• Important Executive Director Announcement from the NAWCC

    The NAWCC Board of Directors is pleased to announce that Mr. Rory McEvoy has been named Executive Director of the NAWCC. Rory is an internationally renowned horological scholar and comes to the NAWCC with strong credentials that solidly align with our education, fundraising, and membership growth objectives. He has a postgraduate degree in the conservation and restoration of antique clocks from West Dean College, and throughout his career, he has had the opportunity to handle some of the world’s most important horological artifacts, including longitude timekeepers by Harrison, Kendall, and Mudge.

    Rory formerly worked as Curator of Horology at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, where his role included day-to-day management of research and digitization projects, writing, public speaking, conservation, convening conferences, exhibition work, and development of acquisition/disposal and collection care policies. In addition, he has worked as a horological specialist at Bonhams in London, where he cataloged and handled many rare timepieces and built important relationships with collectors, buyers, and sellers. Most recently, Rory has used his talents to share his love of horology at the university level by teaching horological theory, history, and the practical repair and making of clocks and watches at Birmingham City University.

    Rory is a British citizen and currently resides in the UK. Pre-COVID-19, Rory and his wife, Kaai, visited HQ in Columbia, Pennsylvania, where they met with staff, spent time in the Museum and Library & Research Center, and toured the area. Rory and Kaai will be relocating to the area as soon as the immigration challenges and travel restrictions due to COVID-19 permit.

    Some of you may already be familiar with Rory as he is also a well-known author and lecturer. His recent publications include the book Harrison Decoded: Towards a Perfect Pendulum Clock, which he edited with Jonathan Betts, and the article “George Graham and the Orrery” in the journal Nuncius.

    Until Rory’s relocation to the United States is complete, he will be working closely with an on-boarding team assembled by the NAWCC Board of Directors to introduce him to the opportunities and challenges before us and to ensure a smooth transition. Rory will be participating in strategic and financial planning immediately, which will allow him to hit the ground running when he arrives in Columbia

    You can read more about Rory McEvoy and this exciting announcement in the upcoming March/April issue of the Watch & Clock Bulletin.

    Please join the entire Board and staff in welcoming Rory to the NAWCC community.

Why no sales allowed on MB or NAWCC online?

Douglas Romero

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I seemed to have forgotten. What was the reason why sales of timepieces are no longer allowed on either the MB or between members only? Sales and wants are part of the mart magazine. Why not an online sales alternative?

We had it for awhile. There seemed to be not a lot of merchandise when it existed, but I did sell some nice items. Sure would be a nice alternative to other venues or auction houses.

Doug
 

Steven Thornberry

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To my knowledge, buying and selling has never been allowed on the MB, and certainly is not now. The NAWCC did run a couple of sales sites on nawcc.org, but neither proved to be successful. I know of no plans to resurrect such a sales site.
 

Jeremy Woodoff

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This has always been a puzzle to me. In the old days, when I was a new member in the 1970s and through the 90s, the MART was a very active way to buy and sell clocks and watches. People listed individual items or advertised lists, for which you would send a self-addressed, stamped envelope. It was slow, but so was everything in those days. I don't know why the NAWCC was never able to translate this successfully to electronic format. I still think it should work, with a much more personalized approach than eBay and Craigslist and with people generally knowing what they are buying and selling and developing reputations you can trust.
 

Dick C

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This has always been a puzzle to me. In the old days, when I was a new member in the 1970s and through the 90s, the MART was a very active way to buy and sell clocks and watches. People listed individual items or advertised lists, for which you would send a self-addressed, stamped envelope. It was slow, but so was everything in those days. I don't know why the NAWCC was never able to translate this successfully to electronic format. I still think it should work, with a much more personalized approach than eBay and Craigslist and with people generally knowing what they are buying and selling and developing reputations you can trust.
One of the sales attempts within the NAWCC allowed the seller to indicated whether they would sell to the Public or restrict it to NAWCC members....if you want to sell why does it matter to whom you sell?

Many went to the auction site(s) since the possible customer base is huge.

NAWCC, to my knowledge, did not advertise; thus, few outside of the NAWCC membership knew about it and I would venture that many inside did not as well.

NAWCC is now using Ebay to sell items.
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Oh brother, here we go again.

This was sort of just recently discussed elsewhere on the MB was it not?

Furthermore, why is this thread here? Horological Misc or Member News and Views would seem more appropriate?

RM
 
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Tom McIntyre

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We have no rule against using private communications to buy and sell whatever you like. The NAWCC also sells advertising space on this site and on the main site. https://nawcc.org/index.php/mart-a-highlights/mart-marketplace.

A decision was taken quite a while ago that overt sales activities in the educational forums was a bad idea. That was mostly a credibility issue, I believe.
 

John Hubby

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Tom and all, sales activities have never been permitted in the MB itself, starting from conception soon to be 20 years ago. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki and Ray Fanchamps, who founded (and funded) the original venue, were very strong proponents that the MB should be entirely educational without commercial content. The rules prohibiting buying and selling on the MB itself were established at the beginning, informally at first but developing to written rules by 2001, which have been amended from time to time but without changing the basic premise this is fundamentally an educational venue. The preamble to our terms and conditions states as follows:
The purpose of this venue is to promote the accumulation, preservation, and distribution of horological knowledge and information. It is an educational venue, not a commercial one, and the rules herein are written to maintain that purpose as well as to make your experience more enjoyable and meaningful.
This defines the basis for our rules as well as how we approach the operation of the Message Board. The Admin and Moderator team, all volunteers, are charged with seeing that the MB fulfills that purpose and we do constantly review and discuss how we can improve the experience of our users while encouraging a focus on this venue providing a full experience in learning about horology and horological devices. We have nearly doubled the number of educational forums in Clocks and Watches since 2001, have added the Value Forums open to all last year, and will soon have a Want to Buy forum. All these have been considered in the view of what can we do to add to our user experience, without commercializing this venue.

We did at one time allow discussion of active sales such as on eBay. That started around 2001 but was shut down early 2003. The reason it was shut down was that NAWCC received legal demand letters from two large eBay sellers, stating that we must cease and desist discussion of their auctions, and remove any and all previous discussions. Their claim was that the discussions on the MB had resulted in financial harm due to negative and derogatory statements being made on a respected venue; they included copies of actual discussions as proof. It was clear they would file suit if we did not comply with their demand. I was chair of the Web Technology Committee at that time and responsible for oversight of MB activities working together with the ED and the MB Administrator, so the letters were given to me and NAWCC legal counsel for action.

After contacting the sellers and considerable discussion with counsel, he recommended we stop all discussion of active sales where such discussion being seen by potential buyers could influence the outcome. In other words, we needed to stop any and all links, discussions, or references to active sales. He also said there is no problem discussing completed sales, which we do allow. That was done in first half 2003 and written into our rules for the MB at the time; those rules are still in effect. Counsel also stated that the principal concern was not that NAWCC would be found guilty and have to pay compensation, since the MB falls under common carrier status and we have clear disclaimers in our terms and conditions that we are not responsible for what any user may post here. The problem is the cost of defense, which easily would exceed all revenue generated by the MB in a full year just to defend a single lawsuit. This is still a real issue, the reason we don't have to be concerned about it is that we don't allow the discussions to take place.
 

Douglas Romero

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Very nice and thoughtful responses to the thread similar to another. I started this thread because a reply I felt would not open up communication.

Move the thread or do what is proper. I agree that sales never were permitted on the MB, but there was a separate pass through site that a member could log into to advertise watches, clocks, etc. for both wants and sales. I used it sparingly because at that time auction houses and eBay were the best places to advertise and sell.

I agree with the education standpoint, but it also seems like many new threads are not that educational, and many of the questions are those that have been asked many times previously. Yes we have many dedicated folks who remember and point out those links and answer the questions.

Just a thought as they may be many of us or may need to dispose of their timepieces and it might be nice offer that service via the NAWCC.

Doug
 

John Hubby

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Doug, I appreciate your comments. We did have the venue 4$Sale for some time, that had replaced what we called the E-Mart which was basically a message board type listing for buying and selling. I would have really liked for 4$Sale to succeed, and I would like to find some way for NAWCC to facilitate buying and selling within our online venues. Whatever is done, it will require a cadre of dedicated volunteers such as we have here on the MB to manage and operate it, and for NAWCC to widely advertise it. Unfortunately that did not come together for 4$Sale. As mentioned by Tom Wilcox (our new Executive Director) in some discussions in the Member Comments forum he is focusing on finding ways to really invigorate our Internet presence, so hopefully we will be able to move toward some kind of buying and selling venue separate from the Message Board but widely available to our Members and the public.
 

brian fisher

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Doug, I appreciate your comments. We did have the venue 4$Sale for some time, that had replaced what we called the E-Mart which was basically a message board type listing for buying and selling. I would have really liked for 4$Sale to succeed, and I would like to find some way for NAWCC to facilitate buying and selling within our online venues. Whatever is done, it will require a cadre of dedicated volunteers such as we have here on the MB to manage and operate it, and for NAWCC to widely advertise it. Unfortunately that did not come together for 4$Sale. As mentioned by Tom Wilcox (our new Executive Director) in some discussions in the Member Comments forum he is focusing on finding ways to really invigorate our Internet presence, so hopefully we will be able to move toward some kind of buying and selling venue separate from the Message Board but widely available to our Members and the public.
I agree with John and others here that it would be really nice to have some sort of venue on this forum for selling clocks and various parts. I do understand how it could become a free for all with scammers and such. I really don’t think a private sale between two members would technically be considered a commercial purpose. However a business advertising a plethora of clocks at retail values would. The problem is where do you draw the line? I use several other forums ranging from bmw’s to tractors to 4wd trucks. They all have a successfully operating for sale section. There is no reason why we can’t either other than it might rob booth and entry fees from the convention marts. I do truly believe it would make this forum a better place however.....
 

Kevin W.

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You can always pm someone on here to ask if they have something for sale.
 

Bruce Alexander

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There is a NAWCC Buy and Sell group on Facebook.
There you have it. A perfect alternative to turning the Message Board into a Market Place. If you want to buy/sell, that sounds like a great additional option in my opinion. Unless, of course, the commercial abuses of Facebook gives one reason to pause...
 

mauleg

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...We did have the venue 4$Sale for some time...I would have really liked for 4$Sale to succeed...it will require a cadre of dedicated volunteers such as we have here on the MB to manage and operate it, and for NAWCC to widely advertise it. Unfortunately that did not come together for 4$Sale.
Another aspect of this challenge is achieving critical mass; something that 4$Sale never came close to. With competition from existing marketplaces with millions of buyers and sellers and given our relatively small numbers, this, IMHO, is a bit of a Quixotic task. I'd opine that even with a large ad campaign and excellent moderation, such an offering would have difficulty gaining traction.

There is a NAWCC Buy and Sell group on Facebook.
The only problem with the NAWCC Buy and Sell group on Facebook is that it is on Facebook (a domain that I block at the router level). Perhaps a NAWCC group on EBay would be a good alternative option more suitable for buying and selling.
 
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sylvester12

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I used to mod at a satellite TV site a few years back and we started allowing sales of receivers, dishes, etc. Everything went alright for awhile then people started reporting items not as described, items never received, illegal items, and a few scams. At the time the owner of the site asked for legal advice on whether the site could be held legally responsible the response from the lawyer was yes. I only see a few members asking for this, I think a poll or a vote on the subject by members of the NAWCC only would be helpful. If the NAWCC wants to go down this road I think a buy and sell form should only be made available to paying members of the NAWCC. Why should the mods be giving information on clocks to non members who are turning around and selling their clocks for free. I look at a lot of clocks on other venues and it's amazing how many clocks you see posted here and then advertised somewhere else for sale based on the information they received here, another handout. Then you read threads on certain clocks and there's an influx of the same type of clocks being offered for sale somewhere and I might add some clocks being totally represented falsely.
As a member I will not vote for this type of venue I think it will take away a lot of the prestige that makes the NAWCC a superior clock and watch site. There's other ways to increase membership one problem that really comes front and center non participation of a lot of members. The site needs to be more friendly and let's get everyone involved not just a few.
There's also a few threads that keep showing up that should have been stopped a long time ago you don't air your dirty laundry in public and keep bumping the thread to the top with more dribble, it makes the site look bad.
 
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Dick C

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I would expect that a large number of members are dealers.

The NAWCC members currently have two methods of selling/buying among others: the MART and the NAWCC shows.
 

Bruce Alexander

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I agree about Facebook...they are so committed to "Connecting People", Ha! I'm reminded of an old Twilight Zone Episode "To Serve Man". If it were to be put to a vote, I'd vote no. I'd much rather not see this site made into a commercial venue, even if some type of "firewall" could be implemented between the commercial and educational "Forums". As mauleg points out, who would want to moderate it? There's eBay, Craigslist and any one of a large number of other e-Market platforms that can do what they do best. Through education, let the NAWCC MB help prepare Collectors for the Marketplace. Let's not seek to turn it into one. And by that, I don't mean the offering of specific advice on a current item for all the reasons clearly cited above.
 
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shutterbug

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While we don't want to become a buy and sell site, we are soon going to introduce a forum for posting items you would like to purchase for your collection. It will be restricted, and will be explained in the introduction. We'll try it out to see if it works smoothly, and is supported.
 

Bruce Alexander

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Interesting SB. A "Wanted" Classifieds as in the Mart or kind of like the Parts Wanted permanent Thread?
That might work if responses are through Conversations. You guys know what you're doing. Good luck!
 

The Treasured Clock

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I would agree with you gentlemen. Another topic that is closely to sales is the appraisals. In either case, I came to find out and thought that the MB was mostly for educational purposes and not for the selling and appraising of clocks. I think we should keep the MB as an educational venue for both members and our guest posters.
Jonathan Lee Jones
 

Tom McIntyre

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If nothing else it should give us some additional insight into what our members are interested in
 

Tom McIntyre

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I would agree with you gentlemen. Another topic that is closely to sales is the appraisals. In either case, I came to find out and thought that the MB was mostly for educational purposes and not for the selling and appraising of clocks. I think we should keep the MB as an educational venue for both members and our guest posters.
Jonathan Lee Jones
I hope no one confuses our "What is it Worth" forums with appraisals. Some of us do have appraisal businesses, but the value opinions are just that, opinions. They do not have a need specification, nor do they have comparables research requirements. They would never qualify for a formal appraisal. They are more akin to friends in a mart room or at an auction sharing opinions about what something is worth.
 

leeinv66

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It is not a case of us just handing out stuff to non NAWCC members on this message board. This is a community of both NAWCC members and non NAWCC members who freely share information on all thing horological. The message board is provided by the NAWCC as part of our mission to educate. However, no members here are treated any differently because of their membership status with the NAWCC. Which in my view is the way things should stay.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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That's very true Peter. The NAWCC's mission is to educate the World if I recall correctly, not just our little world. It is nice to be thanked for one's time and efforts however. That too should apply to both members and non-members alike.


Edit: While I'm at it, Thanks to you Peter as well as to all of the other Moderators and Admins who volunteer to make this Message Board possible and running smoothly. The fact that you all are willing to take on yet another potentially trouble-filled Forum to satisfy those of us who want some type of Market related content is....well....risky. :eek: :chuckling: Good luck and thanks again folks.
 
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MuseChaser

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I apologize for resurrecting this thread, although at least I found it by searching for the topic just in case it had come up before rather than post blindly as some of us newbies are want to do... ;)

I, too, wondered why, unlike two car forums and an aviation forum in which I participate, this forum does not have a sub-forum dedicated to offerings for other members. I don't know what the percentage of the membership consistising of professionals dependent on their horological skills for their livelihood vs. dedicated skilled amateurs vs. newly-bitten-by-the-bug enthusiasts is (and I'm in the last group clawing my way to the middle group), but it seems like a members-only "For Sale or Trade" sub-forum would be of tremendous benefit to everyone while the downsides would be minimal. Yes, charlatans and spammers may occasionally appear, but in my experience with the three other enthusiast/professional sites I frequent, they get outed quite quickly and the forums self-police quite well. Also, with so many experienced professionals here, it would be difficult to sneak past public scrutiny. It would seem like a "For Sale/Trade" forum where we could offer excess/unneeded parts for trade or sale at collegial pricing would be welcome.

In my short time, I've collected quite a few duplicate parts that may be of use to others that I'd like to offer, and also have a NIB triple-chime grandfather's movement that I don't need but that is fairly expensive to purchase that perhaps someone could use in return for... ? Not offering it.. don't want to break any rules. Just wish there was a way to help each other out. I realize I could post a "Wanted" thread, but there's nothing specific I want right now. Well... A lathe, maybe.. ;)

Another plus would be that it would be a much more efficient alternative to current practices of constantly having to frequent auction sites, bidding on unknown quantities, hoping for the best, ending up with a lot of unnecessary parts when buying parts clocks, etc. I know for many, that's probably part of the fun. Personally, I can't stand auctions. I don't even like bartering or negotiating. The act of trying to "win" an online auction is by FAR my least favorite part of the hobby.

Just thinking out loud. Best to all..
 

UncleDoc

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I apologize for resurrecting this thread, although at least I found it by searching for the topic just in case it had come up before rather than post blindly as some of us newbies are want to do... ;)

I, too, wondered why, unlike two car forums and an aviation forum in which I participate, this forum does not have a sub-forum dedicated to offerings for other members. I don't know what the percentage of the membership consistising of professionals dependent on their horological skills for their livelihood vs. dedicated skilled amateurs vs. newly-bitten-by-the-bug enthusiasts is (and I'm in the last group clawing my way to the middle group), but it seems like a members-only "For Sale or Trade" sub-forum would be of tremendous benefit to everyone while the downsides would be minimal. Yes, charlatans and spammers may occasionally appear, but in my experience with the three other enthusiast/professional sites I frequent, they get outed quite quickly and the forums self-police quite well. Also, with so many experienced professionals here, it would be difficult to sneak past public scrutiny. It would seem like a "For Sale/Trade" forum where we could offer excess/unneeded parts for trade or sale at collegial pricing would be welcome.

In my short time, I've collected quite a few duplicate parts that may be of use to others that I'd like to offer, and also have a NIB triple-chime grandfather's movement that I don't need but that is fairly expensive to purchase that perhaps someone could use in return for... ? Not offering it.. don't want to break any rules. Just wish there was a way to help each other out. I realize I could post a "Wanted" thread, but there's nothing specific I want right now. Well... A lathe, maybe.. ;)

Another plus would be that it would be a much more efficient alternative to current practices of constantly having to frequent auction sites, bidding on unknown quantities, hoping for the best, ending up with a lot of unnecessary parts when buying parts clocks, etc. I know for many, that's probably part of the fun. Personally, I can't stand auctions. I don't even like bartering or negotiating. The act of trying to "win" an online auction is by FAR my least favorite part of the hobby.

Just thinking out loud. Best to all..
Makes zero sense that you can't actively buy and sell clocks and related items here. No other site has the credibility that this one does when it comes to horology. It would have the effect of giving folks a true understanding of what things are worth, and more importantly, NOT worth. Think what you're selling is rare? Go on eBay and see how many hundreds are for sale.
 

Dick C

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Makes zero sense that you can't actively buy and sell clocks and related items here. No other site has the credibility that this one does when it comes to horology. It would have the effect of giving folks a true understanding of what things are worth, and more importantly, NOT worth. Think what you're selling is rare? Go on eBay and see how many hundreds are for sale.
I apologize for resurrecting this thread, although at least I found it by searching for the topic just in case it had come up before rather than post blindly as some of us newbies are want to do... ;)

I, too, wondered why, unlike two car forums and an aviation forum in which I participate, this forum does not have a sub-forum dedicated to offerings for other members. I don't know what the percentage of the membership consistising of professionals dependent on their horological skills for their livelihood vs. dedicated skilled amateurs vs. newly-bitten-by-the-bug enthusiasts is (and I'm in the last group clawing my way to the middle group), but it seems like a members-only "For Sale or Trade" sub-forum would be of tremendous benefit to everyone while the downsides would be minimal. Yes, charlatans and spammers may occasionally appear, but in my experience with the three other enthusiast/professional sites I frequent, they get outed quite quickly and the forums self-police quite well. Also, with so many experienced professionals here, it would be difficult to sneak past public scrutiny. It would seem like a "For Sale/Trade" forum where we could offer excess/unneeded parts for trade or sale at collegial pricing would be welcome.

In my short time, I've collected quite a few duplicate parts that may be of use to others that I'd like to offer, and also have a NIB triple-chime grandfather's movement that I don't need but that is fairly expensive to purchase that perhaps someone could use in return for... ? Not offering it.. don't want to break any rules. Just wish there was a way to help each other out. I realize I could post a "Wanted" thread, but there's nothing specific I want right now. Well... A lathe, maybe.. ;)

Another plus would be that it would be a much more efficient alternative to current practices of constantly having to frequent auction sites, bidding on unknown quantities, hoping for the best, ending up with a lot of unnecessary parts when buying parts clocks, etc. I know for many, that's probably part of the fun. Personally, I can't stand auctions. I don't even like bartering or negotiating. The act of trying to "win" an online auction is by FAR my least favorite part of the hobby.

Just thinking out loud. Best to all..
There is a forum where you can post "Want to Buy" items; however, I would expect that there is very little activity as people quickly forget what is on the thread. Personally, I have had zero results from the thread so do spend time on the auction and other on-line sites that offer parts.


I do not like facebook; however, there are some clock forums where you might be successful:








There are 1001 reasons why there is no buy/sell including ...tried it before..
 

new2clocks

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As John Hubby mentioned, we did have a 4$sale site that was not part of the message board, per se, but was accessible from the message board (if I recall correctly).

As I recall, it failed miserably. The only items that were offered for sale were run of the mill clocks (not sure about watches) that were offered for high retail prices and no or little negotiation.

There is a forum where you can post "Want to Buy" items
I remember that the idea came from a user and, if I recall correctly, one of the arguments was that if we did not bring more commercialization to the message board, we would be out of business in two years. (I am exaggerating to make a point and I neither wish to go back and re-read the thread nor will I do so.) I also remember that it took less than two weeks to agree to and implement the idea, but some members were threatening to not renew their memberships due to the ridiculous :rolleyes:amount of time it took to bring the section to fruition.

After two months or so of the section being implemented, one of the volunteers who probably worked OT to get it running mentioned that virtually no one is using it. A quick perusal of the section shows maybe two postings per week over the last two months or so.

Think what you're selling is rare? Go on eBay and see how many hundreds are for sale.
Actually, the more we can educate someone on what they have, venues like ebay completed sales and auction house completed sales can supply more accurate and current information than we can.

There are 1001 reasons why there is no buy/sell including ...tried it before..
Absolutely. Been there, done that. Not the panacea that many people think it is!

Regards.
 

MuseChaser

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There is a forum where you can post "Want to Buy" items; however, I would expect that there is very little activity as people quickly forget what is on the thread. Personally, I have had zero results from the thread so do spend time on the auction and other on-line sites that offer parts.


I do not like facebook; however, there are some clock forums where you might be successful:








There are 1001 reasons why there is no buy/sell including ...tried it before..
Facebook is a complete non-starter for me. It simply is something in which I will never again, and I mean NEVER, participate. I've seen the negative comments regarding the previous issues with "for sale" portions of this forum and I confess I don't understand them, probably because I wasn't here at the time. If the powers that be have their reasons, so be it.

It would seem to indicate that, if a "for sale" forum open only to members is unsuccessful, then the members themselves are suspect...in which case perhaps a membership in such a suspect group would be ill-advised...?
 
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new2clocks

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It would seem to indicate that, if a "for sale" forum open only to members is unsuccessful, then the members themselves are suspect...in which case perhaps a membership in such a suspect group would be ill-advised...?
Would you kindly expand on this?

Are you saying that it is not worth being a member of the NAWCC because a for sale section failed?

Thanks and regards.
 

MuseChaser

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Would you kindly expand on this?

Are you saying that it is not worth being a member of the NAWCC because a for sale section failed?

Thanks and regards.
No, at least not as it seems you implied in your post. I'm saying that if the membership of NAWCC is incapable of buying and selling to each other amicably and honestly via an online forum, then perhaps throwing in with a cast of such scurrilous characters is ill-advised. Said somewhat toungue-in-cheek..... And yet.... I don't understand why else a "for sale" sub-forum would cause problems. It doesn't in similar forums elsewhere....so why would it be an issue here ... unless the members in general are less than ethical? To be clear, that has NOT been my experience. The few folks with whom I've had personal interaction have been wonderful.
 
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new2clocks

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No, at least not as it seems you implied in your post. I'm saying that if the membership of NAWCC is incapable of buying and selling to each other amicably and honestly via an online forum, then perhaps throwing in with a cast of such scurrilous characters is ill-advised. Said somewhat toungue-in-cheek..... And yet.... I don't understand why else a "for sale" sub-forum would cause problems. It doesn't it similar forums elsewhere....?
Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps NAWCC members and users are better educated from a horological perspective than those who buy and sell on other sites, and are not willing to pay high retail when they know they can purchase the same or similar horological item at auction prices. :) Sellers want retail prices and buyers want auction prices and if each are equally informed ... no transactions.

As I mentioned earlier, history has indicated that a buy/sell or want to buy forums were not the panacea that folks assumed it should be.

Regards.
 

Tom McIntyre

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The issue about buying and selling is not the transactions but the mechanism.

The Mart Magazine is published on the main web site, but is only viewable by NAWCC Members. We .have ads here on this site that are sold to those with items for sale.

What we do not have is sales discussions. Those can be held between two or more parties in the Conversation facility.

There was a proposal made to the BOD at the National Meeting in 2019 to develop an Auction Preview Service. that would contract with auction houses that hold horological auctions to provide discussion and presumably promotion of their upcoming sales. Action on that concept has been delayed by other pressing NAWCC activity and the general state of disruption in the world. The idea has not been forgotten.

We do allow advertising on the Forums, but those are all paid ads.
 

FDelGreco

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As I understand it, if I have something to sell -- like a clock -- but don't know what it is worth, I can post on the clock discussion forum and ask for opinions on what it is worth. Once I have some opinions and begin to actively try to sell it, I use the Report button to have the moderator lock the thread. Then I can use eBay, or the MART, or a regional -- or whatever -- to sell the item. Is that correct?

Frank
 

Tom McIntyre

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I believe that is the normal procedure.

It could even be the case that someone contacted you by conversation and you agreed on a price. Or you might even contact one of them.

I, personally, would consider the second a bit aggressive and would not advise it
 

Dave Coatsworth

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As I understand it, if I have something to sell -- like a clock -- but don't know what it is worth, I can post on the clock discussion forum and ask for opinions on what it is worth. Once I have some opinions and begin to actively try to sell it, I use the Report button to have the moderator lock the thread. Then I can use eBay, or the MART, or a regional -- or whatever -- to sell the item. Is that correct?

Frank
Correct with just a slight correction. The thread is not locked. It is temporarily removed from view. Once the item sells, it can be returned.
 

MuseChaser

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As I understand it, if I have something to sell -- like a clock -- but don't know what it is worth, I can post on the clock discussion forum and ask for opinions on what it is worth. Once I have some opinions and begin to actively try to sell it, I use the Report button to have the moderator lock the thread. Then I can use eBay, or the MART, or a regional -- or whatever -- to sell the item. Is that correct?

Frank
I believe that is the normal procedure.

It could even be the case that someone contacted you by conversation and you agreed on a price. Or you might even contact one of them.

I, personally, would consider the second a bit aggressive and would not advise it
Correct with just a slight correction. The thread is not locked. It is temporarily removed from view. Once the item sells, it can be returned.
For a person selling a very high dollar item and/or spends the bulk of their time professionally buying, selling, and dealing in clocks as a vocation, then I guess going through those convoluted steps would be worth it. I am not trying to be difficult or deliberately obtuse.. truly. I appreciate this forum and the organization very much, and have benefitted a great deal from the kindness and knowledge of folks here already in a very short time; that's why I joined. I just don't understand why it would create difficulty for anyone if we were allowed to post, "I've accumulated a bit more than I need, and have the following clock/part on hand that I'd be happy to sell/trade to a fellow enthusiast who would have use for it at a fair price." It makes no sense to go through the gyrations described above, including paying for an ad in a bi-monthly publicized online Mart pdf, to simply offer a few common 400-day movements or an also-ran (no pun intended) mantle clock or two. Yes, there is eBay (shudder), and Facebook (total body convulsions)... but we are all HERE. Talk about efficient... and I'm all about efficient.

Obviously, there were some huge problems in the past. I just can't imagine what they were. Of course, nobody owes me an explanation.. just very curious. The only thing I've gleaned from this conversation and the replies I quoted above is that allowing members to list for sale items on this board reduces revenue that is earned through paid for sale listings in the bi-monthly mart. However, speaking at least for myself, no revenue is being lost from me because I would not pay to list the cheap and borderline free things I would like to be able to offer... and buy... and accept in trade. Would the management be open to the idea of a "For sale/trade" sub-forum if the value of the item had an upper value cap, say $100? $50?

Again.. I don't mean to be difficult. One of the (many?) things I may have in common with a lot of clock folks is that I find it difficult to accept things I can't understand... I like to figure things out. I can't figure this out.. ;)

Best to all.
 

Tom McIntyre

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I do not understand what issue you would have with "What is this stuff worth?" as a thread topic in the 400 day clocks forum? (with a more descriptive version of stuff.) We stopped having the "What is it worth" set of forums because it seemed more natural to allow the questions in a regular forum. The $ value prefix allows you to alert readers and also allows those few who are offended by such posts to be alerted and even hide them.

If anyone responds, you may click on his member card and ask him if he would like any of it. There would also be a reasonable chance that someone would click on your member card and ask what you wanted to unload it.

A few pictures of the pile on a table might generate some interest.

The "Management" thinks that discussing the transactions in the thread itself and posting your prices makes us look too much like Craig's list.
 

MuseChaser

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Thanks, Tom. It's not at all that I have an issue with " 'What is this stuff worth?' as a thread topic in the 400 day clocks forum?" I just didn't see any place on the forum where folks were trading or offering clocks or parts they no longer needed and wondered why. My searching lead me to this 2018 thread, and here we are.

The procedure you detailed in your most recent post sounds like a reasonable work-around, and it's nice to know that following that procedure would be acceptable forum behavior and usage... although it kind of feels like an internet forum version of a "speak-easy.".... we all know what's going on, but shhhhh.... don't tell. If I understand correctly, then, offering things for sale or trade here is allowed... as long as you don't offer them for sale or trade... nudge nudge wink wink? I appreciate your response.. very much... but I confess I still don't understand why an overt "For Sale/Trade" sub-forum for members-only would be viewed as unseemly and Craigslist-ish. Heck, except for the usual percentage of awful human beings found in any segment of the population, Craigslist can and does serve a great purpose of rehoming stuff that may very well end up in landfills someplace otherwise.

I'm sorry for belaboring the point. I don't know enough to understand the issues here, I guess, and that's OK.
 

Dave T

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On another very popular forum I'm a member of has a section called BarterTown.
You can view items for sale for a nominal annual fee. All items are listed for sale expire after a set number of days, and are then marked sold or complete. Keeping the list manageable and up to date.

All communication between buyer and seller is by private message only.
Anyone can view completed or sold items. And also provides additional income to the forum.
Works very well and provides an opportunity between members to buy sell and trade.

For those of us like myself who tend to buy more quickly than sell, it's a good opportunity for others with the same interest to acquire a bargain and to help members "clean house".
 
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FDelGreco

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Although I’m not generally a person who wants or needs to sell horological stuff – I’m here more for the educational aspects of NAWCC and NW&CM – I can see where adding a Want to Sell area might bring more traffic to this forum and more members to NAWCC.

Maybe previous attempts at a For Sale site failed as they were too difficult to manage or use. The Want to Buy site seems to be easy to use and manage so something similar for selling might work and I think is worth a try.

I think – I may be wrong – that the main concern is liability to the Association. The fact is we have a “Want to Buy” area and we are not worried about liability there; a “Want to Sell” area with essentially the same rules should not cause a problem.

As a refresher, here are the rules for the “Want to Buy” area:

"Each user who wants to use this forum may create ONE thread where they may post descriptions of horologically related items they want to buy. Your thread can contain multiple posts, with one item per post. All discussions and transactions must be conducted privately, e.g. by PM/Conversation, Email, or social media. Only you will be able to post in your thread, other users cannot post replies. You have full edit permission for your thread including the title and all posts. You may edit your posts to add information or make corrections, or delete a post when you no longer need an item. To help sellers find your requests please include selection(s) from the Prefix list in your title, and also brief descriptive terms for each item. These should be updated each time you add or delete a post. Detailed instructions for managing your personal thread are found in the "Want to Buy" thread in the Message Board Help & Notices forum."

It would seem that these rules would work for a “Want to Sell” area, with the following changes and additions:

-Each user may create only one thread, with full edit ability. The poster may list only one item for sale at a time; when it sells, he may edit the post to sell something else.

-The post may or may not contain descriptions, price, condition, etc., but may not be an auction. Any monetary discussions, negotiations, etc. must be done by private conversation.

-If the item is also on a private or public auction or web site, it may not be placed here. However, if the seller has a brick and mortar store and the object is for sale there, it may be posted here.

We could even make some money for the Association by charging something like $5/calendar month to post a “Want to Sell” thread.

Frank
 
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UncleDoc

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Why does none of this discussion show up in the New Posts under Forums? Are you censoring things that paying members are posting?
 
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Tom McIntyre

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Yeah, I know, but it shows up nowhere.
Apart from some of your language that was censored your post is shown in new posts. Here is a screenshot of it. You can see it at the top of the latest posts widget. We do not even have a content censoring mechanism except for monitoring civility.

1613529224250.png
 

Tom McIntyre

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The newest posts widget only shows the latest 5, so it would be easy for it not to be there. It is always best to use the search facility if you want to find a topic or keyword.
 

Dick C

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Started to respond with Quote; however, decided not to.

I cannot find any way to delete this entry. Every time I come back to this thread I have this.

It appears at the bottom of the posts.

Why is it haunting me?
 

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