"Wm. Robinson" 2nd Grade Tobias?

[Omexa]

Hi, I have been after a "Wm. Robinson" movement for a while, I notice that there has been some discussion about this Maker for a while; that it is a Second Grade Tobias. This movement certainly does not look Second Grade to me. More Discussion? Regards Ray

 

[DaveyG]

I think that you will find a very comprehensive discussion, Ray, if you search Wm Robinson on this forum.

 

[Omexa]

Hi DaveyG, I will have a look. At the same time as I purchased this movement I purchased a "M I Tobias" for the Dial; this one looks like a 2nd Grade movement; not many Jewels, although it looks to be an earlier movement, it may have a "Massey escapement". Regards Ray

 

[PapaLouies]

Hi, I have been after a "Wm. Robinson" movement for a while, I notice that there has been some discussion about this Maker for a while; that it is a Second Grade Tobias. This movement certainly does not look Second Grade to me. More Discussion? Regards Ray

Not a Wm. Robinson by Tobias PL

 

[Omexa]

Hi PapaLouies, I can't see why anyone would go to the trouble to copy a 2nd Grade Movement; if you were going to copy anything it would be a 1st Grade, M I Tobias. I can see a bit of logic in copying one today because they are relatively scarce, but not back then, it does not make sense, or is this just a coincidence of the same name? Regards Ray

 

[PapaLouies]

Ray, The following points demonstrate why your Robinson #3835 is not a Wm Robinson by Tobias.
1) The balance cock is not engraved PATENT DETACH'D nor PATENT, DETACH'D or LEVER.
2) The M of the abbreviation Wm is not set as if an exponent above the W.
3) The Wm Robinson engraving is not bold enough.
4) There is a partial fleur-de-lis above the regulator scale that is typically Coventry, never seen on authentic Robinsons.
5) The Liverpool engraving is far off the mark.
6) Your Robinson #3835 does not have the hack feature that is consistent throughout the Wm Robinson line of watches by Tobias.

Please see Robinson watches by Tobias:
Wm Robinson #1915 at Post #14 by John Pavlik, Wm Robinson #1138 at Post #138 by Jerry Treiman. All under the Wm Robinson Thread.

Now to the question of copying a 2nd Grade Robinson. As I have posted in the past I think the Robinson and Tobias watches are equally well finished.
Michael Edidin in his article on Tobias speculated that the Wm Robinsons may have been shipped to America without being
adjusted or timed. This may be the reason they were considered 2nd Grade.

I hope this will be helpful in your search for an authentic Wm Robinson. Regards PapaLouies

Question, Does your Robinson #3835 have a Table Roller or a Massey III escapement?

 

[Omexa]

Hi PapaLouies, a very clear and concise outline about this subject, but it does no clear up who actually made my movement. "Michael Edidin in his article on Tobias speculated that the Wm Robinsons may have been shipped to America without being
adjusted or timed. This may be the reason they were considered 2nd Grade." I wonder if Tobias had these Pocket Watches (my movement) made by another company for sale in the America? Regards Ray

 

[MartyR]

This is an ongoing controversy, Ray, and an (as yet) unsettled one.

My own view, which is based simply on the basis that it is the most likely story, is that William Robinson was a watchmaker in his own right who for an unspecified period supplied his watches to Tobias for sale in America. There is a lengthy and inconclusive thread in this forum on the subject which you should read! It is, if nothing more, a good example of "research on the fly" and also of how easy it is to assume that theory is fact in the absence of sufficient hard information

If my hypothesis is fact, then your watch is a real watch made by William Robinson, altough it may not be one he supplied to Tobias.

Just to comment on Papa Louie's reasons for stating that this is not a "Tobias" watch -

2. The "m" of "Wm" is in fact represented as an exponent, but it is in upper case which Ppa L says is unusual. But then the whole name is in upper case which makes it like the typical signature of M I Tobias, One might suppose that if this were a watch sold in the USA by Tobia then the WRobinson signature would be made to look like the Tobias signature, so this element alone would logically suggest that this was the correct signature for a Tobias watch.

3. I don't know what is meant by "not bold enough", but I see nothing amiss wityh the Robinson signature.

4. The "partial fleur de lys" is not typical of Coventry. The Coventry mark is distinctly a star.

5. I assume that Papa L by "far off the mark" means "different from other engravings od the name Liverpool". The one on your watch is a style I have seen very many times on Liverpool watches, and I have no doubt about its authenticity.

I was unaware that "all" Tobias/Robinson watches had a hack feature, but then I have seen so few. I wonder why this was the case?

And finally I too am interested to know if your watch has a Massey movement

Anyway, in summary I don't believe there is any reason to doubt that you have a genuine William Robinson watch. Like you, I would find it extraordinary that any faker would bother to fake a Robinson. I do believe that this might be a real Robinson sold by him in the general market, rather than one he supplied to Tobias, and if so that would make it very unusual and interesting

 

[Omexa]

Hi Martin, I will have to look for it to see what type of escapement. I just have to remember where it is. Regards Ray

 

[Omexa]

Just to muddy the waters a bit. https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php...New-Zealand-working-movement&highlight=napier I wonder if it is a Relation? Regards Ray

 

[MartyR]

Nahh, Ray, that one is Robertson!!! Dont' get yer "in" confused with yer "ert"

 

[Omexa]

Well Martin it is early in the morning.

 

[PapaLouies]

Ray, For an illuminating discussion on Coventry Marks, please see DaveyG's Post #8, Squite's Post #10 and DaveyG's Post #11 all under Thread: 1843 key wind.
Back to your Wm Robinson #3835. I'm convinced this watch is a better than average English Copy of an authentic Robinson. I do not know who made your watch, but it could be instrumental in determining who in Liverpool and or Coventry was counterfeiting Tobias products.
If you have not read Michael Edidin's articles on the ENGLISH WATCHES FOR THE AMERICAN MARKET, you can find them in the Oct. 1992 & Dec. 1992 Bullentins. If I owned this watch I would take it down and look for clues as to its makers! Best Wishes PapaLouies

 

[MartyR]

PL, given that we have established (elsewhere) that there was a William Robinson, Watchmaker (according to Loomes) working in Liverpool from 1780-1824, supported by additional information in the Lverpool Museum database, do you have any reason for believing that this watch was not made by him? I acknowledge that there is still doubt as to whether Tobias also used the Wm Robinson name for a range of watches, or used Robinson as a sub-contractor to provide him with those watches ... but if we accept that a William Robinson actually existed then the simplest supposition would surely be that this watch was made by him.

Whether or not it was a "Tobias" watch is moot, but I am happy to believe that it was not, based on the differences between it and the "Tobias" watch that you identify.