Wooden movement ID?

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by Chasey96, Nov 12, 2011.

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  1. Chasey96

    Chasey96 Registered User

    May 28, 2011
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    Good evening folks,

    I just picked up a "grandmother" clock" in the auction today and am having a time identifying it as there are no markings that I can find anywhere. It is a wooden movement and stands roughly 4' tall. The case is in rough shape, but has inlaid lighter wood on the front. The dial numbers are inlaid light wood as well.

    It's beautiful and I am excited to find out what it may be and a rough age before I get too wound up ( No pun intended:D ).

    Thanks in advance,

    Jeff
     

    Attached Files:

  2. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Nov 26, 2009
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    Is the second picture posted the complete clock? Then the hood is missing.

    Looks like a home handyman special utilizing an old ww shelf clock movements.

    There are ww clocks known as "Chaucey Jerome's grandmothers. This is most definately not 1 of those rare clocks.
     
  3. Chasey96

    Chasey96 Registered User

    May 28, 2011
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    Sorry, I forgot I had taken the hood off. There are also two missing vertical pieces from the front corners on the center section.

    Here it is back on.

    Jeff
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2005
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    Geologist, US Army Corps of Engineers
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    The details are a bit fuzzy, but I believe the features are consistent with a type 8.213 (Snowden Taylor, 1980 table) movement by Elbridge Atkins. Concur with rmarkowitz that this is likely a handyman's special. Quite imaginative use of a circa 1840 movement.
     
  5. Chasey96

    Chasey96 Registered User

    May 28, 2011
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    I found the 1980 chart in excel form so I went through that with the clock next to me and it looks like a 4.1, or an 8.11 which also looks like the 8.213 you mentioned. I am sure I'm missing important markers somewhere though. If it was originally a shelf clock, where would the weights drop down to? Was it designed originally to have the weights dangle off the shelf? Inside this case, there is only one side strung with string and that terminates about 2 feet down from the drum it is connected to. No weights are in there at all either. How heavy are they typically?

    Thanks,

    Jeff
     
  6. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

    Feb 12, 2009
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    Oh my, although really far off of my regular routes,
    may I take one shot at this?

    What about Elisha / Olcott Cheney?

    There was an article in the Research Activities and News column,
    NAWCC Bulletin Vol. 52/4, No. 387, August 2010, concerning a
    Snowden Taylor update and this movement (Terry-type) is shown IMO.

    The clock, a Pillar and Scroll (?) was made for Norris Willcox, Berlin, CT.

    Jurgen
     
  7. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2005
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    Soaringjoy,

    There are several shop details that distinguish the Cheney movement from the one shown by Chasey96: the count hook comes through the front plate through a "figure 8" hole, whereas on Jeff's it comes through a single large hole; the count wheel retainers are in different positions (12 o'clock for Cheney, 4:30 for Jeff's); and the strike wires are centered on the access hole on the Cheney and not on Jeff's. There are other differences, as well. Later today, if I get the chance, I post an image showing the features that help identify this movement.
    Mike
     
  8. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

    Mar 20, 2004
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    Handyman or not a nice looking clock for sure and "someone" went to a lot of trouble,time and skill just to build a case for the movement.
    Does the center post have a hole for a finial to be mounted or this just a Broken Pediment Hood?
    Bruce
     
  9. Chasey96

    Chasey96 Registered User

    May 28, 2011
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    Bruce,

    I agree about the handyman having done some very nice work on the case. I love the look of the clock and the age of it sure impresses me with the fact that it will run again.

    There is no finial hole on the center between the pediment hood pieces. It is not broken, and seems to have been designed that way.

    Thank you all for the excellent input,

    Jeff
     
  10. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2005
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    Jeff,
    Here’s what I’m seeing on your movement, as illustrated on a type 8.213 (old nomenclature, 1980 Bulletin) from my collection. Feature A shows the strike wire arbors, which are not centered on the large access hole to the right. Movements in Group 4 have strike wire arbors centered on the access hole, so yours cannot be a type 4.1. If I am correct, the strike wire arbor material is wood for both (not wood for one and steel for the other) on yours (same as mine). In Feature B, the verge pin button should be a round (not rectangular) brass disk. A type 8.11 movement has a rectangular verge pin button. Finally, as shown in both Features A and C on mine, there appear to rings around the strike wire arbors and winding arbors on yours. Along with other features (4:30 count wheel retainer; rectangular end on escape wheel bridge; large access holes; no figure 8 hole for count hook, etc.), the sum total indicates a type 8.213 movement. If I am wrong about any of the features mentioned, then the designation is not correct. I’m interested in knowing if any of the features are not as I’ve said.

    As an aside, I believe there is a problem in the updated table that is available on line. I'm not sure whether you refer to the updated table or the older, original one. Movements with the exact same features come up under two different movement groups (8 and 10). This shouldn’t be possible, given how the table is constructed. For that reason, I’m not giving the updated movement type designations.

    With respect to weight drop, mine has an approximately 24” drop for 24 hours. In a shelf clock, the weight cord goes from the winding drum over a pulley mounted in the top of the case and then drops down the side of the case. There’s no reason why it would not run with the weights just hanging down from the movement (as yours is set up to do). I believe 30-hr wood works clocks typically take around a 4 lb weight.
    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Chasey96

    Chasey96 Registered User

    May 28, 2011
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    Mike,

    Excellent information. You are spot on in the details mentioned. I am surprised you got all that from the rubbish photo I posted. :eek:

    Now I am going to research how to restore this thing. I have seen some info on the forum here on that topic so I should have plenty to work with.

    Now to get my wife to agree to keep this thing after it's done! She told me yesterday that I have acquired too many clocks and must cull the herd! lol I am already not allowed to keep them running as I fix/clean them. They are allowed a single run through to make sure they are keeping time, then the pendulum is silenced! Communist woman....

    Thanks again for the help id'ing this thing.

    Jeff
     
  12. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

    Feb 12, 2009
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    Thank you for your input, Mike, very appreciated.

    Never actually laying hands on an American wooden movement,
    I'd better keep my mouth shut. ;)

    Did the American clockmakers keep to their specific details
    over very long periods of time? "Dedicated", so to speak?

    Jurgen
     
  13. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2005
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    Jurgen,

    Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I'll try to answer your question about consistency in shop details over time. Using the firms of Chauncey Jerome as an example, we have the following chronology (taken from Roberts and Taylor's Eli Terry and the Connecticut Shelf Clock):

    Jerome, Darrow & Co (1824-26); movements made by C. Boardman
    Jerome, Thompson & Co (1826-27); mvts made by C. Boardman
    Jeromes & Darrow (1827-33); their own mvts and also by Boardman and E. Downs
    Jerome & Co (c. 1833-34); mvt maker not provided
    Jeromes & Co (1833-34); own mvts
    C & N Jerome (1834-39); own mvts

    From this chronology, clocks with Jerome labels could have had movements by Chauncey Boardman (groaner; see http://home.earthlink.net/~mmbailey39/id10.html for an example) and Ephraim Downs, as well as their own models. The Boardman and Downs movements are quite different from Jerome movements, but I won't go into the details. During this period (roughly 1828), Jerome made an unusual movement, called the thin movement (see http://home.earthlink.net/~mmbailey39/id9.html), but it had a limited production life. It is also quite different from Jerome's standard movements, which I'll use to finally answer your question. From roughly 1828 to 1839, Jerome used three 30-hr movement types (5.111, 5.112, and 5.113). For an example of a type 5.112 movement, see http://home.earthlink.net/~mmbailey39/id19.html. The differences between these boil down to whether rings and/or cups were used around the strike wire pivots and winding arbors (no/no for 5.111, yes/no for 5.112, and yes/yes for 5.113). Compared to shop details for movements made by other makers, these differences are fairly subtle. Details about movement characteristics are described in Snowden Taylor's article in the 1980 Bulletin (http://www.nawcc.org/index.php/watch-a-clock-bulletin/past-issues-/453?task=view). As a general statement, therefore, the shop details in Jerome movements changed very little over 11 years. But keep in mind that, from 1824 to 1839, Jerome used the groaner, some Downs movements, their thin movement, plus the three standard movements. So, over that 15 year time span, there was considerably variability in movement design. I would say (also generalizing) that most other movement makers did not change designs significantly over time.

    Hope this answers your question.

    Mike
     

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