winterhalder 3-train 5-tube grandfather clock

[bruce linde]

just picked up this winterhalder 3-train 5-tube clock... i feel like i found a running rolls royce in a barn for cheap... the thing is built like a tank.

the three weights measure 14 lbs 4.7 oz, 14 lbs 1.5 ox, and a whopping 26 lbs. 8.6 oz.

i've got it silenced and running time only until i can get to it for a proper cleaning/service... apparently that's how it's been run for a while as the time train is easy, and the strike and chime trains are sluggish from crud.

if anyone has a way to look up serial numbers i'd love to know more about it... it feels (total guess) like 1920-ish to me... just based on how it's made... but i could be wrong.

i assume tran has a winterhalder book? anyone have it?

thx,
smike

 

[bruce linde]

three more pics....

i've checked out the oct. 2009 bulletin article on winterhalder and am reading through other threads of the forum... pls lmk if you have any more info for me!

thx.


xyzzytom_331267 xyzzytom_331268 xyzzytom_331269

 

[JTD]

The three pics aren't visible - at least not to me.

JTD

 

[Andy Dervan]

Hello,

That clock is model # 1351 by Colonial Manufacturing Co. in Zeeland, MI.

Model # 1351 was listed in Colonial's 1919/1920 catalog, so dating it from early 1920's was a good guess.

Winterhalder was actually an extended family of clockmakers, so it is difficult to identify who exactly made the movement.

Andy Dervan

 

[bruce linde]

sorry about the three pics... here they are again.

there's an old tech support acronym that was used to described many many problems: PEBCAK ... Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard

 

[brc]

This may be an optical illusion in the pictures, but it looks like you have the heaviest weight on the time train. I believe the heaviest weight belongs on the chime train. You may be contributing to extra wear on the time train in this configuration.

Bruce

 

[Tinker Dwight]

I'm curious about the large time weight. I find that
most unusual. I don't think that is original. These clocks typically
run with the time at around 10-15 lbs, plus or minus.
The three train movements are reasonably good. Winterhaulder
made a 2 train strike and chime that got him a bad reputation towards
the end of the 1920s.
The movement you have is nice and heavy with good quality parts.
The chime trains are always a little fussy.
I see that the cables are almost fully wound. This means they are likely
birdnested. Do not run them this way. If you do, it will likely damage
the cables and possibly cause one to break, sending the weight through
the bottom of the case.
The clicks in these are almost impossible to reach so the only easy way
is to run it slowly and and watch it. When you come to a tangle, don't run it
until the tangle stops it. Remove some tension and spread the cable across the
drum. Then run until the next tangle. The strike and chime can be manually
tripped but the time is a tougher one.
Next time it is moved, either restrain the cables or run them all the way down
first.
Tinker Dwight

 

[bruce linde]

i was able to get to the clicks and make sure the cables were wound cleanly in the grooves. i used a pivot locator tool... long and slender... and was just able to get under the clicks.

the weights are all stylistically identical... hooks, tops/bottoms, coloring... but the big one does look too big, and crowds the others. i actually have a very similar one that's 13.5 lbs and the same size as the two on the chime/strike trains... i just put it on the time train it seems to be running fine. we'll see. i ordered conover's book that goes into the chime side of the movement, for when i get around to it.

i've read up a bit on winterhalder and about later issues. every impression from looking at this thing is that it wasn't done on the cheap. i won't know of course until i go in and see the innards, but it 'feels' higher end, and made during a peak period (rather than scrapped together to get it out the door of the factory)... nice higher quality touches on the movement and pendulum, case is ok.

i don't suppose there are any records for winterhalder movement serial numbers?

 

[JTD]

Your movement was made by Hans Winterhalder of Neustadt (hence HWN). This company was started in 1919 and liquidated in in 1929 when it was taken over by Junghans. As far as I know there are no serial number records in existence.

The late and much missed Doug Stevenson wrote an interesting article in the Bulletin a few years back which tells the story of Hans Winterhalder.

JTD

 

[bruce linde]

Your movement was made by Hans Winterhalder of Neustadt (hence HWN). This company was started in 1919 and liquidated in in 1929 when it was taken over by Junghans. As far as I know there are no serial number records in existence. The late and much missed Doug Stevenson wrote an interesting article in the Bulletin a few years back which tells the story of Hans Winterhalder. JTD

thx... i read the article... amazing how much info is available!

 

[brc]

If the weights are stylistically the same I would bet that they originated together. I believe the heaviest weight belongs on the chime train. I think you just need to swap the time and chime weights. Typically the chime train on a tubular clock requires significantly more weight to power the chime.

Bruce

 

[macaw]

Bruce, you are correct, the heaviest does go on the chime train on this clock. Smike, I can give you the weights of mine to see if yours are correct for the clock (if you like)
Mark

 

[bruce linde]

Bruce, you are correct, the heaviest does go on the chime train on this clock. Smike, I can give you the weights of mine to see if yours are correct for the clock (if you like)
Mark

absolutely. thx.

i'd love to see a picture of yours, as well.

 

[bruce linde]

Bruce, you are correct, the heaviest does go on the chime train on this clock. Smike, I can give you the weights of mine to see if yours are correct for the clock (if you like)
Mark

i put the heaviest weight on the chime side on the right, the (slightly) heavier of the remaining two in the middle on the time train, and the (just slightly) lightest one on the strike train.

looks and works mo' better... feel a bit dumb though for not having thought that through!

 

[Tinker Dwight]

I should note that H. Winterhaulder use quite a bit of what
might be called modern manufacturing techniques.
He was chastised for doing this but he was still using good
quality materials and made nice movements.
I'm not sure if a lifting arm that is hand filed to shape is any
better than a punched out piece.
Tinker Dwight

 

[macaw]

Right 11 lb, both left & center are 8 lbs.
All 3 look alike, and each is stamped on the bottom. I'll try to remember to post pics this weekend. Mine is the Colonial 1482 I posted a few months ago. I just dropped it off to have the case professionally refinished. I decided I couldn't live with the 1970's abomination they called "antiquing" on a clock I plan to keep. I hope to start on the movement soon and will try to remember to post pics. (remembering's not my forte lately)
Mark

 

[bruce linde]

Right 11 lb, both left & center are 8 lbs.
All 3 look alike, and each is stamped on the bottom. I'll try to remember to post pics this weekend. Mine is the Colonial 1482 I posted a few months ago. I just dropped it off to have the case professionally refinished. I decided I couldn't live with the 1970's abomination they called "antiquing" on a clock I plan to keep. I hope to start on the movement soon and will try to remember to post pics. (remembering's not my forte lately)
Mark

mark -

thx for your help. i looked up your clock and post... congrats on the refinish.

andy sent me a copy of the original catalog page for mine... not sure what the movement options mean, or how they map to the winterhalder movement and big-boy weights in mine (14, 14, 28).

i also just noticed that my chime tubes are currently set up left to right, longest to shortest... but not in the catalog photo. is there a standard set-up for 5-tube clocks? for this one? they sounded right when i tried them, but the chime side was really sluggish and i didn't want to run it gunged up with such a heavy weight.

 

[Tinker Dwight]

During the war time, Colonial use Herschede movements.
They had basically the same options, such as 5 tube chimes.
Tinker Dwight

 

[macaw]

The strike tube (longest) on mine is also on the left, so yours should to be correct for the movement the way you have them. I have to believe your weights are too heavy. Clean and bush the movement as needed and try some lighter ones (just a suggestion). IMO too heavy of weights is not good for it.

 

[bruce linde]

he strike tube (longest) on mine is also on the left, so yours should to be correct for the movement the way you have them. I have to believe your weights are too heavy. Clean and bush the movement as needed and try some lighter ones (just a suggestion). IMO too heavy of weights is not good for it.

Can you post pictures of your movement? I think yours is later than mine, as it says Miller on it. I also think maybe mine is beefier, and that the weights are indeed all original. I only saw one partial photo of yours… It would help to see more of it.

 

[macaw]

Mine also says Miller, the only way I knew it was Winderhalder is by the name on the end of the chain. I should be starting on the overhaul tomorrow if all works out and will post pics.
Mark

 

[bruce linde]

Mine also says Miller, the only way I knew it was Winderhalder is by the name on the end of the chain. I should be starting on the overhaul tomorrow if all works out and will post pics.
Mark

mine does NOT say miller.

it only says HWN (in an oval) and 'winterhalder. made in germany'.

i'm saying they're different movements that require different weights. mine fit, look original to the clock, and work as expected. i think they're right... even if they are the beefiest weights on any of my clocks.

exciting about your overhaul... please do take and post lots of pics.

 

[macaw]

After check my Long Case book (Tran, Arlington Press) you have movement 61, mine is 53. Your weights would be heavier due to the larger bob and steel rod. Mine has a smaller bob and wood rod. Also, your plates are 7-1/4" x 8", mine are 9"x6". I'll either resurrect my post for the pics, or post them on the repairs area. Not sure which would be best.

 

[bruce linde]

After check my Long Case book (Tran, Arlington Press) you have movement 61, mine is 53. Your weights would be heavier due to the larger bob and steel rod. Mine has a smaller bob and wood rod. Also, your plates are 7-1/4" x 8", mine are 9"x6". I'll either resurrect my post for the pics, or post them on the repairs area. Not sure which would be best.

if your book has any photos of the movement, or even a text description of movement/pendulum, etc., it would be great if you could post or PM me images. i just read conover's chapter on winterhalder strike and chime but still want to collect as much info and perspective as possible before diving in on mine!

 

[Tinker Dwight]

---snip--- I'll either resurrect my post for the pics, or post them on the repairs area. Not sure which would be best.

A link to your post would be fine and appropriate.
Tinker Dwight

 

[macaw]

I just finished the disassembly the link if this works is https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?137374-Colonial-1482-No-53-Movement It's a mess, and I think Herschede's are easier. I'll try to take a closeup of the page and pm it to you later. I also have a lot more pics I can email you if you want to pm me with your address. I didn't think they'd want me to post them all.

 

[bruce linde]

I just finished the disassembly the link if this works is https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?137374-Colonial-1482-No-53-Movement It's a mess, and I think Herschede's are easier. I'll try to take a closeup of the page and pm it to you later. I also have a lot more pics I can email you if you want to pm me with your address. I didn't think they'd want me to post them all.

sending PM... thx.

 

[bruce linde]

sending PM... thx.

macaw was kind enough to send me the description of the #61 movement from tran...

it says 'heavy, solid Damask brass plates'... the plates on my movement are plain, and 7 3/8 x 8.

everything else looks the same... which makes me wonder if mine would have been earlier or later, or if this reveals anything at all?

 

[bruce linde]

i had cleaned up the dial with cream of tarter a while ago, but stopped short of pulling off the numbers and re-silvering because the numbers were riveted (not screwed) in place. i decided to pop 'em out today so i could do the dial right... think it looks cleaner/better...

 

[brian fisher]

noice! can we get a closeup?

 

[bruce linde]

 

[bruce linde]

hmmm... on second thought those numbers were too light. as an experiment i sharpied them black... that will do me until i'm motivated to rip it apart again and blue them properly.




note: you can see a larger image at: bruce's CLOCKS click on 'gallery'

 

[gleber]

Is that traditionally correct? Interesting, but I'm not feeling it...

I hope you don't mind a non-solicited contrary opinion.

Tom

 

[dgoerner]

I received the same clock about a year ago model 1351, I haven't worked on it yet, as I'm still working on the Jacques clock.

 

[bruce linde]

Is that traditionally correct? Interesting, but I'm not feeling it... I hope you don't mind a non-solicited contrary opinion.Tom

no... but it is nice to be able to see the numbers.

they might be too dark now but perhaps i’ll experiment in photoshop and see if i can come up w the right color. they seemed awful light and hard to read before...

might just want to be more bronze than brass...

 

[beedub]

Hi, curious about the weights, they look really orange or is it just the photo?

 

[bruce linde]

they are a little orange/bronze... the end caps and hooks look like brass... the weight tubes, different

 

[brian fisher]

the lacquer has yellowed over the years on the weight shells. you can soak them in lacquer thinner and then clock cleaning solution to brighten them up at some point if you wish. i think they look pretty good with the patina they have though.

as to the dial numbers, have you considered electroplating them? i think you will be disappointed with bluing solution. most likely your digits are brass? that stuff is designed to cause a chemical reaction with steel.

 

[bruce linde]

i like the patina, too... in general i like my clocks looking their age and not like (god bless him) paul mccartney's dye job.

i had not considered electroplating them but will look into options. right now they've just got black sharpie on the very fronts and not the side bevels. i ordered a bronze sharpie from amazon just to see what a compromise color looks like; the plain brass numbers are just too light for me, while the black ones... wonderfully visible from far away... are a bit dark.

and, yes, the blueing just works like blue-black paint on brass with no chemical reaction... the results are fine on brass clock hands (with a little lacquer or renaissance wax) but would be too much here.

mostly, though, i'm relieved that i (crossed fingers) finally got the height adjustment just right on the strike side rack release arm... it would work great with the dial off but when i put the dial on it would every now and then just not release... meaning no strike at the top of the hour, strike weight falling behind the others on its way down. i can still detect no flex in the plates or movement of any kind when putting on the dial but apparently it was just enough to exacerbate and reveal the problem.

 

[bruce linde]

 

[bruce linde]

ok, numbers are back to gold/brass... nothing ventured, nothing gained, yes?

 

[gleber]

Much better! Did you darken behind the center fretwork, or is it the lighting? How did you get the Sharpie off, alcohol?

Tom

 

[bruce linde]

gold sharpie over black sharpie over bright and shiny brass... again, this was proof of color concept but the combination is just darker and muted enough to give the contrast between numbers and dial i was looking for.

easy enough to reapply or wax/lacquer...

 

[Uhralt]

My experience is that the Sharpie black will fade over time, especially when exposed to sunlight. The black will turn into a transparent light blue. This will take some years but eventually will happen.

Uhralt

 

[bruce linde]

My experience is that the Sharpie black will fade over time, especially when exposed to sunlight. The black will turn into a transparent light blue. This will take some years but eventually will happen.
Uhralt

same experience... but i don't know how the gold stands up... we'll see...