Zaandam Resurrection

[davhill]

More Zandaam clocks! Yes, the bug has bitten so by tomorrow, I'll have four examples. My first timepiece with a Regula 26 movement is nearly ready to test and here's the next patient...
This has an 8-day Hermle movement but no window for the pendulum rider.
Heres' the one that showed up today...


This also has a Hermle movement, which is stamped '82'.



And the final example , due tomorrow has an SBS movement...



Not my picture, the vendors.

So, before my clock marathon begins, here's my plan. I intend to finish my 30-hour Regula version and leave it on test. Then, I plan to rebuild the others one-by-one and keep the best 8-day one.
Here then are two questions for you kind experts. Someone mentioned that his favoured choice could be a 'late Hermle' version. In this context, what constitutes 'late'? By the way, one of my new clocks has crosshead/philips/posidrive case screws rather than slot heads - does this denote late? The screws look original to me.

Thanks all, David

 

[Willie X]

Late enough so that it hasn't worn out yet! 1982, not late enough!

To repair these clocks, you will need the equipment and the experience to doing bushing work.

These clocks you have aren't good clocks for a beginner to learn on but, if you are persistent at the "getting experience" part, they can teach you a lot.

Willie X

 

[davhill]

Thanks Willie X, I've already learned a lot from my first Zandaam clock. A horologist lives nearby and he said I'd done an excellent job of cleaning the movement and parts. He also pronounced the pivots and pivot holes as being fine. Of course, I might change my tune when I come to try starting the clock but I'll see. However, I used my own photo guide to strip and reassemble the movement, I renewed the French polish on the case, cut new side glasses and polished all the brassware to a more than acceptable finish. In any event, the fixes are mostly for me. Moreover, as I type, my very first attempt - one of Korea's best passing strike spring wall clocks is ticking away as I type.

 

[davhill]

Good evening all,
Now very close to finishing rebuilding the movement of my 30-hour Zandaam clock,
I'm in need of the answer to an arcane secret. On various parts of my clock, there are very small, black steel C clips.
Following instructions in these forums, I removed these using snipe nosed pliers.
Here's one...


My question is simply how do I replace them on the various shafts? I tried with the pliers
earlier to no avail. Logic suggests to me that it's a matter of either using this technique or
drifting the clips on over the shafts with a small piece of tube. Or is there something I'm missing?
So help, please, then I can finish the movement, oil it and have a test flight.
Thanks in advance,

David

 

[PatH]

There are tools for holding/installing the e-clips and various hints in older threads, but the search doesn't seem to be working right now. Perhaps someone who has one of the tools can post a picture.

 

[shutterbug]

Those clips are a pain. The don't fit into a groove like an e-clip, so they can be forced onto the arbors with a hollow punch as you suggested. They are easy to break when taking them off, so I keep a few on hand. Regula e-clip.
That also gives you a hint as to the type of movement you have in your Zandaam

 

[Jaap]

You need this kind of tool. It is used to open the clip a little so you can move it. Be careful just a little. To much force will break the beak. In Holland it is called a seegerringtang.

 

[davhill]

Thank you gentlemen, it's becoming clearer now! I identified the movement as being a Regula 25 using Cousins' web site and
the parts I've ordered so far fit perfectly. I've a cunning plan for the next task. My work desk has a stripy carpet underneath, on which I lost a clip last night. However a combination of my LED 'light sabre' and a fridge magnet tracked it down. So, my next attempt can take place upstairs...plain carpet! One lives and learns.

 

[shutterbug]

You can find lots of interesting stuff by using a magnet under your work bench
For lost non-metal stuff, put a nylon stocking over the end of your vacuum cleaner tube, vacuum the area and see if it's stuck in the end of the tube.

 

[Mike Phelan]

You need this kind of tool. It is used to open the clip a little so you can move it. Be careful just a little. To much force will break the beak. In Holland it is called a seegerringtang. View attachment 677190

£15.96 from Amazon - well worth it.

 

[davhill]

Thanks again Gents,

Shutterbug is right inasmuch as the under bench area can be a treasure trove! The hoover/nylon stocking thing is a good idea too.
One thing sprang to mind from my using a fridge magnet to search. There should be a flat/rectangular magnet on little wheels. If you could adjust the 'ground clearance' so the magnet was nearly brushing the carpet pile, that'd make a great search aid. Then, it'd be possible to methodically 'quarter' the area to do a complete search.

 

[Mike Phelan]

I use an apron and pin it to the end of the workbench.

 

[Simon Holt]

I use an apron and pin it to the end of the workbench.

I tried that, but forgot to unpin it when I stood up...

Simon

 

[davhill]

Well, gents, I hope you all had a Merry Christmas and I'll add have a Happy New Year before typing this update!

I find myself surrounded by Zaanse clocks in various states of repair! The one with a Regula 25 movement is fully reassembled now and on a test bracket. At present, it will tick eleven times before stopping and the chime side is working properly. The horologist that lives a few doors away is due to come and take as look so we'll see.

I also have two other examples, both of which have an eight day movement (one is Hermle, the other SBS) and a little oval window for the pendulum rider to peep through.
The Hermle one chimes perfectly but the tick count is seven at best. The crutch was wedged in the movement so I extracted it carefully and it all fits together.
The SBS one also chimes but the strikes are all over the place - I got 13 yesterday. This clock also will not tick, or tock for that matter.

Now I have the cleaning of brass and repolishing of cases working well, I can set up a production line for the latter two timepieces. However, having experienced the intricacies of the Regula movement, I'm very tempted to give the othe rtwo movements as wet clean. Yes, I know that's a hanging offence here but I have my reasons. Both clocks are dirty, as regards, dust and muck but they aren't totally claggy. Also, neither has springs so spring barrels, pawls and the like aren't involved. Plus, I have more of the clock cleaning solution I bought from Priory polishes. This did such a good job on the Regula's insides so I'm thinking what have I got to lose?

Flameproof overalls donned!!!

 

[shutterbug]

Intact cleaning is not a terrible thing if used solely for testing the movement. But if any of the clocks have barrel springs, don't do it. You'll have a rusty mess. Any intact cleaning should be a step toward analyzing the movement and taking the necessary steps to restore it. It's not a repair in itself.

 

[davhill]

Thank you, shutterbug, That's a very sensible way of seeing things. I'm still a tyro but it has occurred to me that if the clock ticks for a while then stops, there might well be some 'drag' a.k.a. friction in the time chain. Could be dirt, old oil or both, or even no oil. So it seems to me that an intact clean and a re-oil could take two factors out of the equation.
With the movement out, I could also clean the external brass finery, polish it and refinish the case before rigging the movement on a test bracket, the better to see what's going on. Pictures time then!

 

[davhill]

Here's an amusing development for you in my Zaandam machinations. I'd mislaid one of the weights from one of my clocks and was overjoyed to find it hidden away today. In the process of putting it on the relevent clock. It slipped and fell down a manhole in my outhouse. I wasn't too worried as the floor of the manhole has a nice, soft muddy base. believe it or not, the weight bounced and disappeared with amazing precision down a six-inch plastic drainpipe. Guess what? The pipe is a main water drain that goes off underground for many yards. The weight is gone for ever.

It's actually cheaper to buy another clock for parts than to get a single weight so I have the pictured clock (with weights and all the finery) in my eBay watch list. So, while I see if I can do the deal, I can research the Erdische movement?

 

[shutterbug]

I hope it doesn't plug things up and cause you flooding issues! Yikes!

 

[davhill]

Fortunately it can't. The pipe feeds into a large underground sump that drains into a stream lower down the valley. The only way into the system is a drain camera and that's costly. Never mind, the weight will entertain some archaeologists in the distant future!

 

[shutterbug]

Lol!

 

[davhill]

Frustration!!! I now have two Zaanse clock movements on test and both are in the same state. The one-day Regula one managed 59 ticks last night. I fitted a new suspension spring to the 8-day SBS one today and even in the warmth of the living room, it stops after 22 ticks (11 seconds). The Regula movement has been stripped. cleaned and reassembled and has been pronounced by the local hororolgist as being fit and well. I gave the SBS one an intact clean in ammoniated cleaner and this gave a lovely oil slick on the surface after an overnight soak. Both movements have been re-oiled (including a tiny dab on the pallets)and as far as I can tell, both are in beat. Help?

Distressed of Cheshire UK).

 

[davhill]

Hmm, it looks like my latest post has stumped everyone. The update is that both movements stubbornly refuse to run. A tiny dash of oil on the pallet arbour of the Regula 25 movement made it run a little longer but it still can't manage much more than a minute.

On top of this, the suspension spring on the Regula snapped. The snag is that half of it has gone missing so I can't measure up for a replacement. Does anyone have the measurements in mm as per the nearby picture?


I've also noticed one other thing on the Regula. One is that the 'tock' sound is in beat but it is weak. If I pull gently on the pear weight, the tick-tock becomes more audible. I'm still puzzled.

 

[Willie X]

Out of beat, worn parts, poorly adjusted escapement, all come to mind. Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

A video of the movement(s) running might help. Post to Youtube and link here. Be sure they are "public"

 

[davhill]

Thank you, shutterbug. I'd post a video but it doesn't seem to be necessary now. The movement is ticking away quite happily now and the longer it runs, the less likely it is to stop. It sounds in beat to me, 'tick' and 'tock' being equal. Two thoughts: when I've stripped and rebuilt a car engine, I always run it in as though it was a new engine. Perhaps what is happening now could be a running -in procedure. Also, I have oiled the movement, using clock oil and a syringe with a wide-bored blunt needle.
I have heard that over oiling can cause the oil to drip and drag the oil out,leaving the pivots dry. Now, I can neither see not touch any oil so maybe this has happened and the movement's dry. I thought of a plan to re oil, by dipping the eye of a small sewing needle to act as an oil carrier.
In any case, things are ongoing, although the strike side isn't yet working beyond the 'warning' stage.

As ever, onward and upward!

 

[davhill]

Good morning all!
I'm here again, seeking a little advice on the strike mechanism of the Regula 25 movement I've rebuilt. However, before going further, there is some good news. On my test rig, the movement is ticking manfully and has run overnight all by itself! It keeps on going, only to stop if I dare to fiddle with it. At this point, it gets to sulking but it will start again.


Here it is on the test rig. As you see, I've been able to get a replacement weight for the one that dived into the drain. This weight is a little fatter than its fellow and weighs more but I have a plan for this.

Now for the chiming part. here it is...



OK, what is happening now is that if I lift the ratchet by using Lever D, the strike weight descends and the complicated brass cam next to stop D rotates.

The first issue is that it looks to me like the ratchet should drop under gravity but this isn't happening. If I carefully 'persuade' the ratchet downwards, stop C comes into play. This then climbs up the ratchet and the star wheel on the back of the movement rotates so the clock will chime according to the number of ratchet teeth involved. This then is my first question, why isn't the ratchet dropping?

Question two concerns Peg A. It looks like this should engage with Cog B. The part of the ratchet with the peg on was a little bent so am I correct in assuming that Peg A should mesh with Cog A from behind?

As will be clear, I'm still learning so if anyone wants to teach me the proper name for these parts, please feel free. And lastly, I think that Lever D is a silencing lever to stop the chiming but there is no obvious way to keep it in the silent position, i.e. ratchet lifted and disengaged. So, is that its role and what am I missing?

Many thanks, David

 

[shutterbug]

Peg A looks like the rack tail. It falls onto a step of the snail, which isn't in place in your picture. It's at the lower end of the hour cannon.

 

[davhill]

Hi shutterbug! You are absolutely right inasmuch as 'Peg A' on the rack is not meant to engage with the 'Cog B' which is the minute wheel according to my parts diagram (below). The same source tells me that what I called the Locking Lever is in fact the Alert Lever. I still haven't figured out what this is for.




So I went back to the pictures I'd taken while stripping the movement.
Here's what I found...



Look very carefully and you'll see that what I called 'Peg A' on the ratchet is as near the camera as the edge of the snail, Look still more carefully, by the C clip that secures the ratchet and you'll see the part with 'Peg A' on the end has a bend in it.
And there's the rub. I must have inadvertantly flattened this bend and this prevented Peg A from being acted on by the snail!

So, thank you very much for clueing me in.

I'll take the movement off the test rig so I can ensure nothing is fouling and all being well, my Regula rebuild Mk.1 can go back in its case.

 

[Mike Phelan]

What they've called the "Alert lever" is the warning lever, "Tripping gear" is cannon pinion.
Top "Locking lever" is rack hook.
The there is another (!) "Locking lever" for goodness knows what!

 

[TEACLOCKS]

My wife calls ours Mr. Balls

 

[davhill]

Greetings, depending on the time of day you're reading.

I believe I've found the problem with the strike mechanism on my Zaanse clock. After a lot of careful scrutiny, I discovered that the ratchet is bent. It was fouling the teeth on the minute wheel and so could not drop as it should. So, I pulled out the C-clip and removed the ratchet and used fine pliers to make it straight.
The ratchet can now drop under its own steam.

This is the movement with the ratchet at full drop. I may be wrong but it looks to me that 12 ratchet teeth will come into play at the next strike session. i.e. noon or midnight.



There is, however, one more thing that's foxed me totally and I hope someone here can help.
Please consider the ratchet for a moment. A flat piece of metal in the shape of a letter 'C' it has three distinct elements. One end is the tail and at the opposite end is a brass bush that acts as a bearing, carrying the ratchet on a pin protruding from the front of the movement.

I'm calling the remaining element the 'snail follower'. This is a small metal arm that has a right-angled section at the very end, forming a 'peg'. This peg runs on the edge of the snail and its position dictates the number of strikes.
Now, the snail obviously rotates clockwise when viewed from the front of the movement and the peg duly follows it. However, on my movement, when the straight part of the snail gets to the 12 o' clock position, the strike mechanism jams, as in this picture...



Speaking from my amateur viewpoint, it looks to me like the little arm with the follower on it should only protrude enough to run on the very edge of the snail. This could be verified by the pattern on the peg where the black finish has been worn away. As pictured above, the mechanism is locked. However, if I were to bend the follower arm back towards the movement's front plate, it should slip onto the back of the snail. Of course, it would still apply a little pressure to the back face of the snail but will hopefully unlock things.

Meanwhile, the time side of the movement is running reliably. I've fitted a suspension pin the right size (as yet untested) So I'm hopeful of being on the home stretch.

I hope somebody on here can clarify the way of setting up the snail follower.As ever, all advice greatfully received.

 

[Simon Holt]

Dave

The proper term for the part you call the 'ratchet' is the 'rack'. The part of the rack that drops onto the snail (your 'snail follower') is called the 'rack tail'.

The rack is gathered tooth by tooth when the click strikes. At the end of striking, the rack tail will end up being lifted clear of the snail. When the clock goes into warning, at about 5 minutes before striking, the rack is released and the rack tail drops onto the snail.

I *think* the reason the rack tail is jammed up against the step in the snail is that the rack has not been gathered, leaving the rack tail too low. Back up the minute hand a few minutes to free up the jam. Then lift the rack manually so that the rack hook can hold it.

If I'm wrong about the exact reason, my description should help you figure out what (if anything) needs bending adjusting!

Simon

 

[davhill]

Dave

The proper term for the part you call the 'ratchet' is the 'rack'. The part of the rack that drops onto the snail (your 'snail follower') is called the 'rack tail'.

The rack is gathered tooth by tooth when the click strikes. At the end of striking, the rack tail will end up being lifted clear of the snail. When the clock goes into warning, at about 5 minutes before striking, the rack is released and the rack tail drops onto the snail.

I *think* the reason the rack tail is jammed up against the step in the snail is that the rack has not been gathered, leaving the rack tail too low. Back up the minute hand a few minutes to free up the jam. Then lift the rack manually so that the rack hook can hold it.

If I'm wrong about the exact reason, my description should help you figure out what (if anything) needs bending adjusting!

Simon

Thank you Simon, I think that with the rack hook as it is, it will jam on the step on every revolution. As I suspect the hook needs to be able to go behind the step, I can verify this. If there's a track on the movement side of the snail, proof wil exist. Luckily, I have a dental mirror with which I can check...

 

[shutterbug]

The rack hook should not go behind the snail. It needs to land on it. Centered.

 

[davhill]

Thank you shutterbug. I'll set it up that way then. Is it the case that when everything is correct, the rack never gets into a position where it can jam on the step?

 

[Simon Holt]

I found some pictures of my Zandaam (pre-cleaning...) that show the correct positioning of the various parts:

Simon

 

[davhill]

A very welcome surprise in the inbox today! Thank you very much Simon, the pictures are extremely helpful. I'll follow them when I complete thefinal reassembly, then it'll be moment of truth time!

Thanks again,

David

 

[davhill]

After a fortnight's working on other tasks, I'm on the verge of recomissioning my Atlas clock. It's sitting on its test rig at the moment, having had the bent rack straightened and the associated hardware refitted. After adding the chains and pear weights, I just gave the chime side a trial run. Over several tries, it struck 15 or more beautifully! So here's another question, quite possibly the last before I put the movement back into the case. The question's obviously very simple...what have I missed?

 

[Simon Holt]

Clos observation of the rack should give you the answer. Does the rack tail land on the rim of the snail properly? Does the gathering pallet lift one tooth of the rack (and one tooth only) every revolution? Does it strike 15 times every time, regardless of the position of the snail? Does the snail rotate correctly as the minute hand rotates?

The question may be simple but the answers are manifold!

Simon

 

[davhill]

Thank you Simon,
Everything is as you say but for one point. It seems that the gathering palette isn't moving the rack at all. Regardless of where the snail is, the movement will strike continually unless I either stop it or the weight gets to the floor. Two other things: the rack tail passes behind the straight part of the snail as I suspected it might. This no longer locks the time side but I have to raise the rack to free the chime side. The second thing is that the error seems to be where I've arrowed on your picture. The rack can now fall under its own weight so I think I'm close to the solution.
It's a bit tricky to work on the clock today but I'll be able to get to it soon.

 

[davhill]

The ongoing saga of my regula 25-powered clcock continues but as an aside, I found this while browsing.
It's well worth a look...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ8yxjaxv84

This afternoon, I got a visit from the horologist who lives nearby (he's known as 'Clockwork John' round here!). He found out, in moments, that the movement was stopping because the hour wheel was tight. He thought the washer on it may be one washer too many. His just fiddling with the movement on its test bar now has it ticking away happliy.

So, the remaining problem lies with the rack. John said it was bent out of shape. He advised me to get a copy of the De Carle book. At 309 pages, this seems rather daunting but I'll keep an eye out for a copy or download.

As things stand, the clock will try to strike but then it won't stop striking. It seems that the lever that mates with the rack should stop at the lowest tooth but it misses. Meanwhile, I'm browsing You Tube to look for applicabe videos so we'll see.

The good news is that the case, face and brasswork are all ready for reassembly so once the strike issue is solved, I can get the clock back together and on the wall.

 

[davhill]

HelloAll,

I just found a post with a Regula 25 movement that's doing exactly what mine does at strike time.
It's a post by Phil McIniss and it's at this link...

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/regula-25-strike-train-doesnt-lock.144645/

Not wishing to hijack Phil's post, I see the gist of the answers but I just need a little clarification.

Here's Phil's clock movement - it's a cuckoo clock with dancers.



The advice given is that the rack isn't locking because the gathering palette isn't properly aligned with the mechanism. Therefore, the rack can't engage as it should.

A suggested fix is to loosen/pull off the gathering palette and turn it a little anticlockwise so the groove and the pin on the locking lever marry up positively.

Looking back at my disassembly pictures, I must have removed the gathering palette to remove the strike release lever along with the other moving parts.

So, before I have a go, have I marked the picture correctly?

Looking forward to a response...thank you.

 

[davhill]

Latest! I saw a You Tube video of a man setting up a movement with a three hammer strike arrangement. During this, he told me about putting the warning pin in a particular position, and setting the gathering palette at a certain point when the clock had just finished striking.
The snag is, it wasn't a Regula 25 so if I could find the same information for mine, I'd be able to set it up.

Any ideas at all? TIA

 

[davhill]

Nobody? Shame...

I think what I must do is set the warning wheel (fan wheel), snail and tripping gear in the correct orientation with the movement set to a given place. If this is correct, can anyone point me towards a web page that shows where everything should be?

Thank you, David

 

[davhill]

Have I foxed everybody with my question? Since there have been no replies, I've done more research and in doing so, I came across this...



It clears things up to some extent, as does this...



I've also done some heavy thinking and this has solved one mystery. In their exploded diagram of the 25 movement, Regula refer to the alert lever, number 18 on here...



So what is an alert lever? Studying the diagram and the movement shows that this lever is activated by the tripping gear (4) on the minute gear shaft (6). Going onward from this, it seems clear that the alert lever acts on the locking lever (20) that engages with the pin on the fan wheel (13). The German term in the key gives the game away. 'Warnungshebel' pins the thing down - it facilitates the pre-strike warning.

Ok, I know the following now...

Where the rack tail should sit on the snail for 12 o'clock.
Where the pin on the locking lever should go on the gathering pallette.
That I must lightly stone the washer (27) on the minute wheel as there is no end float there with the clip in place.
The difference in lift between the half hour and hour strike positions.

My question is thus simplified. With these elements in place, where should the fan wheel with the pin be?

TIA, David