Yorkshire long-case perhaps 18th century

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by MartyR, Dec 12, 2017.

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  1. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Dec 16, 2008
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    This is an oak-cased clock, about 8 feet tall.

    The dial seems to be porcelain, characteristically crackled, and has suffered over the years from over-zealous cleaning - parts of the chapter ring and numerals, and much of the signature, have been worn away. I can make out the town name of Halifax (in Yorkshire), but I would need to know some maker's names to guess at that - my wild guess would be Henry Palmer

    The case is in pretty good condition, is simply but nicely carved, and incorporates brass mounts at top and bottom of the columns beside the dial. The brass hinges and latch seem original.

    Inside the case there is what surely is an amateurish replacement of the weight ropes, and no pendulum.

    The movement looks to my unpractised eye to be in decent condition.

    I know nothing of clocks but I hope that I can get some clues as to the maker, and an estimate of the date of manufacture. The clock has lived in its prpesent house through at least four generations of the present owner, which makes it over 140 years old, and she would like to have it restored, so a very rough estimate of likely cost would also be appreciated.

    IMG_0057.JPG IMG_0058.JPG IMG_0059.JPG IMG_0060.JPG IMG_0062.JPG IMG_0063.JPG IMG_0067.JPG
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    It's a white dial clock, a type of paint on an iron sheet. Pre 1800 in style I think, with what look like original hands. It has a Halifax or axehead moon which is a desirable feature. The crutch has been broken, repaired and then subsequently bent out of shape, an easy fix if it doesn't break again.

    All looks not messed about with too much, a charming cottage clock of its day.

    The BHI can give you a list of local repairers if you won't want to do it. It should then last another half dozen generations ok.
     
  3. David S

    David S Registered User
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    I wonder if the crutch was broken or that is the way it was made. The joint looks exactly like the one I am working on in the other thread.

    rear plate bushings 2.jpg

    David
     
  4. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Nice clock, the crutch has been broken just as Nick stated. The repair has been done in a way many did, just as your other movement.
     
  5. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I can't see an advantage to making that way, but it is a common repair method.
     
  6. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Well in my case the top of the crutch is a round section ie thin rod, and the lower section is a square section rod that is part of the foot. So some how they had to make that transition OR the original foot broke off and then the new one was spliced. in. If Marty's is also a round rod on top and square or prismatic on the bottom, I find it an interesting coincidence. I am trying to figure out what is original on mine and what has been replaced / repaired.

    Thanks for any help
    David
     
  7. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    The crutches were originally wrought iron, very ductile but prone to faults in manufacture, as they need to be bent to put the clock in beat that can cause them to delaminate and fracture. If a repair is not joining the two bits together again I imagine they will just use what they have.
     
  8. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Nice longcase. I can't find a Henry Palmer in Halifax listed but the dial does as Nick said fit into the first period of painted dial longcase clocks, 1770-1800 and the lack of a falseplate indicates the earlier part of that period. The dot-dash border suggests the dial may be by Osborne who is known to have used such a pattern around the painted corners.
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I like the dial, I think there is enough left of the decoration to be able to tell the time easily, which is its purpose.

    On that basis, were it mine, I would not have it repainted.
     
  10. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    The owner tells me that she has no intention of touching the dial, which she thinks is wonderful as it is :) She just wants to get it working .....

    [quote="jmclaugh]I can't find a Henry Palmer in Halifax listed[/quote]
    Where can I find a lsit of makers in Halifax in the appropriate time range/ I suspect that looking for a name match from the list by looking at the dial, and trying to find the appropriate number of letters in the name and maybe identifying a couple of letter matches, might just work.

    Thanks everyone for your interest and help.
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I have the book of Yorkshire clockmakers at home that may help, but this may be a retailer with no clockmaking history to warrant an entry. I will look this evening.
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    Sometimes UV light can reveal details that are too faded to make out under normal lighting.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I insoected the clock dial under dahylight, lamplight, and LED torch light, and you're quite right that both the type of light and the angle of the light produced different results. Sadly I didn't have my loup which has a UV light available ... and the clock is in Lancashire! When I next go up there I will inspect further - Nick, would it be possible to extract from your book a list of late 18th century Halifax makers?
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    oops forgot, caught me just as I was going to bed

    There are around 150 names in Halifax, any clues at all?
     
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Is that a P at the beginning of a long surname, there is a Patterson and a Pearson
     
  16. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Pattison did moon dials pre 1800
     
  17. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    From what I remember (and from another similar clock (see video below), the square dial with the moon phases within date to around 1770ish.

     
  18. ragobo

    ragobo Registered User

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    The pendulum spring looks to be outside the crutch, perhaps it needs some readjustment.
     
  19. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I think you could be right about the "P". Do you have forenames of Patterson or Pearson, or the Pattison in your following post?
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    John Pattison recorded as working 1770-1800. Painted dial longcase signed Pattison Halifax recorded.
    Samuel Pearson first record 1790, in Petticoat Lane, by 1822 in Cornmarket by 1822
     
  21. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Much appreciated, Nick. The forename looks longer than "John" to me, but obviously I need another close look incorporating UV and other liught sources. I need to schedule another trip to Lancashire, methinks :rolleyes:
     
  22. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    The owner has spent some more time studying the name on the dial - and she now says she thinks it may be "Bromley". Does that name ring a bell? :rolleyes: And what might be th4e forename associated with it?
     
  23. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    There are three entries for Bromley in Loomes' Yorkshire Clockmakers, all in Halifax.

    Charles, working Mount Pleasant in 1834, Dent records him as early as 1820

    Edward, partner with William, 1834-1866

    William, according to Dent apprenticed to Thomas Lister junior, and became his partner for a short time before Lister's death in 1814. Was a partner with Edward at 10 Duke st in 1834 then from 1837-1866 at 10 Mount Street.

    If you don't know Thomas Lister junior he is one of the most famous Yorkshire clockmakers. Much more so than his father but I like his father's work.

    I have just bought another book on Yorkshire makers, when it arrives I'll look in there too.
     
  24. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Just had to look at the dial again, they all seem rather late for your clock.
     
  25. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    According to the British Museum the partnership with Lister was from 1795 to 1801, this could, perhaps, be by William in 1802 or 1803

    Term details
     
  26. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    But we have three Bromleys, very likely all related, and maybe the maker of this clock was the father or uncles of one or more of the three mentioned?
     
  27. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I think the link to the British Museum has the answer.

    I think it was an early product after the partnership with Lister ended.

    I realise Loomes says that this is pre 1800 but nothing in clock dating quite as certain as that usually. We know when the partnership ended, and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable that this could have been made shortly after in this style.
     
  28. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Did the owner find an initial? Is W a good fit?
     
  29. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I'm planning a trip to Lancashire primarily to look around Frodsham :)

    While I'm there I will do a detour to the owner's house and take some more photos, go equipped with a UV light (and others) and see what I come up with. Probably in about two weeks!
     
  30. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Good luck, the book I received on Yorkshire makers did not provide anything more useful, it was very limited in scope (though had pretty pictures and confirmed I prefer the work of Lister senior to Lister Junior, but then I prefer earlier clocks)
     
  31. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Here is a further photograph of the dial taken under UV light as Graham suggested - that sure seems to work!

    It seems to show P---ters Bromley or something close to that. Any suggestions? NTK?

    20180212_143546.jpg
     
  32. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i was hoping some of the usual photoshop tricks might help reveal more... oh well

    asdfasdf.jpg
     
  33. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Normally, all you need is a black light or oblique lighting (looking at it at an angle) to see the signature.
     
  34. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    Just from the letters you have been able to decipher, a likely name would seem to be Peeters, Bromley. Bromley, according to Wikipedia, can refer to a hamlet in the parish of Wortley, South Yorkshire, so that seems to be a possible fit, although Bromley would have presumably been larger than a hamlet to support a retailer of such a clock.
     
  35. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Given the positioning of the words I think Bromley has to be a surname, not a place name. Halifax is the town.
     
  36. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    My friend has suggested that the first name might be Foster and the "s" I see could be an old-style "&". But if (as I think) it's an "s" then the first name could be a surname beginning with F or P, and the whole name would be that of a partnership.
     
  37. Stickler

    Stickler Registered User

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  38. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #38 novicetimekeeper, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
    done that one


    EDIT> Though you are quite right to refer us back to that, because if it were a product of the partnership it would mean the style followed the convention for dating white dials.
     
  39. Stickler

    Stickler Registered User

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    Given the style of the dial lettering, the indistinct first character could have been one of twelve characters, and L happens to fit the known Halifax clockmakers. There are other posts about Lister & Bromley on NAWCC.
     
  40. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Indeed, I posted the same link on this thread on 6 Jan.
     
  41. Stickler

    Stickler Registered User

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    Yes, you did, and my post was in response to the suggestion that the first name might have been Foster. Is there a problem with that?
     
  42. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Thanks to both of you - NTK and Stickler - for your interest and help in this thread. It has reminded me of why I love this hobby so much - kinda like writing your own detective story :)

    My friend informs me that the clock is being shipped from its Lancashire home to the south in a few weeks, so I will be able to take more photos of the dial ... including trying black light as suggested by Sooth.
     

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