Wiring suggestions for my 3 phase Habegger

[Paul Stairs]

Am now to the point where I am getting ready to do the really hard work - wiring my Habegger 3-phse motor to the on/off switch, the speed control (forward and reverse), the 1 to 3 phase phase converter and finally to the motor. (BTW it is a 220 V motor) I have no idea what I am doing and am going to have to have a Master Electrician do all this. My question, which I realize is a little off-beat, is whether I should be looking for an electrician who specializes in this rather than call my plumbing/electrical/HVAC mechanic out of the phone book. If anyone knows of someone who is able to do this in the Richmond, VA area, I would appreciate knowing about it. Barring that, are there specific questions I should ask before I shell out hundreds for a shoddy hook-up. Thanks to each and every reply.
Paul W. Stairs
Richmond, VA

 

[Jim DuBois]

To best answer your question it would be useful to know if you have all the parts you think necessary, namely the motor, the phase converter, the forward reverse switch, the speed control etc.? Is your phase converter rotary, or a capacitor style, or and electronic version? Do you have 220 VAC at the machine site? The correct answers to your questions may be different depending on what you have as a starting point. Also, is this a hobbyist lathe in a residential location, or a commercial installation? Are you subject to any local codes for your installation? Obviously the desired installation would be proper, work as intended, and above all, be safe. If you have all the parts a commercial electrician may well be able to complete the installation, but that can be risky, as wiring a house, wiring a commercial building, and wiring your machine are only marginally related in skills necessary for a good job. It is not rocket science but wiring of machine controls is different than the other mentioned skills in electricians. I have always done my own wiring, but I have had both commercial and amateur licenses in related fields, as well as a lot of experience, so my skill set may be different than yours. I suspect most electricians will tell you "no problem" when you ask them if they can do the work. But, you are correct in thinking you may have shoddy results if not careful. Please publish details on what you have, where used, etc, and then perhaps we can be more helpful.

 

[Jim DuBois]

http://metalwebnews.com/howto/phase-converter/3-phase.pdf may supply some ideas and details

 

[AllThumbz]

Paul:

More information is necessary. If it has a 3 phase motor requiring conversion to single phase, you can use a variable frequency drive VFD to do the conversion. There are many sites that explain this in depth.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Am now to the point where I am getting ready to do the really hard work - wiring my Habegger 3-phse motor to the on/off switch, the speed control (forward and reverse), the 1 to 3 phase phase converter and finally to the motor. (BTW it is a 220 V motor) I have no idea what I am doing and am going to have to have a Master Electrician do all this. My question, which I realize is a little off-beat, is whether I should be looking for an electrician who specializes in this rather than call my plumbing/electrical/HVAC mechanic out of the phone book. If anyone knows of someone who is able to do this in the Richmond, VA area, I would appreciate knowing about it. Barring that, are there specific questions I should ask before I shell out hundreds for a shoddy hook-up. Thanks to each and every reply.
Paul W. Stairs
Richmond, VA

Paul
Personally, I worked for a power utility for 35 years and part of what I did was to assist large and small electrical contractors with their issues. So I am fortunately able to do my own electrical work. Jim is correct in suggesting that you cautious of who you hire. In my experience there will always be exceptions, but in general, the residential electrician will not be aware of the issues that a machine operator (Hobby or not) must deal with. I would suggest that you load up your motor and visit a motor repair/sales facility in your area. They will be able to explain each option and most likely even demonstrate them.
Again as Jim has mentioned, there will be three options as follows.

(1) the static or capacitor version. While very inexpensive, their limitations are not worth the cost saving in your case to make a long story short. My opinion of course.

(2) Rotary phase converter. (Commercial version or made up) It is a economical way to supply very versatile three phase power. It can also be easily sized without much extra cost to handle any number of extra three phase loads you may add in the future, either one or all at the same time. This is the option that I use, but there is one caution. They utilize a motor to convert the power to three phase and it can make a distracting noise. For my personal use, I have the converter in the garage and operate my machines in the basement with out converter sound.

(3) As also mentioned there are electronic solid state units. While they can be expensive, they can be superb for what they are designed for and can offer variable speed drive, but sometimes be a pain for machine tool use. They may be limited to single motor use with controls that are funky and unusual to use with machine tools and possibly even unsafe. While these units may very well meet your needs, it is best to have them demonstrated before purchase.

(4) If you have a new machine under warrantee, check to see if the warrantee is voided by the use of phase converters. Some manufactures claim unbalanced phases from all types of converters can cause a motor hammering action that will damage the machine. While I doubt this will effect you in any way, I feel it should to be mentioned.

In my experience, Motor sales and service facilities can provide made up assemblies that are easily installed by simply plugging them in or hard wired by any reputable electrician.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[AllThumbz]

Paul,

By way of disclaimer, I founded this site.
If you want to dive into this in more depth, I suggest perusing this link, and googling others.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/electrical-issues-power-your-machines-shop.23/

You can do this yourself, despite what has been mentioned. I would also check www.automationdirect.com/adc/Home.

They sell VFDs and related components, and will walk you through.

Nels

 

[Dick Feldman]

Like Jerry Kieffer, I once was a gas and electric energy consultant with a large utility company. (I also used to live in Wisconsin, as well) Jerry made some good points but I would like to add a bit. With conversions to 3 phase power, sometimes I found that the tail seemed to wag the dog.
In the long and short run, it might be better to swap the existing motor out for a single phase (120 volt if possible) motor. What the lathe "wants" is to have a spinning shaft. It is not material what the power source is. Normally the same thing can be done with either a single phase motor or a three phase motor. The reason for three phase motors is cost. Large motors are not available in single phase and small motors are less expensive to build as three phase. In an industrial application with three phase power available, it is natural to buy all motors wound for three phase. Normally the breaking point between single and three phase is at five horsepower. You can buy a 5 horsepower single phase motor, but you will not likely be able to buy a seven and a half horsepower, single phase motor. Those are the normal industry increments on motor size. To require a seven and a half horsepower motor, your lathe would have to be a monster. If your need is five or less horsepower and you do not have an existing three phase service, you probably will be better off to swap out the motor for a single phase motor. That swap will likely be to a 120 volt motor that can be plugged into the wall without any modification to your in house wiring.
My experience with phase converters has not been good. Regardless of which type you use, it is another machine to maintain, and they are all expensive. Reliability is always a factor with converters and they are generally not reliable.
Jerry was correct in that you should probably visit your local electric motor shop. Normally those guys are astute enough to find the best solution for your problem.
It would be best to remove the motor from your lathe and carry it into the motor shop guy.
Best of luck and let us know how you do.

Dick

 

[TQ60]

If we are talking of a lathe with a 3 phase motor do not change to single phase as the motor will not be as good nor will the finish.

Best bet is a VFD which can convert single to 3 phase and have variable speed.

Allen Bradley 13th series are easy to use and are reasonable on ebay but download a copy of the manual so you can confirm the correct model.

Any general electrician can hook up the wiring but adding control requires some reading but not that bad.


We used the original drum switch to control our vfd and a pot for speed.

 

[Dick Feldman]

Not to be disrespectful, but I do not see real correlation between the ability to get a smooth finish on a lathe and the electric source for a drive motor. Some common solutions for a rough finish are to increase spindle speed, slow the feed rate and to upgrade the cutting tool. Is your premise supported by real science?
When in the utility business, I was faced with plenty of electric wives tales. One common tale was that a person could make an electric meter run slower by keeping it cool. The goal was to make the electric bill lower. It was uncanny how many wet rags I saw draped over electric meters.

 

[TQ60]

A single phase motor may not run with the same smoothness of a 3 phase one.

These grumblings or rumble due to the nature of how some single phase motors operate sometimes can be observed as a pattern in the finished shaft.

These are per reports from those who do this for a living.

When we had single phase motors on our lathes the lathes and operator was such it did not matter much but if the work requires an excellent finish then 3 phase would be likely better than single.

If op already has lathe with factory 3 phase motor one could assume it is properly matched to the machine and adding a VFD usually is far less work than trying to find a replacement motor and properly fitting it.

Our 14.5 SB has a 2 hp 3 ph motor and a good VFD was found for $199.00 so we now have infinite variable speed with changing the belt positions for torque adjustments.

no need for back gear yet.