William Ward verge dial clock early 19th C

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by novicetimekeeper, Mar 16, 2017.

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  1. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Not a straightforward purchase, the auctioneer made a mistake and appeared to have soldit to somebody else but I got the invoice, then it turned out I had won the auction and the auctioneer noted the bid incorrectly on the system.

    Anyway, on its way to me shortly, I wanted a silvered dial but this one seemed in good condition. Turns out it may not be as original as I thought.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     

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  2. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    What are your suspicions on originality? A silver dial would be nice.... and a saltbox case. ;)

    Ralph
     
  3. novicetimekeeper

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    At the moment just a condition report that appeared after the fact. Says replacement case and repainted dial.

    Silvered dials go for a lot but at least you don't have the problem of somebody repainting them. I shall wait and see now, but as long as I can get it to work at reasonable cost I won't be too unhappy, it looks attractive I thought. I have a space identified for it where I was going to put another clock I lost out on, that did have a silvered dial but was about 60 years later.

    Before seeing the late report my only concern was what that stamp says on the inside of one plate.

    Will Ward certainly existed, and at the right time I think.
     
  4. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    One clue to either a replacement dial, or replacement hands (or even replacement case?) is the tip of the hour hand is a bit short. This would be unlikely for an English clock. The hands may be authentic Regency hands, at least in style.
     
  5. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I would just see that as a clue to possible replacement hands. The hands need to match the dial not the case or movement surely? There is no suggestion from the condition report that the dial is a replacement, one of the things I did check in the pictures was dial attachment to the movement which all looked fine. The cases/dials come in standard sizes so swapping is as easy as on a longcase but without the additional problem of seatboards as the dial attaches to the case and the movement hangs from it.

    BTW I was unable to reconcile the hands, they don't seem to quite fit anything in Rose's book.
     
  6. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    I wondered about the hands too, also the bottom writing in the fancy swirls is not quite straight, but then again maybe thats just the way it was made. But its a handsome looking clock and the movement looks very nice indeed!
     
  7. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Yeah, I guess you're right it could be just the hands that are replacement. To me the whole case, dial font, and hands are Regency. At least the movement would be on the more desirable side if it's not original to the case. To me, the hands look fine in that style but are incorrect length. Sort of like Vulliamy clock hands, but not quite.
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    If the dial repainting turns out to be inadequate I do at least know a top notch dial repainter who can sort it out.
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

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    The maker is listed in the CC up till 1794 as far as I can see. That fits with the movement, would be an early painted dial but they had already been in longcase for 15 years or so. It has a narrow wood surround so that looks right for the period. It should be a bit earlier than Regency but we are in the right area.
     
  10. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Your clock case and dial look later than 1794 to me. Hey, I could be wrong. But my feeling is the case and dial are later than the movement. I'm not just trying to be contradictory. For example, recently a salt box case, 14" painted dial, with an "A" frame anchor movement was sold. That maker was listed right at 1800. Your dial is a repaint, but the numerals are larger, more like 19th. Just my gut feeling. I think you have an old clock, but I believe the movement was put into a slightly newer case. Perhaps the original was damaged when it was 20 years old? We'll never know for sure.
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

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    I didn't really want a saltbox case as the space I have will only just take this clock. I should, perhaps, have held out for a silvered brass dial one. They retail for around £5k but I guess you can pick them up at auction for around £1500-£2000 plus fees.

    Ideally I would like a local one but I've never seen an early Dorset dial clock.
     
  12. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Very nice early dial clock Nick and verge is unusual and they were often converted to anchor. Two makers are listed by Loomes in London with the name William Ward both around the same period, one is listed as apprenticed 1793 and CC 1800, the other apprenticed 1785. The minute hand is a tad short and the hour hand a tad long but they look fine on the dial.

    It will interesting to find out what the stamp on the inside of the frontplate is. If you haven't spotted it there is a very similar looking movement in Rose's book on page 141 with the same backcock dating to the same sort of period. The plates look tapered, are they?
     
  13. novicetimekeeper

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    Yes tapered plates.

    I didn't get far with reference books but found an old auction listing for a Will Ward clock with more info on him provided by Bonhams. He was originally in Holborne Hill which is just a mile and a half from Bloomsbury.

    I was looking in Rose last night and flicked past that one. I agree very similar movement. The pillars look to be rounded on the end rather than the chamfer in the book.

    I can see why the case is said to be a replacement, those round bottom cases are there to accommodate the longer pendulum of the anchor escapement.

    I shall have to wait now and see if the dial shows signs of not being original to the movement. That would be a disappointment, the case itself is an early one with the narrow surround, until it arrives I won't be able to tell the profile nor manufactururing method of the bezel. Obviously I would hope for cast rather than spun.

    Although it isn't as original as I had hoped I think it will look fine on the wall and it is my first verge clock. I hope for more but perhaps will stick to brass dials in future.
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

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    It has taken a week for mailboxes to pick this up from the auction house and now it is in the packing queue for an indeterminable period. When they eventually pack it they will contact me again and ask if I want special overnight delivery, well yes if it were a week ago.
     
  15. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Is it coming via a stagecoach? It would be in keeping with the period..
     
  16. novicetimekeeper

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    It would get here quicker if it walked!
     
  17. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Poor you, I do hate being made to wait. Seems some Mailboxes are better than others.....some quote a price and then mysteriously its always increased once they collect, some take foreeeeever to do anything. Some, however, are great. Guess its all down to the individual franchise. Hope you get it soon!
     
  18. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Yes I agree, the one in Edinburgh was excellent, this one in Chelmsford seems a bit pants. It's a bit far to pick it up myself and most auction houses are shut at weekends so I can only do that in the school holidays.
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

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    Well it has arrived and throws up as many questions as it answers.

    The case needs work as does the clock and they are not attached to each other but could be. The stamp inside the plate says will ward 1846 which can't really be a date I think as it seems unlikely to be verge then though it would explain the painted dial. A different William Ward? No evidence on initial inspection that they don't belong together.

    The bezel on the case is cast not spun which shows it is an early one. All very curious.
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

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    There definitely was a William Ward in Bloomsbury who was a clockmaker (There was another more famous one who was a merchant)

    From http://www.galpinsociety.org/galpinextras/GS_Whitehead&Nex_J_to_O.pdf

    A list of Sun insurance policies.

    James Jones at Mr William Ward’s Clock maker \ opposite theDolphin in Hyde Street Bloomsbury


    Perhaps this was a family member?
     
  21. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    #21 Chris Radano, Mar 24, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
    1846 could be the movement's production number. I believe the case is 19th c. as I mentioned earlier. I think the movement is 1790. Perhaps an older movement from which another case was made. And they paid respect to the original maker. Let's say a clock fell off a wall, would they scrap a good movement? We have to think outside the box on this one.

    Anyway, congratulations on your clock.
     
  22. novicetimekeeper

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    Would they dismantle a 1790 movement to stamp the name and date on the inside? It seems to me more likely that if 1846 is a date that they decided on a very old design. Verge pocket watches were still being made in 1846.

    If 1846 is the date then the dial design fits with the movement, just the case is wrong. The case was made for an anchor escapement, and I think for a different bezel too, though they are contemposry with each other, it may be it was just repositioned because the screw holes failed.

    1846 seems a bit high for a serial number and a bit late for a verge, but I don't think the stamps were applied decades after the movement was made.
     
  23. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I have a Barraud & Lund bracket clock that has 1971 on it's brass dial. I think it dates to 1855 or so. But I suppose to stamp a production number would be a Victorian thing.
     
  24. novicetimekeeper

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    I can see Barraud and Lund making that sort of number, but William Ward?
     
  25. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Nick,

    It might be a Thwaites & Reed serial number. Do you have Rose's book on dial clocks. T&R supplied a lot of movements to clockmakers....

    Is this a local clock? Is Salisbury local?

    Ralph
     
  26. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Hi Ralph,

    It's Bloomsbury, which is in central London.

    Would T&R have a stamp for the retailer to put on the inside of the plate? Seems an odd place to put the stamp anyway but that could be a mistake, the plate presumably wasn't handed at the time of the stamp.
     
  27. novicetimekeeper

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    Just got back from the clock repairer who specialises in verge movements.

    He says he thinks the dial and movement have always been together and he believes the case is original to the clock, although the side door and the bottom of the case are recent placements. He thinks the style of the Bloomsbury is wrong for the age which he puts at 1810.

    Like me he finds the number a bit of a puzzle as he feels it is high for a serial number but wrong for a date. However he wonders if the lettering style is because they thought 1846 was a date.

    I think that's a bit of a result.

    I'm having the replacement bottom of the case veneered with mahogany and a cock bead on the door that will bring it into line.

    The dial is going to be repainted, I'll have a think about the Bloomsbury and discuss it with the painter.

    Romoving the dial from the falseplate did not reveal any secrets, just a crudely scratched XII and a PCD for the numerals.
     
  28. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Sounds like a result! Good news, although a pain to have to get the dial re-done. At least (if you decide to put it back on) your dial painter can straighten up the Bloomsbury. My OCD side would struggle with it like it is lol. Odd about the 'date' though

    I really like the clock, its very elegant with the narrow surround
     
  29. novicetimekeeper

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    Its all a bit odd but I am pleased it is so original, might just go with london, but will discuss with the painter.

    If Bloomsbury will be a different style I think.
     
  30. novicetimekeeper

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    pics of the dial just for you Sal.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  31. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    New old stock movement.
     
  32. novicetimekeeper

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    That's possible, though I was just looking at another verge with iron dial from 1810, so they definitely existed at that date.

    The stamps are not helpful, the T&R database has the number as made 1797 but it isn't the way they did their numbers.
     
  33. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    #33 Chris Radano, Apr 1, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    I have a Thwaites movement bracket clock, retailed by Ellicott & Company.

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?67059-Dating-Thwaites-movement-serial-numbers&highlight=thwaites

    When the year 1800 came about, they stopped making the verge and switched to anchor. Loomes says the change was very sudden, and that is what I've seen, too. These were London makers, at the forefront of technology and style. So I would think your movement was a spare that was used a few years into the 19th c.

    Every once in a while, over the years of looking at clocks, you will see a clock that appears to have a movement older than the case, but no signs the clock is not original. I think your clock is another one. To me, it qualifies as an original clock.
     
  34. novicetimekeeper

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    I don't disagree on how it came about, but the stamps inside are still a conundrim.

    I think for a verge to get put in a case designed for an anchor escapement is clearly a bit of an oddity and your suggestion is the best to explain it. As the bottom has been replaced we can't see a door put in big enough to get your hand in to get at the verge pendulum, well it's there but that's on the replacement base, but it seems that must be how it was as there is every sign they all belong together.
     
  35. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I suppose one would have to take out the dial pegs to adjust the pendulum? Since it's a verge, the movement can be moved around more than an anchor movement. Sounds like they didn't make the cases compatible for a verge movement by that time.

    The number will be a mystery for now. Maybe you will someday be satisfied with an explanation.
     
  36. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Ha ha, thanks for the pictures! :D
     
  37. novicetimekeeper

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    no problem. The style of the Bloomsbury lettering would go with the 1846 as a date, perhaps the earlier restorer was happy with the date and took their lead from the movement. Perhaps the dial was too far gone to establish what was there, who knows?

    We have decided to go gor a style more in keeping.
     
  38. novicetimekeeper

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    The door that is there now is big enough to get your whole hand in to do it, we just don't have the evidence that you could with the original but no reason to assume not. I'm having the bottom veneered and a cockbead put on so that the replacement base is more in keeping with what it must have replaced.

    The stamps will be a mystery until another ward comes up. I've only seen two clocks by him before and not in enough detail to work it out. I've also seen a watch but that would just be his signature not his work. (mind you that's quite possibly the case here, once you get this late it has all become very centralised)
     
  39. novicetimekeeper

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    #39 novicetimekeeper, Apr 1, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    What concerns me is that whoever had the dial repainted didn't have much to go on from the original finish and went with the stamp. Like me they may have found William Ward in Bloomsbury and then gone with the date.

    That's the pronlem with painted dials, I don't know how confident I can be that we have the right william ward.

    Edit: My books have a Will Ward, London, Clockmakers Company 1800, sounds like a possibility. A later one than the Bloomsbury one.
     
  40. novicetimekeeper

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    Sadly a bit more of a basket case than expected, just as well I haven't won many auctions recently...


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  41. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Yeah its going to take some work that one, but it looks to be all there so thats the main thing.

    I've just bought 2 very nice old clocks at auction, both have issues I can already see from the single shots of the backplates. Now a nervous wait to see how much more invisible damage lurks between the plates...!
     
  42. novicetimekeeper

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    Well the good thing is it isn't a very complicated clock so there isn't much to it. The bad news is I get to pay the bill. Trying to decide on a new crown wheel or improve this one, it should be crossed out at least. No idea what horrors are in the spring barrel and all the iron work is badly pitted.

    I haven't seen the case yet but the cabinet maker tells me it is finished. Had the bottom of the case veneered with a cock bead on the door so at least it now looks as it did before somebody replaced the bottom. Bezel will have been cleaned up, glass refitted and the mahogany french polished.

    What did you get then?
     
  43. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    I was wondering if spokes could be made and discreetly soldered in place on that one if all else is correct. Are the pallets ok, they look odd? But that said I've only serviced 2 verge clock and neither were English, both just had little flippers (lol)

    Despite its issues, it is a lovely clock

    I got, for a very good price, 2 x double fusee bracket clocks. I didnt expect to win either. One definitely has a broken fusee cord, the other looks like its not well secured in the case at the very least.... one has a makers name, but I cant find anything on him. Would you mind if I asked you if your books could shed any light?
     
  44. novicetimekeeper

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    send me a pm or start a thread, you may be better with that as I don't have the latest issues.

    The chap who will be doing the work has suggested crossing out this wheel, but I think he would rather do another, I've asked for price comparisons. It will be lovely when done and still a fraction of retail but a much bigger fraction than it started :)
     
  45. daveR

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    I will be interested to know what your repairman suggests for the soldered on barrel cap. Is there enough metal left to deepen the groove and make a new cap , orsomething else ?
    David
     
  46. novicetimekeeper

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    I know he wasn't very impressed!
     
  47. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Thank you, I'll wait until they arrive so I can check the name on the dial/movement, its a little hard to read in the photo and I may have it wrong :)
     
  48. novicetimekeeper

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    Just had the pics through of the movement, will post them this evening as it never goes well from here.

    However two questions have been answered, the existing crown wheel has been crossed out and looks like new. Once the solder was removed from the barrel and cap it all went back together without a hitch, so the solder was presumably some sort of belt and braces approach. Looks much better without it.
     
  49. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Cool, look forward to the pics! Good news about the crown wheel and barrel

    My two clocks I bought a week ago still havent even been collected from the auction house, let alone packed and sent :( Seems I got a slow Mailboxes this time.....
     
  50. novicetimekeeper

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    The mailbox service seems very variable.

    Big day for verges here, William Post turned up earlier.

    will do pics next
     
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