Wish Granted - United after ~100 Years.

gleber

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A little over a year ago, I was fortunate enough to find this International Time Recording Co Master clock:

International Time Recording Co. Master Wall Clock

I've been dreaming of adding a Slave clock to it, but never put much effort into looking figuring that the best I could hope for was another manufacturer from a different era. Well, serendipitously, not only did one ITR present itself yesterday, but two, and they are both from the same order in 1925 (per info on the labels), so not only are they ITRs, but they are a near perfect match date-wise. I never expected that.

s-l1600.jpg s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg s-l1600 (4).jpg s-l1600 (5).jpg s-l1600 (6).jpg s-l1600 (7).jpg

They both look to be in good shape (waiting on shipping), but oddly they have different style hands which look a generation apart? They also have a slightly different logo from the Master which has a straight "International Time Recording Co." while these are curved.

My "1920s meets 21st Century" plan is not to hardwire them, but wire the master to an Arduino (or Raspberry Pi) and have it send a message over the internet via WIFI. Additional Arduinos at each slave clock will receive the message and deliver the pulse to advance the minute hand. I may send one to my son in FL or bring one to my office. The thought of having these regulated wirelessly from the Master miles away fascinates me. Or, I live not far from the NAWCC museum and would consider donating one with the same concept, or I know they have an almost identical ITR Master to mine on display (darker finish, but otherwise a near twin). I feel so fortunate now having a set and this set has definitely become one of the favorites of my collection.

Of course, the Arduinos would be completely non-invasive reversible integrations.

Tom
 

gleber

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Thanks Brian. My usual sources have been bone dry lately. I just happened to be searching for an mage of an ITR time / punch card clock and this popped up - caught my eye and I checked it out right away. Serendipity. I'm still waiting for the 9+ tube and floor standing regulator on my wish list to present themselves. :)

Tom
 

novicetimekeeper

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Next time you are over I'll show you where the factory was :)
 
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Kevin W.

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very nice find. Would love to find one for my IBM master at a good price. It may be found one day.
 

gleber

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Next time you are over I'll show you where the factory was :)
What is this factory or which you speak?

I miss the travel having been cooped up since the end of February. I'm looking forward to being able to travel again. We've been doing a lot virtual stuff, which is both good and bad.

Tom
 

novicetimekeeper

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International Time Recorders had a factory in Fleets Lane Poole. My Dad worked there for a bit as a buyer.
 

gleber

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Thanks Nick. I sort of expected that, but hadn't run across any references to a factory there. Lot's of other places worldwide - just nothing in the UK actually. Tanks for the info. Do you know when it was in business and what they produced?

Tom
 

Toughtool

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The secondaries look to be plain minute impulse (2 wire) secondaries. The IBM label (with serial number) indicates they are 24 volt DC coils. To operate the armature you need to apply a 24 volt DC voltage to the two wires for about a second for each minute's advance. There is no correction for a plain impulse secondary. You can advance the clock hand manually by pressing the armature with your finger, then releasing it.

IBM did make a self correcting secondary that uses two wires, along with a cam operated N/O-N/C contact set and a diode. Correction is by way of reversing the 24 volt polarity from the master during the 59th minute. I don't think these secondaries are the self correcting type because there is no cam, diode, and contact set. More info about secondaries here:
Development:“A Computer Based Master for ITR & IBM Minute Impulse Secondary Clock Movements”

My Time recorder originally had a wood stick pendulum but was converted to a synchronous motor before I got it (50 years a go). It looks like there is a lot of parts missing from yours. The motor conversion was an IBM bill of materials.
 
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gleber

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Yes, another benefit of this find. My master is a 2 wire with only one set of contacts, so an even more fortuitous aspect of this matching find.

I think you might be confusing my master and my new card recorder. The master is not missing any mechanical parts and runs fine.

My recorder is missing the pendulum and punch mechanism but that's unrelated to the master and these slaves.

Thanks,
Tom
 

gleber

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BM did make a self correcting secondary that uses two wires, along with a cam operated N/O-N/C contact set and a diode. Correction is by way of reversing the 24 volt polarity from the master during the 59th minute.
I was going to ask how the correction works, but found this: Re: Master-slave clocks explained
I thought I would post it here in case anyone else was interested.

Tom
 

Toughtool

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My "1920s meets 21st Century" plan is not to hardwire them, but wire the master to an Arduino (or Raspberry Pi) and have it send a message over the internet via WIFI.
Looks like my article (PDF format) may be a close match, with a couple of changes. I think Phil has already programmed a one pulse per minute part into his code but I don't have a plain impulse secondary so never needed it. I can check with him if you are interested. I would go with the ESP8266-12E NodeMCU version.
 

Toughtool

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but oddly they have different style hands which look a generation apart?
The hands look like the ones on my 1955 model type 565-2. Maybe someone liked the older style hands and swapped them. I know these are original hands because I took it off the wall from Cove Elementary School where it was installed.

Photo5.jpg
 

Toughtool

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Here is a schematic for driving an ITR or IBM Two Wire Secondary via wireless IoT device (or Arduino or Raspberry Pi Zero W). It can be loaded with software to receive a pulse from your Master Clock's wireless transmitter or load a revised version of my the master clock software and get the time from NIST's NTP server. The ESP8266 NodeMCU maybe able to run on batteries. I built a three wire master clock to drive an IBM 565-2 for Phil using a 12 volt wallwart and the NTP clock software. Worked great

My photo of the ESP8266 NodeMCU posted here is the three wire version. The two wire version would only have one transistor, one led, and one less resistor. The Run/Advance switch will advance the movement at one pulse every second.

Master_Driver_two wire.jpg View attachment 595313 Photo 13.jpg
 
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gleber

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The slave clocks arrived today and the seller deserves a shout out for the right way to pack clocks. Both clocks were wrapped in protective sheeting with foam pads top, bottom and in-between, then surrounded by paper wadding and boxed, then that box was put in a larger box again surrounded by more paper wadding, lots of paper wadding. If you ever want someone to ship you a clock, show them this:

20200614_093906.jpg

Both clocks look all original, including the glass, except I question the newer looking hands on one, and the other minute hand was repaired.

And the best part is both clocks work (even though the seller listed they did not, but I'm sure he didn't know how they worked)! I need to get a better power supply. For testing, I put two 9 V smoke alarm type batteries in series. That drives one just fine, but the other one needs a little nudge to get the lever closer to the solenoid, but will probably be fine with 24 V.

At about one second before the hour, the contacts close and the solenoid clicks (loudly - it would be hard to sleep in class if you sat near it), and then on-the-minute the solenoid releases and the hand advances.


Tom
 
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Toughtool

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Those secondaries look Great! The Service Instructions say the movement should work with 3/4 rated voltage so two 9 volt batteries may be .75 volts too low. That's 6 volts below the rated voltage. If you have an Ohm meter I would like to know what the resistance of the coils are. From that information we can determine the approximate current required.

I got from Phil and he did not include code for a single 60 pulse per hour output, into the master clock code. I don't know if you are into software coding or not. I think it would be a good project for your idea of using a wireless device to send a pulse(s) from the master via WIFI, and use an IoT device to drive the coil without hard wiring. I know my two wireless version electronic master clocks do that now, using an NTP time server for the time.

I figured out why I got confused with my posting of your threads. I got lost! I opened your post in the Electric Horology Forum, clicked on the first link (Wish Granted-United-after 100-Years) that put me in another post of yours (in the New Acquisitions Forum) and I responded thinking I was in the original post. Then I could not find my post. Then I notice the post in Electric Horology had been moved to the General Forum. From the three posts by you on three different forums, it took me a while to find this one again. Joe
 
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rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Well, now you have no excuse for showing up late for things:rolleyes:?

Neat stuff, a great melding of old and new technologies that were/are considered cutting edge. A lot of fun.

Thanks for sharing.

RM
 
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gleber

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Well, now you have no excuse for showing up late for things:rolleyes:?

Neat stuff, a great melding of old and new technologies that were/are considered cutting edge. A lot of fun.

Thanks for sharing.

RM
Thanks RM, but so far this is hardwired - no technology melding yet. I plan to inspect and clean and adjust and clean up the cases while I look into the tech side. It will probably be a while before I get to the point of actively working on a WIFI solution.

Tom
 

gleber

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Those secondaries look Great! The Service Instructions say the movement should work with 3/4 rated voltage so two 9 volt batteries may be .75 volts too low. That's 6 volts below the rated voltage. If you have an Ohm meter I would like to know what the resistance of the coils are. From that information we can determine the approximate current required.

I got from Phil and he did not include code for a single 60 pulse per hour output, into the master clock code. I don't know if you are into software coding or not. I think it would be a good project for your idea of using a wireless device to send a pulse(s) from the master via WIFI, and use an IoT device to drive the coil without hard wiring. I know my two wireless version electronic master clocks do that now, using an NTP time server for the time.

I figured out why I got confused with my posting of your threads. I got lost! I opened your post in the Electric Horology Forum, clicked on the first link (Wish Granted-United-after 100-Years) that put me in another post of yours (in the New Acquisitions Forum) and I responded thinking I was in the original post. Then I could not find my post. Then I notice the post in Electric Horology had been moved to the General Forum. From the three posts by you on three different forums, it took me a while to find this one again. Joe
Thanks for continuing to feed me good information. I found out the "weaker" movement was not weaker after all and just needed adjustment. The are several stops and when I adjusted them to move the ratchet lever closer to the solenoid, it's working fine now using two 9 V batteries. I plan to post some photos of the movement showing the adjustment points and what I changed. It might be a while before I get to that now that the work week is starting...

Tom
 

Toughtool

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Glad you got the weak secondary working. I'm going to look into using an ESP8266 NodeMCU pair to link up with each other to transmit an A pulse @ 60 per hour and an A pulse @80 pulses per hour along with a B pulse @ 40 pulses per hour. That should satisfy both the two wire and three wire secondaries using a mechanical master and it's master relay. However that may exclude those masters that do not have control relays and power supply. I will have to study some master clock contact circuits to maybe solve that problem too. Some good ideas here. I have noticed three Amazon suppliers selling the ESP8266 NodeMCU's for under $5.00 ea in quantities of 3 or 4 with free Prime shipping. It is worth $10 not to have to run wires. Heck, the copper wire may cost $10.00. Joe
 
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