Wood Movement Project

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by Dave B, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Dave B

    Dave B Banned

    Jun 7, 2008
    2,389
    1
    0
    Civil Engineer; woodwind musician; clock repairman
    Westminster. MD
    Country Flag:
    Here's my latest acquisition from eBay. I only bought it because (bedsides the price being right ;)) I thought the cutout in the front plate looked unusual, and it appeared to be a smallish eight day movement.The plates measure 6 1/2" X 8", which is I believe, small for an eight day movement. But it will be quite a restoration project. Some of the wheels and pinons look pretty sad. My cousin has some quarter sawn red oak in his woodpile, and has offered to plane me out a piece 1/4 inch thick. I asked him to leave it 1/32" or so heavy, and intend to hand scrape and plane it to size, as that is the way the original would have appeared.
    I believe I can insert new teeth on the broken wheels, and new leaves in the pinons, but will probably have to make a new strike side great wheel. That original is pretty far gone, and has a ton of glue of unknown origin on it. I am also not wild about all the solder on the back side of it.

    My copy of the bulletin supplement was destroyed a number of years ago when my hot water heater sprang a leak. Can someone look this one up, and tell me what I have? And please correct me if I am wrong when I say I think an eight day movement in this size is a little unusual. (The odd cutout in the front plate is not original. I guess someone didn't realize that these movements are usually built on the front plate, not the back.) When I make the new plate, I am just going to drill the usual round hole.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. oxblood2

    oxblood2 Registered User

    Mar 4, 2008
    755
    26
    28
    Looking thru the bulletin it looks like it might be a 9.1. One of the notes talks about it being "doubly compound of the cord". The barrel was turned down but left a larger cap to hold the cord. Not much difference in the size fo a 30hr. works. Made by E. & G. Bartholomew. It doesn't show that it had the figure 8 cutouts for the stike wire. with the bushing right under the strange cut out, like you say it has been done later. It might not have had that to begin with. One other point in the search are the #(3) of turnings on the stike wheel and also the 2 rings on the time side. Little things , but they all seem different. Main thing I think would be turning down of the barrels and leaving a large cap.It also says that this works had wood block behind the works that it was mounted to by screws the make up for the thinkness of the case. No rails were used for extra support, so look at the side of the front plate for eveidence of hole for pin supports.
    Robin
    If not this, we can keep looking
     
  3. Dave B

    Dave B Banned

    Jun 7, 2008
    2,389
    1
    0
    Civil Engineer; woodwind musician; clock repairman
    Westminster. MD
    Country Flag:
    #3 Dave B, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
    There are two mounting pin holes in each side of the front plate. Here's a photo of it thrown together (minus the strike hammer, because it is spring loaded, and I don't want to go excercising any springs until I have all the cracks and such repaired). For the time being, I just jammed flat toothpicks into the plate pinning holes. The original pins are all missing. That is the least of my concerns.

    No signs of screw holes anywhere. The odd cutout is definitely a later modification; it is not cut square to the face of the plate, and there are a couple of saw marks where whoever did it ran out of the hole just a hair. Judging from the edges of the count lever hole, I am pretty sure it was not a figure eight.
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Here's a photo of the trains lying on the rear plate - except now I notice I laid in S3 and S4 reversed. OOPS! That's what happens when you are in a hurry. LOL
     

    Attached Files:

  4. oxblood2

    oxblood2 Registered User

    Mar 4, 2008
    755
    26
    28
    #4 oxblood2, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
    With the mounting pins, that put the 9.1 out of the race. There are only 3 others pictured that have a single hole on the left for the stike wire. The first is type 4.31 by an unknown maker, the time wheel has no rings. the second 4.321 by Elisha Hotchkiss, but it has oversized plates and this is not it. I just purchased this clock and have looked it over a lot in the last 2 weeks. The size of the plates are 8 3/16 x 6 9/16 .The clock is posted under 8 day works? The last pictured is 4.322 by Atkins & Downs for George Mitchell or for G. Mitchell & R.Atkins,and by Ephraim Downs. One point to measure for the last works is the size of the verge pin button. it should be 9/16". This is for the 4.322, there is a remark the has "loose movement with ~7/16" verge pin button". One more user of this set of works is listed as E.Thayer.
    The verge pin button for the unknow 4.31 is 9/16"
    Hope this helps,
    oxblood2
    p.s. looking back the 4.31 has a square hour pst. Getting closer to the 4.322 !
     
  5. Dave B

    Dave B Banned

    Jun 7, 2008
    2,389
    1
    0
    Civil Engineer; woodwind musician; clock repairman
    Westminster. MD
    Country Flag:
    Verge pin button measured with a 1/64" steel scale measures 1/2" diameter (pin is also 1/2" long). So not 4.322 or 4.31. GEEZ! Leave it to me to find an oddball. :p

    Careful measurement of the rear plate (since it is whole, and not cracked or patched up) gives me 6 1/16" X 8 13/32". It is pretty good for square, according to my try square, but I did not measure the daigonals.
     
  6. oxblood2

    oxblood2 Registered User

    Mar 4, 2008
    755
    26
    28
    #6 oxblood2, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
    Hi Dave,
    Are the barrels small in diameter. The ones on Hotchkiss are, but don't have the large turning at the front. The 9.1 looks more like yours than mine does. There aren't many photos of the barrels, but the 9.1 has the works out and to the side to show that point. Post a phot of the side of the barrel and I'll look some more. The problem is there aren't but 4 that have the single hole for the stike wire and your looks to have been made that way .
    Robin
    the Hotchkiss verge pin button is 1/2". The set of works is about 1/2" or a little more thicker than a 30 hr. works. Again the barrels don't have the large turning in the front.
     
  7. Andy Dervan

    Andy Dervan Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Member

    Oct 23, 2002
    2,274
    9
    38
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hello Dave,

    If you could get a photograph of front and back of the movement without the string and either mail or email to Diana DeLucca at NAWCC. She could forward it to Snowden Taylor who wrote the book identifying these wooden movements. He gets really excited looking at the small details that differentiate these movements. Each shop did a little something different with their movement and Snowden can usually take quick look at it and rattle off "its a ...... from so and so".

    Andy Dervan
     
  8. Dave B

    Dave B Banned

    Jun 7, 2008
    2,389
    1
    0
    Civil Engineer; woodwind musician; clock repairman
    Westminster. MD
    Country Flag:
    That's not string; those are the rubber bands I used to hold it together while I assembled it. I can take them off, but the side of the front plate is gonna fall off. Take a look at my first post - the photos labeled "challenges" - the front plate is in two pieces. :eek:

    I took off the gum bands, and shot photos of the front plate, and of the two great wheels and barrels, from the bottom and from the sides. In the side views, you can see the holes for the mounting pins in the edge of the front plate. Also, note that someone thought this clock was supposed to have steel cables running it. YIKES!!! Fortunately, it didn't last long enugh running with them for them to chew the barrels up too much.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Dave B

    Dave B Banned

    Jun 7, 2008
    2,389
    1
    0
    Civil Engineer; woodwind musician; clock repairman
    Westminster. MD
    Country Flag:
    The plate to plate distance is 1 3/4" nominal. My very-near says the time barrel is 1.19" and the strike barrel 1.13", so I'm guessing they were probably 1 3/16" when new.
     
  10. oxblood2

    oxblood2 Registered User

    Mar 4, 2008
    755
    26
    28
    You may have the new "UNKNOWN"!
    Good luck and enjoy! Maybe a Dave 4.322111
    Robin
     
  11. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2005
    812
    54
    28
    Geologist, US Army Corps of Engineers
    Omaha, NE
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think I must have missed the explanation of why this movement is thought to be an 8-day movement. Everything about it seems to argue for it being a 30-hr movement, from the plate-to-plate distance to the large winding arbors. I don't see any features that are consistent with an 8-day movement. What am I missing?
     
  12. oxblood2

    oxblood2 Registered User

    Mar 4, 2008
    755
    26
    28
    #12 oxblood2, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
    That could be why it can't be found in the book! There is an 8 day Hotchkiss on Ebay right now that does have the same unusual cut out, but does have small barrels.
    Oxblood2
     
  13. Dave B

    Dave B Banned

    Jun 7, 2008
    2,389
    1
    0
    Civil Engineer; woodwind musician; clock repairman
    Westminster. MD
    Country Flag:
    Four wheels in the time train, instead of three. (Well five and four, if you count the escape wheel). When I saw four wheels, I just assumed it was an eight day train.
     
  14. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    2,557
    421
    83
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Have to go with Oxblood and Jerome collector on this movement. Nothing about it that suggests it to be 8 day IMO. Just a very badly botched up 30 hr. The gear train is conventional. The single biggest clue remains the diameter of the winding drums. Large diameter drums (1" +/-) are almost always 30 hr, 8 day drums are usually about 1/2"-5/8" in diameter
     
  15. antiekeradio

    antiekeradio Registered User

    Mar 1, 2010
    508
    1
    0
    Netherlands
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    based on the wheelcount (as far as I can work it out with the parts in sight) it is clear that the clock could never run 8 days.

    however, 30 hour will be possible with a limited drop. I am more used to english 30-hour clocks, that run the same duration on much more rope/chain lenght.

    At first the large amount of wheels had me stumped, until it occured to me that the second arbor has dual use of its pinion (both the great wheel and the minute wheel are engaged, the only purpose seems to be to change the direction of rotation)
     
  16. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    2,557
    421
    83
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The movement would be out of a "long drop" ww case, this can be ascertained from the tooth count of the escape wheel. Short drop movements, such as found in transition cases and pillar and scroll clocks have about 10 more teeth.....

    This is what the movement would look like before Uncle Fix-it had his way with it....
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2005
    812
    54
    28
    Geologist, US Army Corps of Engineers
    Omaha, NE
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Dave,

    As near as I can tell, from comparing the shop details of your movement to Snowden Taylor's 1980 Bulletin article (and the revised on-line version), your movement may be a type 8.213 (old nomenclature) or 8.226 (new). Makers were known to be Elbridge G. Atkins and Edward K. Jones. Users included G. Rice & William S. Johnson, Smith's Clock Establishment, Charles Stratton, Alfred Lowery, O. Hart, A. Smith & Co., Wm. Spence, and Edward M. Barnes.

    Mike
     

Share This Page