Would I Be Counterfeiting the Clock's Brand Name?

[Kiggsia]

If someone has a deterioated dial & were to make a new dial in a graphics program such as Microsoft "paint", then print it out on cardstock paper, attempting to reproduce the fonts & designs as closely as possible, and when it came to brand names, (most likely only coming very close to the original font style) would it be a copyright violation of some type to be using a clockmaker's brand name on a homemade dial?
Of course, when a clock has a cupped face, a paper dial can't be attached to it without wrinkles, so a new, flat face must be made, best using aluminum, with the needed holes drilled into it.

 

[new2clocks]

If someone has a deterioated dial & were to make a new dial in a graphics program such as Microsoft "paint", then print it out on cardstock paper, attempting to reproduce the fonts & designs as closely as possible

Of course, when a clock has a cupped face, a paper dial can't be attached to it without wrinkles, so a new, flat face must be made, best using aluminum, with the needed holes drilled into it.

I assume you are stating that you have a clock with a rounded dial that is deteriorated, and you wish to create a flat surface dial with your creation of the copyrighted / trademarked logo that was originally on the rounded dial. Is my assumption correct?

What is the copyrighted / trademarked logo that you are trying to duplicate?

I should note that you are most likely speaking of a trademark and not a copyright.

Regards.

 

[Kiggsia]

I assume you are stating that you have a clock with a rounded dial that is deteriorated, and you wish to create a flat surface dial with your creation of the copyrighted / trademarked logo that was originally on the rounded dial. Is my assumption correct?

What is the copyrighted / trademarked logo that you are trying to duplicate?

I should note that you are most likely speaking of a trademark and not a copyright.

Regards.

The word in question of a copyright violation that would be found to be typed on the homemade paper dial of my clock would be the brand name of the clock, such as Seth Thomas, Howard Miller, Elgin, Ansonia, etc.

 

[new2clocks]

The word in question of a copyright violation that would be found to be typed on the homemade paper dial of my clock would be the brand name of the clock, such as Seth Thomas, Howard Miller, Elgin, Ansonia, etc.

Are you trying to duplicate the design of the logo keeping in mind that the logo could be limited to the name of the clockmaker?

Regards.

 

[new2clocks]

To add to my last post, are you trying to duplicate the following logo for Ansonia?

Or, are you attempting to duplicate a logo such as the following Mauthe logo?

Regards.

 

[Kiggsia]

To add to my last post, are you trying to duplicate the following logo for Ansonia?

View attachment 756079

Or, are you attempting to duplicate a logo such as the following Mauthe logo?

View attachment 756085

Regards.

The brand names I have in mind are just the names, not including designs. Like Seth Thomas which is just regular printed letters, or Elgin which is a fancy cursive. I would attach pictures of samples, but I don't know how to do that without the copyright declarations like you have included with your logos'

 

[new2clocks]

The brand names I have in mind are just the names, not including designs. Like Seth Thomas which is just regular printed letters, or Elgin which is a fancy cursive. I

A logo can be a name. Think of the Coca-Cola logo. The cursive writing you see on the soda can is the name of the product, but what you see is the trademark.

Coca-Cola also has a registered tradename for the name Coca-Cola, so that it cannot be used as a business name by others. For example, neither you nor I can start a clock company called "The Coca-Cola Company", as that tradename has been registered by the soda firm and is a current registration. And Pesi-Cola cannot offer a product named 'Coca-Cola', as that name is currently tradename protected.

the copyright declarations like you have included with your logos'

The copyright notice that you refer to belongs to the owner of the website from which I copied the images. That copyright does not belong to either Ansonia or Mauthe. The owner of the website is the owner of the copyright and has granted explicit approval for users of the NAWCC forums to use images found in his website for horological education.

In the Coca-Cola example, above, the Coca-Cola website is copyright protected.

Long story short, if you intend to replicate the name of the clock 'brand' that is written on the dial of the original clocks, then you are most likely referring to a trademark.

If you go to his website (below) and type in the search box the name that you plan to copy, perhaps it will show on his website. Most of the content of his website are trademarks with some tradenames mixed in. You can copy the logo from his website to this thread so we know exactly what you plan to duplicate.

Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index

Regards.

 

[JeffG]

I’m not a lawyer.
That said, I believe trademark/ copyright issues come into play when there is money being made. If you are trying to fix an old clock and are replacing a dial with a similar design, I don’t think there would be a problem. If you were to reproduce the dial design in quantity and sell them, there might be some problems. Or, if you made a reproduction of a SethThomas dial and put it on a Korean clock and tried to sell it as a Seth Thomas clock, you might have trouble for misrepresentation.

 

[Kiggsia]

I’m not a lawyer.
That said, I believe trademark/ copyright issues come into play when there is money being made. If you are trying to fix an old clock and are replacing a dial with a similar design, I don’t think there would be a problem. If you were to reproduce the dial design in quantity and sell them, there might be some problems. Or, if you made a reproduction of a SethThomas dial and put it on a Korean clock and tried to sell it as a Seth Thomas clock, you might have trouble for misrepresentation.

A logo can be a name. Think of the Coca-Cola logo. The cursive writing you see on the soda can is the name of the product, but what you see is the trademark.

Coca-Cola also has a registered tradename for the name Coca-Cola, so that it cannot be used as a business name by others. For example, neither you nor I can start a clock company called "The Coca-Cola Company", as that tradename has been registered by the soda firm and is a current registration. And Pesi-Cola cannot offer a product named 'Coca-Cola', as that name is currently tradename protected.



The copyright notice that you refer to belongs to the owner of the website from which I copied the images. That copyright does not belong to either Ansonia or Mauthe. The owner of the website is the owner of the copyright and has granted explicit approval for users of the NAWCC forums to use images found in his website for horological education.

In the Coca-Cola example, above, the Coca-Cola website is copyright protected.

Long story short, if you intend to replicate the name of the clock 'brand' that is written on the dial of the original clocks, then you are most likely referring to a trademark.

If you go to his website (below) and type in the search box the name that you plan to copy, perhaps it will show on his website. Most of the content of his website are trademarks with some tradenames mixed in. You can copy the logo from his website to this thread so we know exactly what you plan to duplicate.

Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index

Regards.

I replied to your last reply but something went wrong so i must type it out all over again. I went to the clock trademark website but couldnt find just the name Elgin. But i am attaching a picture of how close the Windows "paint" program can come to the way the word "Elgin" is printed on the dial of a clock I saw at a flea market where i buy clocks & try to fix them as much as i am able to. I have also attached a picture of a clock with the Elgin name I am wanting to replicate with the paint program font. I would like to include the name Elgin with this paint program font on a new dial for this Elgin clock I mentioned that I saw at a flea market, or do the same thing with what ever other brand clock I might buy in the near future, if it doesn't violate copyright laws.

 

[Tim Orr]

Good evening, Kiggsia!

A copyright is accorded to an original work from the instant it is created. The things we call "names" of companies are not original works or subject to copyright. So, Elgin, Mauthe, Ansonia, etc. are not copyrights, regardless of whether they appear as text only or as fancy text or artwork.

A trademark is a mark associated with a particular company and used in trade.

If you want to find out if a mark is trademarked in the USA, you would go to USPTO.gov (case is immaterial). Start with the "Basic Word Search." Only "LIVE" listings would be relevant, not the "DEAD" ones. Mikrolisk is not the appropriate authority for whether or not a mark is a trademark in the USA.

All that said, bear in mind that I am not a lawyer and not qualified to give legal advice. If you want to be truly rigorous about it, you would need to consult an intellectual property lawyer. However, none of the things you are referring to are "copyrights" or "copyrighted."

In any case, none of these things would involve "counterfeiting."

Best regards!

Tim Orr

 

[demoman3955]

My attitude is "id rather ask forgiveness then permission

 

[Raymond101]

I think for personal use only . Your safe if the clock is for yourself. Also said I'm not a lawyer. If you're really worried and loosening sleep over it. JUST put a small dot at the end or one letter slightly different. The Chinese have been doing this for years to sell stuff with fake names just spelt wrong or letter different.
Just Don't go into mass production.
Or re sell it .

 

[Tim Orr]

Good afternoon, all!

I agree with "demoman." And with Dale Carnegie, who famously said, "Ninety-five percent of what we worry about never happens."

Best regards!

Tim

 

[tracerjack]

On an aside, I have applied paper dials to shallow convex dial pans with no problem. But, as to copyrights or trademarks, if the company is no longer in business, who exactly would complain about the reproduction? As noted, falsifying a dial would be unethical. Repairing a screened dial or replacing a paper dial with an exact copy would to me fall under restoration, and must be noted if the clock is offered for sale.

 

[new2clocks]

But, as to copyrights or trademarks, if the company is no longer in business, who exactly would complain about the reproduction?

Some clarifications ....

The OP's issue is a trademark issue, not a copyright issue.

A trademark is an asset, just as a building is an asset. A trademark can be owned by a person or a company or an estate, etc., without regard to the fact that the company or person that created the trademark is no longer in business. The Estate of Elvis Presley or the Estate of Michael Jackson (assuming the Estates continue to exist), for example, would fiercely defend the intellectual property that the Estates own against unauthorized usage, without regard to the fact that Elvis died 46 years ago, and Michael passed away 14 years ago.

Regards.

 

[tracerjack]

I should have clarified that if the company and its assets are not assumed by another, then who would there be to complain. In the cases cited, the assets were assumed by heirs, etc. While simply an opinion, I would think the trademarks of a very significant majority of clock companies from the “golden era” are abandoned and of no legal interest.

 

[Tim Orr]

Good afternoon, all!

While simply an opinion, I would think the trademarks of a very significant majority of clock companies from the “golden era” are abandoned and of no legal interest.

To which I would respond, "Probably." A visit to the United States Patent & Trademark Office website ( Trademarks ) would clarify.

Both the name (in simple text) and a specific design for a mark may be trademarked. Of the 5 marks listed for "Seth Thomas," 4 are designated as "Dead," and only one is still "protected," indicated as "Live."

Best regards!

Tim

 

[tracerjack]

I agree, but again, according to the internet, Seth Thomas is still an asset of a current corporation, CST Enterprises. So any clock company that was able to maintain its identity to the 21st century, I would definitely assume their trademark is still protected. But, I still don’t see how repairing even an active trademark, as one would do on a dial would be considered infringing on the trademark. It’s their clock, their dial, their trademark. How would making it readable be an infringement? If that were the case, then do dial restorers have to get permission from the company to restore a dial? I hope I don’t sound argumentative. I’m simply curious.

 

[Tim Orr]

Good evening, Jack!

You are correct that probably, as I said, there would be no problem. What is true is that the USPTO rather than the internet, is the authority for whether or not a mark is still protected. In practice, intellectual property lawyers often use a Google search as their first check to see if a mark might be protected. Ultimately, however, the USPTO is the final authority (in this country).

Restoring a damaged mark would probably not be any kind of cause for a suit. However, we have to note that in recent history, Hamilton went after Vortic for what it considered to be "confusion" of its marks by Vortic in re-casing their movements and selling them under the Vortic name. Hamilton lost the suit, but it did make it to court.

Best regards!

Tiim

 

[tracerjack]

I suppose there is no black and white answer to the OP’s question. Laws typically have grey areas, which is why we have lawyers. I’m still of the opinion that restoring a dial or replacing a paper dial is no different that altering items on a car that you owned. When you sell it, it is not an issue that parts are not factory original unless you claim they are when they are not.