William Monk Berwick St John 18th Century longcase, altered?

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
I have always wanted a Monk. He is not a Dorset maker, though he lived only just outside the County. He was a significant supplier of clocks to Dorset though, not just longcase but turret clocks and also lanterns. He gets his own chapter in the book of Dorset makers by Tribe & Whatmoor. My interest is that he made the replacement movement for the 15thC astronomical clock in Wimborne Minster, the local church where I was a choir boy.

His 30 hours usually stand on spikes, and his better movements are said to have round posts with the spikes screwed into the bottom of the posts.

This clock is not in its original case, and I wonder if the spikes have been removed to make it fit? It will be a while before I find out, it will be delivered to the cabinet maker in September.

The case does not look like a southern case, not sure what we will do with that! The dial is 11"

Pictures posted with permission of the auction house.

4fe2dad1-b6c5-49cf-a563-aee1010b3fbf.jpg 43040b95-6d20-4d83-9dc2-aee1010b3d48.jpg edb8bf36-fd62-44bc-8d28-aee1010b3bb9.jpg eb656f34-be52-45da-afab-aee1010b41c8.jpg
 
Last edited:

Chris Radano

Registered User
Feb 18, 2004
4,184
482
83
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
Now you say spikes screwed on to the bottom of the posts. So the spikes would be like feet?
Opposed to "Hoop and" spikes (spurs).
You are the expert here. I am certainly an admirer of the column posts.
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Yes, Loomes believes Monk was apprenticed to DeLaunce, particularly because of this feature. It is thought the spikes stop the movement sliding about on the seatboard during winding, remember 30 hours are usually loose on the seatboard which is loose in the case. However these spikes raise the clock up on the seatboard so the seatboard has to be lower than for a movement without spikes.

Very early posted frames had threaded rather than riveted posts so the post did extend below the bottom plate for the nut and usually a bit below that, perhaps this is where the thought came from. My John Knibb has this.

The spikes look exactly like those that are seen out the back on lanterns and hook and spike clocks, they just point downwards.

On his earlier round posts they are usually screwed into the bottom of the post, on the rectangular post ones they are screwed into the bottom plate.
 

jmclaugh

Registered User
Jun 1, 2006
5,668
364
83
Devon
Country
Region
Interesting movement and looks like quite a while since it has had any attention.

Any chance of a photo of you as a choir boy? :)
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Interesting movement and looks like quite a while since it has had any attention.

Any chance of a photo of you as a choir boy? :)

Haven't seen any in years. Here is the Church and clock dial. Only a single lantern pinion remains in use from the 15thC.

I sang in the church as a choir boy for the Minster and also in the school choir as the Minster was our school church being on the opposite side of King Street. We did Christmas concerts and choral works in the Minster. The school was founded in 1496 by Lady Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII and daughter of John Beaufort , Duke of Somerset whose tomb is in the church. The school was later given a Royal charter by her great grandaughter Queen Elizabeth I
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris Radano

Chris Radano

Registered User
Feb 18, 2004
4,184
482
83
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
You mean Monk replaced the movement in the astronomical clock? There is no mention of the movement replaced in Wikipedia. That specialized information is of little interest to lay folk. But by omission the implication is the clock is 600 years old (but really the movement is half that age).
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Yes, Monk replaced the movement in 1742/43. He was assisted by Joseph Bowles who 20 years later made my moonroller in the mahogany case. There are accounts for the clock from 1409 to 1918 in Tom Tribe's book, the replacement of the clock is the first entry for Monk.

Had they just kept on repairing it then it would have been the oldest working turret clock in the UK, beating Salisbury by just a few years but Salisbury clock no longer runs the church clock as it too was replaced. It would have made it the third oldest astronomical turret clock in the world (usurping Prague) and the oldest working in the world. I suppose it still ranks as the oldest working astronomical turret clock dial in the world.

20220814_153221.jpg 20220814_153359.jpg
 

Philip Snowden

Registered User
Sep 19, 2021
250
235
43
79
Country
Haven't seen any in years. Here is the Church and clock dial. Only a single lantern pinion remains in use from the 15thC.

I sang in the church as a choir boy for the Minster and also in the school choir as the Minster was our school church being on the opposite side of King Street. We did Christmas concerts and choral works in the Minster. The school was founded in 1496 by Lady Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII and daughter of John Beaufort , Duke of Somerset whose tomb is in the church. The school was later given a Royal charter by her great grandaughter Queen Elizabeth I
I Was there at the minster a few years ago and saw that fantastic Monk turret clock .I once had a movement by monk which had round pillars and stood on one inch and a half spikes I bought it off a friend who bought it off Hadfield as a lantern clock but it wasn’t .
Here’s a DeLaunce dial with the wrong spandrels it’s very heavy .

image.jpg
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Always fancied a Delaunce too, thats a nice dial plate and chapter ring.
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Here is a single hander by Monk that was for sale by a dealer for £1600 a few years back. Had been converted to two handed quite well but I passed on it. It does show the spikes

14543885_10153694349877126_1292597218238277783_o.jpg 14543727_10153694349907126_6352014286124262942_o.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip Snowden

Philip Snowden

Registered User
Sep 19, 2021
250
235
43
79
Country
Here is a single hander by Monk that was for sale by a dealer for £1600 a few years back. Had been converted to two handed quite well but I passed on it. It does show the spikes

View attachment 721465 View attachment 721466
Been looking for pictures but can’t find any and I’m sure the spikes screwed out .I like these movements and dials collected a few in my time but like most things they have taken a hit.think I paid 1,200 for my monk and knocked it out to a good friend for 900 .and also it had been altered to two hands .Ah found the pics forgot they are in English 30 Hour Clocks .

image.jpg image.jpg
 
Last edited:

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Yes, the spikes are usually threaded, either into the bottom of round posts, or into the bottom plate for rectangular posts.That's why I think they have been removed on this one
 

Philip Snowden

Registered User
Sep 19, 2021
250
235
43
79
Country
Yes, the spikes are usually threaded, either into the bottom of round posts, or into the bottom plate for rectangular posts.That's why I think they have been removed on this one
The spikes on my old clock we’re screwed in as Jeff says in his description

image.jpg
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
12,089
1,431
113
Dorset
Country
Region
On Posted frames the rack has to be at the back and the snail at the front as the trains are not side by side.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
176,157
Messages
1,541,838
Members
53,159
Latest member
Ellaurin
Encyclopedia Pages
1,065
Total wiki contributions
3,031
Last update
-