S/N "Adjusted"
600606118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
600627518171883OFAT&Co
600801918171883OFNo. 40
600806818171883HCLSNo. 40"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
600812318171883HCLSNo. 40"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
600813118171883HCNo. 40"Adjusted"
600817318171883HCLSNo. 40"Adjusted"
600821718171883HCLSNo. 40"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
600828318171883HCLSNo. 40"Adjusted" White Star Reg
600830418171883OFNo. 40
745107718171883OFLSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim, Mvt previously reported w/ AT&Co Bbl Brg
745302318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
745310418171883OFAT&Co
745314518171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
745321218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
745382618171883OFAT&Co
745397918171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
771151218171883OFPSCS"Adjusted"
771158718171883OFLSCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
771159718171883OFPSCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
771176418171883OFPSCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
771191718171883OFCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
778687118171883OFPSCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
782205318171883OFPSAT&Co
782206718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
782211518171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
782213018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Star Reg
782290218171883OFAT&Co
782293918171883OFAT&Co
782294218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
782295418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
782300018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg has 2 arms - like Model 70 Reg
790281118211892OFLSSpecial
790281218211892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted"
790281618211892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted"
790281918211892OFSpecial"Adjusted"
790282118211892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790284218211892OFSpecial
790286518211892OFLSSpecial
790288018211892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" ("5 Positions" in 1 Line @ Rim Below Click) Gold Star Reg
790322418171883OFLSAT&Co
790330518171883PSAT&Co
790331718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790340118171883OFPSAT&Co
790343118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790344418171883OFLSAT&Co"Adjusted"
790353618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790358518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790369718171883OFPSAT&CoWhite Star Reg
790370418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790370818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
790373718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
790382718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790386418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
790398618171883OFPSAT&Co
871802818171883OFPSPSB"Adjusted"
885800518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
885801618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
885805518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Railroader Dial
885812318171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"White Star Reg
885825218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
885827918171883OFAT&Co
885829318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
885830218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
885831618171883OFLSAT&Co"Adjusted"
885838718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
885843118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
885844018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
885846918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
885847818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
905802918171883OFPSAT&Co
905807818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
905862718171883OFAT&Co
913301218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
913304318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
952061318171883No 87Reported as "Looks strange" May not be factory original
953631218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Railroader-Style Dial
953632318171883PSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953642218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg w/ Gilt Arm
953658218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
953676018171883OFAT&Co
953747418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953747818171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953748718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953772018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953774518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953776718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
954479618171883OFAT&Co-CSS/N List not broken down between grades
1002016418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1002034018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1003365918171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1003912818171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" White Star Reg
1003913118171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1003933718171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted"
1003937418171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted"
1004251118211892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004253618211892OFLSCPR"Adjusted"Star Reg
1004253718211892OFCPR
1004256418211892OFCPR"Adjusted"Gold Star Reg
1004263418211892OFPSCPR"Adjusted"Gold Star Reg
1004263518211892OFCPR
1004267718211892OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004269518211892OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004273218211892OFLSCPR
1004276318211892OFCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004277418211892OFCPR
1004278518211892OFCPR
1004278618211892OFCPR
1004281918211892OFPSCPR
1004283318211892OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Ohlson Reg
1004284018211892OFCPR
1004284418211892OFCPR
1004287818211892OFCPR
1004288818211892OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004353118171883OFSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004367918171892OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004369618171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004378818171883OFSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004383618171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004392618171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004442718171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Scrs
1005840018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1008260318211892HCLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1008261318211892HCLSCPR
1008262018211892HCCPR
1008262118211892HCLSCPR"Adjusted"
1008262818211892HCLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1008263018211892HCLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1008263318211892HCCPR
1008264618211892HCLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1008266218211892HCLSCPR
1008267318211892HCLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1009333918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1009337618171883OFAT&Co
1051894918171883OFAT&Co
1058630618171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted"
10586402181883SpecialDial "Grassie & Co., Vancouver, B.C."
1104701318171883OFAT&Co
1104708718171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104710418171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1104717718171883OFAT&Co
1104721518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104724918171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104725918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104727118171883OFAT&Co
1104730218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104733418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1104734118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104743318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104875418171883OFPSBReported that "looks like PS Bartlett train bridge"
1107258418171883OFCPR
1107274318171883OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1107278018171883OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1107292518171883OFPSCPR"Adjusted"
1107294618171883OFLSCPR"Adjusted"
1152804318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1152823318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Dial "A.C. Stenners, - Toronto."
1152841018171883OFAT&Co
1167566618151883OFNo. 81NOT Marked "Adjusted" Plain Reg, Gilt OF Mvt w/ Nickel Bbl Brg w/ CPR Beaver & Shield Herald & "17 Jewels"
1200352218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1200357318171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1200359018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1200362218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1200373218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1200378218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1200380218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1200391718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1200392418171883OFAT&Co
1200397818171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1201305418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1201314718171883OFAT&Co
1201321418171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1201323418171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1201349918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1202051518171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" White Star Reg
1202052118171892OFCPR
1202053318211892OFCPR
1202053918171892OFCPR
1202054818211892OFCPR
1202058318211892OFCPR
1202059718171892OFCPR"Adjusted" Star Reg
1202060918171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1202064118171892CPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1202066218211892OFCPR
1202067218171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Dial "Galster Bros., - Toronto"
1202069318171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1202072518171892OFCPR
1202073018211892OFCPR
1202079818171892CPR
1202080018171892OFCPR
1202082318171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1202086118171892OFCPR
1202091818171892OFCPR
1202092918211892OFCPR
1202093118211892OFCPR
1202094318211892OFCPR
1202095218211892OFCPR
1203550618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1203555418171883OFLSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1203559218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Dial "W.C. Strader, - North Williamburg, Ont."
1203561618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1203574118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1203579118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1203591318171883OFAT&Co
1254254418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
1254262818171883OFAT&Co
1254281518171883OFAT&Co
1254292718171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1254295218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1255375518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1255376918171883OFAT&Co
1255381318171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1255381518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1255383818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1255386418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1255386518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1257802518171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted"
1257823618171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1257846818171883OFSpecial
1267403618171883OFPSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1267424218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1408331118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Railroader-Style Dial
1408341018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1408344818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1408348018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1408349818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Dial "J.E. Nettleton - Penetanguishene"
1408352918171883OFAT&Co
1408363018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg,
1408364918171883OFAT&Co
1408366818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1408367618171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1408370618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1408372618171883OFPSAT&Co
1408373018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1409153018171883OFAT&Co
1409160818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1409176218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1409189218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1409192718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1409194318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Multi-Color Loco Dial (w/ Tender Signed "Horton") "A. W. W. Co. Waltham”
1409194918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1419201118171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1419205218171892OFCPR
1419205918171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Church Type 2 Reg
1419206718171892OFCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1419208118171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1419209418171892OFCPR
1419210718171892OFCPR
1419211418171892OFCPR
1419216918171892OFCPR"Adjusted" Star Reg
1451427218171883OFPSNo 825NOT Marked "Adjusted" White Rack & Pinion/Star Reg w/ Gold Scale, Gilt Scrs, May not be factory original
1490898316171899OFPSNo 625"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, May not be factory original
1500585418171892OFCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1502470118171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1502472618171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1502474418171892OFCPR
1502475518171892OFCPR
1502476818171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1502477118171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1502478418171892OFCPR
1502480718171892OFCPR
1502482318171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1502483318171892OFCPR
1502483818171892OFCPR
1502485018171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1502488718171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Star Reg
1502489318171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1502491418171892HCPSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions - A.C. Stanners Toronto"
1502495818171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1502497518171892OFCPR
1502498818171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions, Gold Star Reg, Dial "Stanners Toronto"
1505374818171892OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1505376118171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg - Reported Stolen by Marty101 on 24-Jul-16
1505376918171892OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1505382318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1505387318171892OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1611363518171883OFAT&Co
1611363918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1615161018171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1615164118171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1615164318171892OFCPR
1615168218171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1615174418171892OFLSCPROhlson Reg
1615175518171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1631213218171883OFPSNo, 825"Adjusted" Gilt Mic Reg, Gilt Bridge Scrs
1704400618171883OFPSPSBConverted to KWKS (Mspg arbor in middle of shield) "Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1704434418171883OFPSB
1704468418171883OFPSB
1704474718171883OFPSB"Adjusted"
1704487018171883OFPSPSB"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1706557518171883OFPSPSB
1718801018171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718801818171892OFSpecial
1718808218171892OFSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718810118171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718810318171892OFSpecial
1718812718171892OFSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1718815618171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718816618171892OFSpecial
1718822218171892Special"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1718823418171892OFSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718825518171892OFSpecial
1718826818171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718827318171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718827818171892LSSpecial
1718829018171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Bal Cock w/ Mtg holes & Scale for Ohlson Reg, but has Church Reg Arm
1803824916171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1803826316171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1803830116171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1803831016171908OFCPR
1803833016171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1803836116171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1803836716171908OFCPR
1806402318171892OFCPR
1806402718171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1806405118171892OFCPR
1806405518171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1806405818171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806406618171892OFCPR
1806406718171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806409518171892LSCPRDial "E.R. Blackmer Fredericton, N.B."
1806410118171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1806410318171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg, Dial "J. G. Foy Toronto Ont."
1806410818171892OFCPR
1806412618171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted"
1806413718171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806414518171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" Ohlson Reg Dial "A.C. Skinner, Sherbrooke, Que."
1806415118171892LSCPR
1806417318171892OFCPR
1806423818171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806426318171892OFCPR
1806426518171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806426618171892OFLSCPRAdj, Ohlson Reg
1806427918171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg, Waltham Box w/ Hinged Display Case
1806488718171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted" Ohlson Reg
1808522916171908OFVGold Star Reg - Damaskeening on Ctr Brg matches that on Bal Cock but doesn't seem to match that on Bbl Brg (which has Mvt S/N)
1813516218171892OFSpecial
1813516318171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1813519217Special"Adjusted"
1813519518171892OFSpecial
1813520918171892OFSpecial
1813521218171892OFSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1813522118171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1900225016171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1900226116171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1900227116171908OFCPR
1900228016171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1900229516171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1900232416171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg Dial "Waltham (above Ctr Post) - Keast & Brown (Arc over Secs Bit)"
1900234816171908OFLSCPR
1900237416171908LSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1900238216171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1908618618171892OFCPR
1908620218171892OFCPR
1908621618171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1908622218171892OFCPR
1908624018171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1908628518171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1908628918171892OFCPR
2000010818171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000010918171892OFCPR
2000011118171892OFCPR
2000013218171892OFCPR
2000015018171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000016018171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000016218171892OFCPR
2000020018171892OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2000026518171892OFCPR
2000027218171892OFCPR
2000194316171908OFCPR
2000195516171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000200016171908OFCPR
2000204016171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000207916171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2000208016171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2001761718171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg - S/N Clearly Seen
2201763318171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2202311516171908OFCPR
2202314616171908OFLSCPR
2202318516171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206652916171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206654316171908OFCPR
2206654516171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206656616171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206661516171908OFCPR
2206664416171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215580616171908OFCPR
2215583916171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215584416171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215585416171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215592216171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215593116171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215593416171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2215597016171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2229400516171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2229405416171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
2229407916171908OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
2229410616171908OFCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg

Reported Examples of Canadian Railway Time Service Marked Movements

Serial No.SizeJewelsModelTypeSetGradeComment
571848818171883OFPSNo. 35"Adjusted"
574166318171883HCLSNo. 35"Adjusted"
600838518171883HCNo. 40"Adjusted" Star Reg
745110118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gilt Trim
745110218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gilt Trim
745112218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
745130518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gilt Scrs
745133118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gilt Scrs
745133918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
745135818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
745136818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
745146318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
745161518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Bal Cock Scr, Others Blued
7453220181883OFAT&Co
745329118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
745336718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
745341518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
7453463181883OFAT&Co
7453493181883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gilt Trim
745355018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gilt Trim
745359818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
745360318171883OFAT&Co
745361718171883OFAT&Co
745368318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
745377018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
745383518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
745384918171883PSAT&Co"Adjusted"
771160318171883OFCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
771172418171883OFPSCS"Adjusted"
771181518171883OFPSCS"Adjusted"
771181618171883OFPSCS"Adjusted"
771184918171883OFPSCS"Adjusted"
7711884181883CS
771188818171883OFPSCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
771194018171883OFPSCS"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
771197518171883CS
790335018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790348018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
790366118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
790386018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
790391718171883OFPSAT&Co
913301618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
913304718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
953651518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg & Reg Arm
953677618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953758318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
953787418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg - Previously reported as "AT&Co"
954480918171892OFLSCS-AT&CoS/N List not broken down between grades "Adjusted 5 Positions" (In 2 Lines @ Edge of Bal), Gold Star Reg
954485018171892OFCS-AT&CoS/N List not broken down between grades "Adjusted" Star Reg
954485118171892OFCS-AT&CoS/N List not broken down between grades
954489218171892OFLSCS-AT&CoS/N List not broken down between grades "Adjusted 5 Positions" (In 2 Lines @ Edge of Bal), Gold Star Reg
1002002718171883AT&Co
1002016818171883PSAT&Co
1003351918171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1003362318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1003390318171883OFAT&Co
1004392218171883OFLSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1004404818171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" White Star Reg
1005800218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1005826018171883OFAT&Co
1005830918171883OFAT&Co
1009301618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1009303818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1009331018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" White Star Reg
1053473118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1054957118171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1054959018171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1054994318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1058638518171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1058644418171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Dial "A.C. Stanners, Toronto"
1104701418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104711018171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1104733318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1107265318171883OFPSCPR"Adjusted"
1107281618171883OFCPR"Adjusted"
1107293018171883OFPSCPR"Adjusted"
1152813518171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1152818318171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1152826718171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1152838918171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1152843318171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1152848818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1202068918171892OFLSCPR"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1255382818171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1255389618171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1255391218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted"
1257845118171883OFPSSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1257845418171883OFSpecial"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
126737571817OFLSAT&Co"Adjusted 5 Positions" White Star Reg
1267441618171883OFCPR"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1394023218171883OFPSNo. 825"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg, Top Plate has milled Slot near Bal w/ 3 holes where a Reg might have been mounted
1409184218171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1409184418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1409187418171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1409189218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted"
1409198618171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1410163118171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Star Reg
1410163218171892LSSpecial
1410167418171892OFSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1500365718171892OFNo. 845"Adjusted 5 Positions" Star Reg S/N could be in error
1500550318171892OFLSCRTS
1500551618171892OFCRTS
1500552818171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1500553218171892OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" White Star Reg
1500554718171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1500554818171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" White Star Reg, Restored
1500556518171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg, Gilt Trim
1500559118171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" White Star Reg
1500561518171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1500561818171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1500564218171892OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1505381718171892OFAT&Co
1505382318171883OFAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1511250518171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1511251118171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg, Dial "A.C Skinner Sherbrooke Que."
1511254118171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1511255018171892OFCRTS
1511256318171892LSCRTS
1511258018171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1511262918171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1611362218171883OFPSAT&Co"Adjusted" Gold Star Reg
1615184018171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1615186218171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1615188618171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718839118171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718839418171892OFSpecial
1718840418171892OFSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718840718171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718841218171892OFSpecial
1718846818171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718848118171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1718850018171892OFLSSpecial"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1803811916171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1803812516171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1803813016171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted"
1803813616171908OFCRTS
1803815716171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1806362218171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806382218171892OFCRTS
1806388518171892OFCRTS
1806390118171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806390418171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806392018171892OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806392118171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806394618171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806395718171892OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806396218171892OFPSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1806396518171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1806399518171892OFCRTS
1808323018171892OFLSAT&Co"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1900242616171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1900247016171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1900248416171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
1908604318171892OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
1908606718171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
1908607118171892LSCRTS
1908608618171892OFCRTS
2000001718171892OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000180916171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2000183616171908OFCRTS
2201750418171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2201752118171892OFLSCRTS
2201753018171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2201753218171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2201753418171892OFLSCRTS
2201754718171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2201754818171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2201755418171892OFLSCRTS
2201758918171892OFLSCRTS
2201759818171892OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2202301716171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206666416171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206666916171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2206668816171908LSCRTS
2216850616171908OFCRTS
2216851916171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Ohlson Reg
2216852116171908OFCRTS
2216852816171908OFLSCRTS
2216853916171908OFCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg
2216854416171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2216857216171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions"
2216859816171908OFLSCRTS"Adjusted 5 Positions" Gold Star Reg

Origin of Tables

The movements initially listed in this table were drawn from the data base created and maintained by Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer. Other members may have added additional examples, and are encouraged to continue to do so (hopefully in serial number order), or at least report additional movements under the Discussion Tab at the top. Special thanks go to Lorne Wasylishen who has reported countless examples and, as of this writing (10-Apr-2017), still continues to do so.

Possible Errors

The data in this table was collected from internet listings, dealer mail-order lists, reports and personal observations, mostly at NAWCC marts. As such, it is subject to errors in listing, reporting or recording. Those spotting an error when compared to a movement, or picture of a movement, are encouraged to correct it, or at least report it under the Discussion Tab at the top.

A Note About The "Grade"

The grades of the movements are Canadian Pacific Railway or Canadian Railway Time Service. The grades shown in the table are those listed in the Waltham documentation for the serial number that the movements bear. Once Waltham drew the movements from the lot in which they were processed, or from inventory; and modified them, including mounting the barrel bridges marked CPR or CRTS, the movements ceased to be those original grades and became either CPR or CRTS grades. Thus, the factory descriptions of those original grades no longer apply.

References

Online Information

1901 - 1902 T. Eaton Fall and Winter Catalogue (No. 47), page 145.

Goldsmiths' Stock Co. 1906-1907 Price List, page 6
Goldsmiths' Stock Co. 1906-1907 Price List, page 7

1915 - 1916 P.W. Ellis Illustrated Catalogue (found online by Gordian), pages 27 & 28.

Waltham Watches Encyclopedia article

Waltham's Canadian Sales Office Chronology Encyclopedia article

NAWCC American Pocket Watches Message Board Thread


Books
The following books and back issues of the NAWCC Bulletin are available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Lending Library, using the Lending Library Form.

Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements, Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book").

Waltham Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide, Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1976.


Articles
Back issues of the NAWCC Bulletin are available online to NAWCC members who are currently logged in at http://nawcc.org/index.php/nawcc-bulletin/past-issues-.

"Waltham's Canadian Railroad Watches," Iain G.M. Cleator, A. Ron D'Altroy and Les Hesketh, NAWCC Bulletin, No. 244, October 1986, pp. 355-9.

"Railroad Pocket Watches in Canada," Fred Angus, Canadian Rail, No. 343, August 1980, front cover & pp. 228-248.

"Railroaders' Corner - 17-Jewel, 16-Size Standard Watches, Part 1," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin No. 375, August 2008, pp. 473-481.

This page has been seen 15,102 times.

Current Discussion: Main discussion

  1. richard beauchamp

    richard beauchamp Registered User

    May 10, 2010
    25
    16
    0
    Kingston, ON
    Hi, Kent..

    Your list of serial numbers indicates that some of these watches came from specific production runs, particularly in the later years. This raises a couple of questions for me regarding the 1883 CRTS watches that are mentioned in the Bulletin which contained the article entitled "Waltham's Canadian Railroad Watches".

    The first question, which may have already been answered elsewhere, concerns the numbers of A.T. & Co. 200 lever set and 1000 pendant set CRTS watches which was compiled by Roy Ehrhardt. As these watches are not indentified in the database, did the numbers quoted come from another source, or are they an estmate?

    The second question deals with the number of 1883 CRTS watches that remain in circulation. The Price Guides estimates that there are fewer than 1000 of the 4020 of the 1883 CPR watches left. Does it then follow, that there are fewer than 300 of the 1200 1883 CRTS watches left?

    Thanks, Richard
     
  2. kent

    kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,390
    1,683
    113
    Hi Richard:

    My apologies for not noticing this sooner.

    I'm not clear about you first question. I though that Ed and I had captured all of the examples listed in the Bulletin article: "Waltham's Canadian Railroad Watches," Iain G.M. Cleator, A. Ron D'Altroy and Les Hesketh, NAWCC Bulletin, No. 244, October 1986, pp. 355-9.

    Does your phrase "As these watches are not indentified in the database, ..." mean that I didn't identify the source of the data, specificly those watches that were mentioned in the article?

    I doubt the accuracy of any published quantities of either the CPR or CRTS model 83 watches. At some point either Waltham production records will be found that details, movement by movement, how each watch was marked (very unlikely); or after about ten or twenty years of people contributing to the list of examples, some patterns will emerge.

    I have different thoughts about survival rates than most people. I tend towards 80% or better. I think that most watches are out there, in family hands, and that collectors never get to hear about them.
     
  3. richard beauchamp

    richard beauchamp Registered User

    May 10, 2010
    25
    16
    0
    Kingston, ON
    Hi, Kent..

    My question was more related to how Roy Ehrhardt was able to determine that there were 200 lever set and 1000 pendant set 1883 CRTS watches produced, which appeared in the table. I don't see them in the database. Does this refer to your comment about the skepticism of the actual numbers of watches produced?

    Your point about the rarity of watches is well taken, as I only kept mine in a safe box for 40 years.

    Richard
     
  4. richard beauchamp

    richard beauchamp Registered User

    May 10, 2010
    25
    16
    0
    Kingston, ON
    Hi, Kent..

    This is in regard to production numbers. In Moore's book on the history of the Waltham Watch Company, he mentioned that when their sales office in Montreal was closed in 1925, the Goldsmiths Stock Co. of Canada, based in Toronto, were given the franchise to sell these watches.

    Goldsmiths apparently remained in business until the 1950s when they taken over by Birks in Montreal. I believe you already know of this possible connection. Have you or your confreres been able to determine if any Waltham records remain? Or, did I merely create a false trail?

    Richard
     
  5. kent

    kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,390
    1,683
    113
    Richard:

    What table of Ehrhardt's?

    If he listed serial number ranges and not specific examples, then I would ignore them since I don't trust Waltham serial number vs. grade lists to be 100% accurate. Although I haven't checked, I think that some movements listed by Waltham as being CRTS are reported as being CPR and visa versa. Then, for 18-size watches, there are so many reported that came from runs of other grades that any round number such as 200 or 1,000 can only be estimates.

    Meanwhile, nobody had reported another CPR or CRTS that wasn't previously reported since I put the tables up.

    Nor has anybody reported an error, and I'm sure I must have made some.
     
  6. richard beauchamp

    richard beauchamp Registered User

    May 10, 2010
    25
    16
    0
    Kingston, ON
    Kent:

    Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the table which appears in the October 1986 Bulletin article by Cleator, D'Altroy and Hesketh. They state that the source for the numbers of Waltham Canadian Railroad Watches shown was the American Watch Encyclopedia and Price Guide Two by Roy Ehrhardt.

    Richard
    Richard
     
  7. kent

    kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,390
    1,683
    113
    Richard:

    O.K. I went back to the October 1986 Bulletin article by Cleator, D'Altroy and Hesketh. Above the table they say:

    "... we have made up a table (table 1) giving some numbers extracted in part from the Waltham Watch Co. records by Roy Ehrhardt." and they reference the book you mentioned, American Watch Encyclopedia and Price Guide Two by Roy Ehrhardt.

    Unfortunately, I can't find where in that book that Roy put quantities on any of the Canadian labeled watches.

    Be that as it may, the only way to have arrived at round numbers for the quantities of these watches is to estimate based upon observed and reported examples. I don't think that anyone working prior to the internet (which are the people we're discussing) can have accumulated enough examples to have come up with an accurate number (plus or minus 10%).
     
  8. larry treiman

    larry treiman Registered User

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    Actually, Kent, the authors of the BULLETIN article cited (I don't have it in front of me) have referenced the wrong Ehrhardt book. Encyclopedia and Price Guide Vol. 2 is the big Illinois "Blue Book". Waltham is covered in Vol. 1 Encyclopedia and Price Guide (June 1982 1st prtg.), along with other companies. The 18s 1883 CPR and CRTS, including production figures for CPR but not CRTS, are on pg.29. The CRTS production figures are under the Private Label heading on p.82, yet some CPR and CRTS are shown as Private Label on p.29. Go figure! The '92 CPR are shown on p.33 and the '92 CRTS on p.34. Again, some variants are shown as P/L, others not. The 16s "08 CPR and CRTS are on p.49, and both are shown as P/L.

    As for these watches being private labels, I can't speak for the early ('83) CPR and CRTS. However, I have a fair copy of pages from a December 1, 1919 catalog of Waltham Watch Company Limited, Montreal, Canada, "Makers and Distributors of Waltham Products in Canada, Factories: Montreal Canada Waltham U.S.A." The 16-size CPR is shown on the same page as the Waltham "Railroad Standards" and illustrated the same way. It is priced at $52.50 and even has a telegraphic ordering code, Dauby.
    , and is the only 17-jewel, 5-pos. watch listed. Next in price is the 21j 645 at $62.50 (code Daughter). Top of the line is the 23j Maximus, 6 pos. WI (code Dactyl) at $200 and the 23j Maximus, 5 pos. w/o WI (Daffodil) for $###.00.

    Interesting too is a list of Waltham lines being discontinued as of Dec. 1st, 1919. Eight 18-size 1892 Railroad Standards were being discontinued, including the CPR and CRTS, leaving only the 845 and Bartlett among the 92's, and some "Church Model" 1883's. About eleven grades in 16-size were being discontinued, ranging from 23-jewel Maximus 6-position w/o WI and 5-position with WI down to 7-jewel Traveler (gilt) and including the 16-size CRTS.

    Anyway, I think that the listing for the 16s CPR plus the discontinuance listing is fairly convincing evidence that at least the later CPR and CRTS watches were regular Waltham lines rather than private labels. It would seem that other earlier Waltham Watch Ltd. catalogs must exist SOMEWHERE.

    BTW, the last run of CPR's in the "Gray Book" appears to be 23271001-500. I notice that you haven't any watches from this run in the list with the encyclopedia article; one might wonder if they were actually made.

    Lar5ry Treiman (the 5 is silent)

    [EDIT] It's after 2 a.m. here and I'm too tired to proofread again (I do it as I go along). Pls pardon any errrrors, trypogaphical orrr utherwisze.
     
  9. richard beauchamp

    richard beauchamp Registered User

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    Hi, Kent..

    Thanks for the clarification. I didn't pay attention to the "in part" reference. In this age of being able to examine a piece of information from multiple angles, it is frustrating not to be able to do this with my vintage watch.

    Thanks also to Larry Treiman for reinforcing my belief that someone out there has the missing information. Waltham had a sales office in Montreal from 1891 through to 1925 and yet there is little documented history for those 35 years.

    Richard
     
  10. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    "Interesting too is a list of Waltham lines being discontinued as of Dec. 1st, 1919. Eight 18-size 1892 Railroad Standards were being discontinued, including the CPR and CRTS, leaving only the 845 and Bartlett among the 92's, and some "Church Model" 1883's."

    What is a "Church Model" 1883? I've never seen that term before.
     
  11. larry treiman

    larry treiman Registered User

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    Hi, Ed,

    It was late when I wrote that, and I probably should have clarified the "Church Model" reference. "Church Model" appears to have been used mainly in Canada as a "synonym" for the 18-size "1883 Model" and is named for Duane H. Church, who joined Waltham in 1882 and is credited with the design of the 1883 model.

    Charles Moore, in his book "Timing a Century" describes Church as "....a distinguished member of the long line of Waltham inventors...." Church died in 1905, but apparently had a great influence on Waltham watches during during his tenure at Waltham, mostly under under Ezra Fitch.

    The first time I heard of the '83 model referred to as the Church model was about 40 years ago by a Canadian jeweller/railroad watch inspector. At first I thought it might be some "unofficial" usage, but seeing the '83 model referred to as "18-size, Church Model" in the December 1919 catalog of the Waltham Watch Co., Ltd., of Montreal, convinced me otherwise!

    I have often wondered why Duane H. Church was honored in that way in Canada and why I have never seen a reference that I can recall to "Church Model" here in the U.S. Could he have perhaps come to Waltham from Canada? I guess I never was curious enough to research it!

    Larry
     
  12. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    Thanks Larry,
    I wasn't sure if it only referred to a particular style or grade or to Model 1883s in general.
     
  13. larry treiman

    larry treiman Registered User

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    You're welcome, Ed. As soon as I re-read what I wrote, I realized that there was an ambiguity. BTW, I just Googled Duane H. Church, and right at the top I found that he was born in Madison County, New York State, in 1849. Well, so much for that Canadian connection!

    Larry
     
  14. kent

    kent Registered User
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    Thanks Larry and Richard:

    Now that I'd looked in the right spot, I noticed asterisks on the production quantities of the CRTS watches listed on page 82. That got me looking further until I got to the bottom of page 19:

    "Waltham Production Figures By Vernon Hawkins"

    Mr. Hawkins esentially describes basing his production totals on what he refers to as "the Waltham serial number list" which is probably what we call "the gray book."

    The second to the last paragraph of his article states:

    "Roy has taken my production totals and used them in his book. When he uses a production total based on his actual observation of a sufficient number of movements, the estimated porduction total is followed by an asterisk(*)."

    The bottom line is that the CRTS quantities listed in the Cleator, D'Altroy and Hesketh article are based in part on the listings in the grey book, massaged by Vernon Hawkins and further estimated by Roy Ehrhardt. They may stand up pretty well. Maybe we'll find out after another ten or twenty years of adding reported examples to this list.
     
  15. kent

    kent Registered User
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    Moving material to NAWCC Message Board