• The NAWCC Museum and Library & Research Center are currently open. Please check the Visiting Schedule for Days and Hours at the bottom of the Visit Page.

WWV defunded?

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,608
462
83
73
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region

chimeclockfan

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,348
337
83
WI
Country
Region
Some projected maps of a purportedly-flat Earth simply take the 1892 Gleason map as a basis, which itself bears similarity to what became the UN symbol. Underneath such a flat planet's surface is usually a giant mound of dirt with little to no explanation in regards to how such a thing works.

To say the least of the prices he wants. :mallet:
 

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Think we've hit the peak now... a flat earth clock and dedicated website.

Flat Earth Clock Shop – 24 hour Flat Earth Clocks: Get Clockwise.
too funny. This map is my favorite Flat Earth Map. It has the North pole as the center of the Earth and the South Pole as the circumference. In all I have read about the “Flat Earth” nowhere does any of the “evidence” say that the flat Earth is round like a frisbee. In fact the usually quoted Biblical passages refer to the four pillars as if it were a square or a rectangle. The physics of Earth weather with the poles being the coldest areas and the middle zones being warm would be difficult to explain with such a layout.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,077
1,521
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Just for info, not a religious discussion: Isaiah 40:22 specifically says "circle" or in some translations "sphere".
The real quandary for flat earthers is "what happens when you get to the edge, and what is holding it up?" Ancient pic's show a giant turtle, a giant elephant, or a big dude named Atlas. They don't show what they might be standing on ;)
 
Last edited:

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
They don't show what they might be standing on
philosophically this is the same question regarding what the known universe (the part we can see) is expanding into. there must an unknown universe to absorb our expansion
 

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,608
462
83
73
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
philosophically this is the same question regarding what the known universe (the part we can see) is expanding into. there must an unknown universe to absorb our expansion
I've often wondered about the definition of 'universe' in this regard, and apparently the astronomer's universe consists of space that contains objects like stars and _not_ the space available for future expansion.

M Kinsler
 

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
I've often wondered about the definition of 'universe' in this regard, and apparently the astronomer's universe consists of space that contains objects like stars and _not_ the space available for future expansion.

M Kinsler
It is necessary to understand the concept of the "Light Cone" - which is how far light could have traveled in a given time. We can never see outside our light cone because no light could have reached us from further away than that. So our known universe is limited by our light cone. If you accept that our known universe is about 13.5 billion years old then our light cone is how far light could have traveled in 13.5 billion years. But our known universe is expanding year by year by the speed of light. What it is expanding into is whatever there is beyond our ability to see.
 

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,608
462
83
73
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
Yup. Ever since I was quite small I've experienced a strange sort of thrill whenever I think closely about an infinite amount of space, which apparently is what we live in.

M Kinsler

which is probably why I never felt the need to try drugs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

mauleg

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 26, 2012
848
141
43
Country

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
For Trekkie fans - you may not know about the use of the number 47 in the series. In almost every series the number 47, or some simple multiple of it, will appear. It might be 4.7 parsecs to the next galaxy, or 47 minutes after the hour, the number on a space ship, or some brief picture or comment involving the number 47. You can read about how this came about in this, and other, links to The 47 Society. You might want to binge watch the Star Trek series and see how many of the 47s you can find.

THE 47 SOCIETY

47 (number) - Wikipedia

Star Trek[edit]
Joe Menosky graduated from Pomona College in 1979 and went on to become one of the story writers of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Menosky "infected" other Star Trek writers with an enthusiasm for the number 47.[11]As a result, 47, its reverse 74, its multiples, or combinations of 47 occur in a large number of episodes of the program and its spin-offs Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, and Star Trek: Enterprise,[10][12] usually in the form of dialogue, on-screen labels, or computer screens. For example:

  • In the TNG episode "Darmok", the computer of the Enterprise reports to have found 47 occurrences of the word "Darmok" in its database.
  • In Star Trek Generations, Scotty manages to beam up only 47 El-Aurians before their ship is destroyed by the energy ribbon.
  • In the Voyager episode "Parallax", we learn that the Emergency Medical Holographic Channel is 47 and that the EMH has the experience of 47 individual medical officers.
  • In the Voyager episode "Non Sequitur", Harry Kim lives in apartment 4-G, G being the seventh letter of the alphabet. The intentionality of this reference to 47 was confirmed by Brannon Braga, the writer of that episode.[13]
  • In the 2009 film Star Trek, the Enterprise was built in Sector 47 of the Riverside Shipyards, and 47 Klingon ships are said to have been destroyed by Nero's ship, the Narada.
J. J. Abrams, who produced and directed Star Trek, frequently uses the number 47 in his productions, including episodes of his TV series Fringe. In the Season 1 episode "Bad Dreams", aired shortly before the release of Star Trek in theaters, Nick Lane's bulletin board features a large centrally-located sheet of paper with only the number 47 in huge typeface. It recurs in the series: for example, 47 minutes being the maximum amount of time for a time chamber in the series to last, and there being exactly 47 shapeshifters.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,077
1,521
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
One must also understand that the "expanding universe" is a theory that can't be proven. ;)
 

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
One must also understand that the "expanding universe" is a theory that can't be proven. ;)
Hubble's theory from 1929 has never been successfully refuted, except that more recent evidence from the telescope in his name suggests that it is expanding even faster than he calculated, and the rate of expansion may be increasing.

But, yes, it is still considered a theory, although widely accepted as proven.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,077
1,521
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Like I said - it can't be proven. Accepted is another thing. :)
 

mauleg

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 26, 2012
848
141
43
Country
Like I said - it can't be proven. Accepted is another thing. :)
A theory is simply the best way to explain the currently available evidence. It therefore cannot be "proven" as such, only generally accepted. A theory is, by nature, a transitive construct which might be modified or replaced at any time with the discovery of new evidence.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,077
1,521
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Sure. We call many things laws, but they are always being tweaked and changed.
 

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Sure. We call many things laws, but they are always being tweaked and changed.
Yes - Hubble's Law is based on the red shift of the spectral lines of the hydrogen atom, presumed to be from the Doppler affect of the objects moving away. While that is still pretty much accepted, the new theories regarding dark energy and dark matter are questioning if all of the red shift is due to velocity, or if perhaps some is due the warping of space-time by the dark matter. A photon traversing the curvature of space-time would take longer to arrive than one travelling a straight line. Exactly how that affects the shift of the spectrum is beyond me, but seems to be a question. So it is definitely a work in progress.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
Just for info, not a religious discussion: Isaiah 40:22 specifically says "circle" or in some translations "sphere".
The real quandary for flat earthers is "what happens when you get to the edge, and what is holding it up?" Ancient pic's show a giant turtle, a giant elephant, or a big dude named Atlas. They don't show what they might be standing on ;)
Reportedly, when a savant was asked what the world rests on he said: a giant elephant. When asked what the elephant rest on, he said: a giant turtle. When asked what the turtle rests on, he said "Lady, it's turtles all the way down."
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,077
1,521
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Then she should have asked: "down to what?" :D
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
It ain't down "to" anything. No ending point. It's just turtles all the way down. :D
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
A theory is simply the best way to explain the currently available evidence. It therefore cannot be "proven" as such, only generally accepted. A theory is, by nature, a transitive construct which might be modified or replaced at any time with the discovery of new evidence.
Riight. A theory is a proposed explanation for observed phenomena. It's accepted until something comes up that it can't explain. Then it's modified. A theory is never "proven", but it can be so well confirmed that no exceptions can be expected, and we can confidently base our actions and predictions on it. The heliocentric (sun-centered) structure of our bit of the universe is a theory: the sun is at the center and the planets orbit around it. But it is so well confirmed that we don't dismiss it as "just a theory"; we accept it as a description of how things are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mauleg

Bruce Alexander

Registered User
Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,206
741
113
Country
Region
Sure. We call many things laws, but they are always being tweaked and changed.
Only if our powers of observation change or improve.

the new theories regarding dark energy and dark matter are questioning if all of the red shift is due to velocity, or if perhaps some is due the warping of space-time by the dark matter.
That's a theory. Dark Matter and Dark Energy kind of remind me of human's use of the concept of "Magic" to explain something we can see and don't understand. But you said it yourself, "perhaps some is due the warping of space-time". In any case, the theory doesn't change the observation. That would be kind of like the tail wagging the dog.

The heliocentric (sun-centered) structure of our bit of the universe is a theory: the sun is at the center and the planets orbit around it.
Is that a theory bangster, or is it an observation? Also, if one walks (or sails) off the edge of the flat Earth, does one somehow fall into the Sun or will they be consumed by Monsters? In fact, is our Sun the ultimate monster in our little part of the Firmament or are we the true monsters?

Meanwhile, getting back to Willie's original point, the longest government shutdown in U.S. History continues. No "theories" just an observation... "NOTICE: Due to a lapse in government funding, this and almost all NIST-affiliated websites will be unavailable until further notice. "
Source: https://www.nist.gov/physlab/div847/grp40/
 
Last edited:

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
That's a theory. Dark Matter and Dark Energy kind of remind me of human's use of the concept of "Magic" to explain something we can see and don't understand.
Very much so - perhaps even to the point of scientific deceit. They actually created the concept (which they admitted) by working the equations backwards to solve for a missing term in order to explain the higher gravity levels than were explained by observed masses. They found that the newly engineered equations worked fairly well on a wide variety of galaxies, so they are using this new theory to try to better explain the errors in previous observations.

In terms of clocks - to keep this related to the MB - that is tantamount to calculating the teeth and leaves for a "missing wheel and pinion" in the time train to explain why it is running so slowly.
 

RJSoftware

Registered User
Apr 15, 2005
8,442
100
63
Loxahatchee, Florida
Country
Region
when I think of "powers of observation" the electron appearance in two places comes to mind.
 

chimeclockfan

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,348
337
83
WI
Country
Region
Somewhat relevant and cool enough... camera was overexposed to attain more detail on the darkened portion of the moon.
I do not know of any clock that accurately predicts eclipses.

DSCN0063.JPG
 

mauleg

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 26, 2012
848
141
43
Country
Last edited:

THTanner

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,761
224
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
I do not know of any clock that accurately predicts eclipses.
I assume you mean mechanical clocks - and I am pretty sure you are correct about that. One of the issues that would have to be built into these is that the Moon is receding from the Earth at the rate of about 2 centimeters a year due to the exchange of angular momentum between the Earth and the Moon from the tides. The Earth's rotation pulls the tidal bulge slightly ahead of the line between the center of gravity of the Moon and the center of gravity of the Earth. That accelerates the Moon just a bit with each tide and decelerates the rotation of the Earth. Accelerating a satellite in this fashion makes it move further away and the length of the orbital period increases. As the volume of liquid water in the seas increases or decreases, the acceleration due to the tides also increases or decreases. But as the Moon moves further away the height of the tides decreases because the gravitational interaction decreases and the rate at which the Moon recedes decreases. Taking all of that into account in a mechanical device - or even a complicated digital device - is almost impossible. And the data and equations have to be constantly tweaked since none of this happens at a constant rate.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
TAT asks: "Is that [heliocentric universe]a theory bangster, or is it an observation?"

It's a theory that explains a ton of observations. We draw diagrams to illustrate it. But we never observe what the diagram illustrates. You'd need to imagine an observation point that actually allows us to observe the sun and all of the planets laid out like the diagram. Hasn't happened, and won't happen.
 

bruce linde

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Nov 13, 2011
7,914
1,062
113
oakland, ca.
clockhappy.com
Country
Region
re: EMFs... you're probably right, but i still wear a headset instead of holding my phone to my head. my mother was on a senate panel looking at EMFs and has been sending me study results for years now. bottom line? 'prudent avoidance' couldn't hurt. :cool:

as to flat-earthers and other idiots... sorry, can't help there!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kevin W.

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region

glenhead

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Nov 15, 2009
1,168
189
63
63
Williamson County, Texas
Country
Region
Um - while the increasing distance between the moon and earth and the slowing rotation of the earth are interesting, it seems they're perhaps not particularly germane when discussing making a clock to show when the next eclipse will occur. 2cm at apogee (the farthest point of the moon's orbit) is .00000000493% of the distance (round numbers), and at perigee it's .00000000551%. The tidal deceleration of the earth will mean that a hundred years from now a day will be two milliseconds longer. Maybe my definition of "accurately" is relatively sloppy.

Building a clock to show the time and umbral coverage of the next eclipse would be fairly straightforward. I say "fairly" because it would require the use of irregularly-shaped wheels to handle the interaction between the tilt of the moon's orbit and its oval shape. As mauleg pointed out, people were able to mechanically model eclipses over 2000 years ago.

In a futile attempt to keep the thread nominally on topic, on day umpteen of the gummint shutdown WWV is still running. Politics.

Glen
 
  • Like
Reactions: bangster

Bruce Alexander

Registered User
Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,206
741
113
Country
Region
TAT asks: "Is that [heliocentric universe]a theory bangster, or is it an observation?"

It's a theory that explains a ton of observations. We draw diagrams to illustrate it. But we never observe what the diagram illustrates. You'd need to imagine an observation point that actually allows us to observe the sun and all of the planets laid out like the diagram. Hasn't happened, and won't happen.
I've read it described as a model. We can observe other Solar Systems. Perhaps we'll eventually be able to venture out far enough to observe ours.
 
Last edited:

chimeclockfan

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,348
337
83
WI
Country
Region
I believe that this one will. The Antikythera mechanism likely could. Modern orreries which could predict eclipses were around as early as 1704. But heck, chimeclockfan, you know all that already. Accurately could be a flexible term in this context.
The first link is the clock to end all clocks... impressive, functional, elegant, and well constructed. Least to mention, a repairman's nightmare. :o:) Really appreciate all the effort that went into its design.

I assume you mean mechanical clocks - and I am pretty sure you are correct about that. One of the issues that would have to be built into these is that the Moon is receding from the Earth at the rate of about 2 centimeters a year due to the exchange of angular momentum between the Earth and the Moon from the tides.
I'm familiar with the Antikythera story although my idea of a mechanical clock that predicts eclipses would have been more domestic in nature. Imagine one of those Hermle astronomical bracket clocks but with the required gearing to accommodate the Earth's nodes and subsequently positioning for eclipses. Perhaps even a light-up sun that successfully casts a tiny shadow on the model Earth... the ideas are limitless, but the resources are not.

In regards to accuracy, the fact that astronomers were able to predict eclipses thousands of years in advance without any error is nothing short of amazing. With all the talk of super moons I'd have assumed the moon was coming closer than ever. I do not recall "super moons" being much of a topic prior to 2011 - perhaps it was just the media picking up on the typical phenomenon of perigee/apogee and running away with it. The term "blood moon" was not commonplace until 2014 because four total lunar eclipses happened in a row (tetrad), causing something of a stir in the media and among conspiracy groups who conveniently ignored that the same tetrad occurred during 2003-2004 without any calamity or cataclysmic doom.

In a futile attempt to keep the thread nominally on topic, on day umpteen of the gummint shutdown WWV is still running. Politics.
In the greater scheme of all things, time stops for no one and nothing.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
Antikythera is a fascinating artifact. It's cool that so much effort and study is going into it. :emoji_thumbsup:
 

Bruce Alexander

Registered User
Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,206
741
113
Country
Region
You'd need to imagine an observation point that actually allows us to observe the sun and all of the planets laid out like the diagram. Hasn't happened, and won't happen.
I had to look this up bangster. Evidently, the Voyager Space Probe program has imaged our Solar System. No doubt Astronomers could make sense of their raw images. I feel like I've accomplished something when I can locate Venus in the morning sky from my own backyard. :chuckling:

On that basis, I would say our "Heliocentric" neighborhood is now an observation.
 

chimeclockfan

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,348
337
83
WI
Country
Region
I feel like I've accomplished something when I can locate Venus in the morning sky from my own backyard.
Just saw Venus rising the other day before the sun followed suit. That does remind me of planetary transits that occur once in a while, where Mercury or Venus will appear to race across the sun's face in what could be described as a "micro eclipse". Such an event requires solar filters to view it safely and effectively. There is a transit in November but the next total lunar eclipse will be another couple years' waiting for American viewers.

Though not a clock, this timeanddate calculator is quite useful in regards to giving accurate predictions for eclipse viewing:
Eclipses visible in Madison, Wisconsin, USA - Nov 11, 2019 Mercury Transit
 

Bruce Alexander

Registered User
Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,206
741
113
Country
Region
Though not a clock, this timeanddate calculator is quite useful in regards to giving accurate predictions for eclipse viewing:
Eclipses visible in Madison, Wisconsin, USA - Nov 11, 2019 Mercury Transit
Cool, and useful in setting (or re-setting) a Moon Phase Dial too! :) Thanks!

I wonder if Elon Musk has a website for tracking Starman in his Tesla? :chuckling:

Wait, of course there's one: Where is Starman? Track Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster in Space! · Where is Starman? ...or many... SpaceX's 'Starman' and Its Tesla Roadster Are Now Beyond Mars SpaceX Roadster (Starman) Position and Data Live

Guess it captures the imagination. You can also track Voyager with that last website. I'd still prefer NASA over "SpaceX" but I'm old school and lived through the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs. I suppose that the Engineers and Scientist have to go where the money is. We'd probably have to borrow the money from China if we wanted to go to the Moon again. Politics.
 

Clocks In The Grove

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Dec 3, 2011
89
8
8
Oregon
Country
Region
Is the Antikythera going to be defunded also or just WWV ? Is there still interest in in the "The defunding of WWV" or should this thread be moved out of clock repair?
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
I had to look this up bangster. Evidently, the Voyager Space Probe program has imaged our Solar System. No doubt Astronomers could make sense of their raw images. I feel like I've accomplished something when I can locate Venus in the morning sky from my own backyard. :chuckling:

On that basis, I would say our "Heliocentric" neighborhood is now an observation.
And I would say "it's really, really well confirmed.":coolsign:
 

coldwar

Registered User
May 20, 2009
266
3
18
www.hoagsclockshop.com
Country
Threatening to cut this and that program makes our elected people seem like good stewards of OUR money, when in fact there is a very little chance in this case of the threat becoming reality. Field calibration of any equipment continues to happen using this cesium based radio time standard, using mostly the 10mhz WWV sig, which in a practical sense is about as humanly accurate as needs might dictate. It is true rubidium stabilized portable frequency standards are now fairly common and fairly affordable, but the 'go anywhere' availability of the WWV signal reception will remain as a contingency. GPS systems with the passage of each day become further evident as exposed to attack by hostile adversaries, so again, a low tech day-after standard which WWV radio signals continue to provide originating from any place, not just Fort Collins, will remain.

Additionally, those in science and research, rf professionals, military ops, and amateurs use the WWV freqs on various radio bands to instantly determine conditions of terrestrial radio propagation simply by listening and observing signal strength, as has happened for 90+ years.

Here is my dedicated WWV receiver designed expressly for this purpose, which I cherish as part of my radio station, and a connection between my interest in radio, and my vocation in horology:

 
  • Like
Reactions: chimeclockfan

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,608
462
83
73
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
There are several different sorts of proofs. One sort is mathematical, which is unlikely to be overturned by any future research. Another sort of proof is scientific, which is based on observations of the natural world and which, like Newton's laws of motion, can be overturned by better observations. And finally there is legal proof, the sort we use in court. All that's necessary in this sort of proof is to convince a judge or jury that something is true, whether or not it actually is. In matters of human behavior it's the best we can do.

As for the Antikythera machine, it's pretty amazing and I suppose as a matter of personal edification I ought to learn what exactly it was.

Derek deSolla Price was a professor at Yale University and lived in New Haven, Connecticut. I lived there, too.

Now, it turns out that Mrs. Price (I forget her first name) was prominent in the feminist movement during the 1970's and was very close friends with Linda, a young lady I was seeing at the time. Apparently Mrs Derek deSolla Price and M Kinsler were, uh, sharing Linda for some time.

Mark Kinsler
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,895
448
83
utah
Country
Region
Did I want to know this? :?| (Yes, of course, salacious would be my middle name if it weren't something else.)
 
Know Your NAWCC Forums Rules!
RULES & GUIDELINES

Find member

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
162,493
Messages
1,411,297
Members
84,141
Latest member
watchmakersid
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,856
Last edit
Waltham Watches by Clint Geller