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Why motors work and don't work

James Matheson

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Jul 21, 2016
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I'm hoping someone can explain why this $1 motor can move a 50 cent motor and the $50 motor cannot move the 50 cent motor. And why the $50 motor can move the $1 motor. The $1 motor can move more the $50 motor cannot also. I spent over $2000 to maxon and they wouldn't answer. If this can be answered it will bring back the clock industry and open many other industries for students and more
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oDzQPSNYIyJyMWy33
 

JTD

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Sep 27, 2005
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Your question is unintelligible to me. Why not post your query in the Electric Horology section? - there are experts on electric motors there.

JTD
 

novicetimekeeper

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Your question is unintelligible to me. Why not post your query in the Electric Horology section? - there are experts on electric motors there.

JTD
He has done, twice, and I don't think anybody understands the question.
 

harold bain

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Sounds like physics 101 to me, torque has nothing to do with price.
 
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upstateny

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In the video, he is using one motor as a generator to power another motor. When he uses the word 'move' in his post I believe he means 'power or run' the other motor. Look closely at the video, you will see yellow wires with aligator clips that are running from one motor to another.

Sounds like the cheap motor operates more effectively as a generator than the $50 motor. Most DC motors will function as a generator producing currect at the motor's input terminals when the armature is spun mechanically. e.g. Motor/Generator Unit, similar to the way a diesel locomotive works, diesel engine powers a generator which generates electricity to run the traction motors to propel the train.
 
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kinsler33

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I don't know who Maxon is, but I once wrote an electrical engineering lab exercise that used three little 1.5V hobby motors: motor 1 drove motor 2 as a generator, and we used that to power motor 3 (I think: it's been many years now.) Efficiency was rather rotten, and we also discovered that the currents involved were high enough such that those thin clip leads (like those in the picture, and I still use them myself out of laziness) produced a rather significant voltage drop.

As it was, however, the lab was a great success, and more than one student asked (as I had hoped) why we couldn't connect the wires of motor 2 to motor 1 and thus eliminate the need for external power. Someone else wanted to connect the shaft of motor 3 to that of motor 2 to obtain the same result. I've always contended that the design of a perpetual motion machine is a necessary step in learning engineering. Everyone does it (I certainly did) and then they learn that it won't work.

I'm not sure what the original poster's object is, however. I hope he writes back.

Mark Kinsler
 

novicetimekeeper

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I don't know who Maxon is, but I once wrote an electrical engineering lab exercise that used three little 1.5V hobby motors: motor 1 drove motor 2 as a generator, and we used that to power motor 3 (I think: it's been many years now.) Efficiency was rather rotten, and we also discovered that the currents involved were high enough such that those thin clip leads (like those in the picture, and I still use them myself out of laziness) produced a rather significant voltage drop.

As it was, however, the lab was a great success, and more than one student asked (as I had hoped) why we couldn't connect the wires of motor 2 to motor 1 and thus eliminate the need for external power. Someone else wanted to connect the shaft of motor 3 to that of motor 2 to obtain the same result. I've always contended that the design of a perpetual motion machine is a necessary step in learning engineering. Everyone does it (I certainly did) and then they learn that it won't work.

I'm not sure what the original poster's object is, however. I hope he writes back.

Mark Kinsler

That's a rather classic experiment going back to the earliest days of electric motors, DC or rather BT (Before Tesla)

We have a bit of kit with a flywheel and a motor and a bulb with a knife switch. In one position the motor is connected to a supply and powers up the flywheel, then throw the swith and the flywheel drives the motor as a dynamo and illuminates the bulb.
 

kinsler33

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I like the flywheel idea.

I rather suspect that our original poster may have been thinking about some sort of no-power alternative-energy motor scheme, which is okay as long as he doesn't offer stock in the company. As a self-appointed crusader against pseudoscience I've been chasing these for years.

M Kinsler

your power company doesn't want you to know about this machine
 
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James Matheson

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
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What exaxctly are you asking ?
By "moving another motor" are you saying that one is more powerfull than the other?
I fully rewound a clock with a 30 gram per inch motor using the hour hands and it took 5 minutes. I fully rewound a clock with the same motor on the chime portion and it took 20 minutes to fully rewind. I need a geared motor to move as slow as possible to move a non geared motor at 30 grams per inch to fully rewind a clock. I will attach the geared motor to the spring and make a clock that stays constantly moving. The is a second option but I am hoping to find someone who will put four gears on the front of a clock so it can be rewound at 30 grams per inch to test this. I hope you will help me find someone to put four gears on the front of a clock.
 

James Matheson

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
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I paid a clock maker to make this
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8cTLJJpnQs93i9yf1
But when it was made I didn't know I could gear up the front of a clock and when I got his piece I tried to have someone in Toronto assemble it and he destroyed it. I need four gears on the front of a clock that can rewind at 30 grams per inch(ish)( or somewhere in that range). This project is literally the only way to bring back the education of the clock industry. In Canada everyone is just throwing clock away and its having a huge effect on the education of the youth
 

James Matheson

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Jul 21, 2016
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I was supposed to use a small motor to rewind it. I wasn't supposed to use the drill. Thank you for letting me write to you. This topic means a lot to me
 

James Matheson

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
43
4
8
I don't know who Maxon is, but I once wrote an electrical engineering lab exercise that used three little 1.5V hobby motors: motor 1 drove motor 2 as a generator, and we used that to power motor 3 (I think: it's been many years now.) Efficiency was rather rotten, and we also discovered that the currents involved were high enough such that those thin clip leads (like those in the picture, and I still use them myself out of laziness) produced a rather significant voltage drop.

As it was, however, the lab was a great success, and more than one student asked (as I had hoped) why we couldn't connect the wires of motor 2 to motor 1 and thus eliminate the need for external power. Someone else wanted to connect the shaft of motor 3 to that of motor 2 to obtain the same result. I've always contended that the design of a perpetual motion machine is a necessary step in learning engineering. Everyone does it (I certainly did) and then they learn that it won't work.

I'm not sure what the original poster's object is, however. I hope he writes back.

Mark Kinsler
Thank you for letting me write to you
I made a clock fully rewind with a 30 gram per inch motor using the hour section of a clock and it took five minutes. I was the same motor and put it on the chime section and it took 20 minutes to fully rewind.
I need a geared motor to move as slow as possible and a non geared motor to move as fast as possible at 30 grams per inch to fully rewind a clock.
I paid to have this made
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8cTLJJpnQs93i9yf1
I didn't know I could gear up the front of a clock and have a 30 gram motor rewind it.
When I got that piece i tried to have it assembled in Canada and they destroyed it and all I have left is a spring.
I am hoping someone will put 4 gears on the front of a mantle clock to make it so the clock rewinds at 30 grams per inch.
In that video I was supposed to put a motor where the light is and gear up the front. The drill wasn't supposed to be used.. I wasn't aware at the time.
This project is the only way to bring back the clock industry and is very needed by endless industries. I hope you will be able to find someone who will help.
I am scheduled with 3 clock makers but it's all a hit or miss. There's no accuracy if they'll do it or not. Thank you letting me write to you about this.
 

David S

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Dec 18, 2011
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James I think the reason you are not getting too many responses is that we don't fully understand what you are trying to achieve.

Just to be clear are you trying to add two motors to a mechanical clock so that the clock will wind itself without anyone have to wind it manually? As you are probably aware, before quartz clocks there were battery operated clocks that would periodically wind a spring such that the clock would run for a few minutes and then a contact would close and the spring would get wound again with a solenoid.

Can you provide more clarification as to how you plan to incorporate both motors.

30 gm inches is not very much torque. For low cost pm dc motors I have worked with Johnson Motors in the past. They make hundreds of types of motors as well as gear motors as well.

I am including a link to one of their catalogs for PMDC motors. If you want to see what types of motors may help you can check through their offerings.

David
 

kinsler33

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Aug 17, 2014
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Yes. I still cannot understand the project or its purpose. I wonder if Mr Matheson is concerned that ideas might be stolen if too many details are revealed.

As it stands, there is at the present time no great demand or need for a self-winding mechanical clock (or any mechanical clock, for that matter) with the possible exception of novelties like the Atmos clock.

Mark Kinsler
 

James Matheson

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
43
4
8
James I think the reason you are not getting too many responses is that we don't fully understand what you are trying to achieve.

Just to be clear are you trying to add two motors to a mechanical clock so that the clock will wind itself without anyone have to wind it manually? As you are probably aware, before quartz clocks there were battery operated clocks that would periodically wind a spring such that the clock would run for a few minutes and then a contact would close and the spring would get wound again with a solenoid.

Can you provide more clarification as to how you plan to incorporate both motors.

30 gm inches is not very much torque. For low cost pm dc motors I have worked with Johnson Motors in the past. They make hundreds of types of motors as well as gear motors as well.

I am including a link to one of their catalogs for PMDC motors. If you want to see what types of motors may help you can check through their offerings.

David
Hi David

I am in ontario also so this could be fun,
So i can gear down the front of a clock to rewind at any weight, so a 30 gram motor can rewind it, would take some time but it can
So all i need is 4 gears on the front of a clock and a 30 gram per inch motor can rewind it ,
That would be test number one
Once that is accomplished then a geared motor can be put on the spring of a clock and it will stay wound constantly
Is there anyway you can make or tell me how to have made 4 gears that can go on the front of a clock
I dont know how to assemble it
It is very simple
I have a meeting in april with a manufacturer
it would be nice if i had a prototype of my own
Seeing that it would charge all the usb devices in the world i am not that concerned about ownership
My main pursuit is to bring back the wind up mechanisn industry
I dont know about anyone else but my family after serving in the world wars brought the clock industry to north america
and its loss means the same as losing a family member
Here is a pre geared motor that i believe will work
12Vdc 6rpm dc Small Geared Motor with Gearbox Automatic Mahjong Motor | eBay

I have a few more that can work also
I just need to be in the right environment to be allowed to pursue this
Hopefully you can help me put the device together
Please contact me at nottryingenough@gmail.com
All it takes is 4 gears on the front,
Here is a gear cutter who cut me gears before
www.fendley-cox.com
If you could help me know what gears to put on the front and how to assemble them this would be a very fun project
and since theres no more clock makers in canada im pretty sure we would be the exclusive owners in canada
and if they make the device themselves and dont include us atleast we can know that we helped make the device
This device also put power underwater so it will help many people everywhere
I hope you will help me with this
please write
nottryingenough@gmail.com
thank you

and the designer im working with in april is also named david
I hope to read back from you
 

kinsler33

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Aug 17, 2014
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Seeing that it would charge all the usb devices in the world i am not that concerned about ownership
How would it do that? I thought that the idea was to make a self-winding clock.

I don't believe that the wind-up clock business was destroyed by the fact that clocks had to be hand wound. The electric clock, introduced long before the mechanical clock could have been considered obsolete, was prized for its accuracy and silence. When inexpensive, accurate crystal-controlled electronic clocks appeared, the clock business in North America had been extinct for quite some time.

The only mechanical clock that needs neither batteries or hand-winding is the Atmos, which is powered by temperature and air pressure variations. Similarly, there are clocks which need to be wound once a year, which reminds me that I've got two of them waiting for some attention.

M Kinsler
 

David S

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Dec 18, 2011
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Hi James,

Just so that I am clear, are you intending to use a battery or other power supply to power the motors?

Forgive me if I am still unclear. If all you need is gears there are many off the shelf gears that one can obtain without having to have them cut.

As Mark mentioned above, the Atmos is the only truly self winding clock.

David
 

David S

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Ok and I assume no other power supply. Hmm. I have been involved designing and manufacturing consumer products for the last three decades+, and have no problems designing motorized mechanisms with these small pmdc motors. However this is starting to seem like P/M.

David
 
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James Matheson

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
43
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8
Ok and I assume no other power supply. Hmm. I have been involved designing and manufacturing consumer products for the last three decades+, and have no problems designing motorized mechanisms with these small pmdc motors. However this is starting to seem like P/M.

David
I have a dedicated clock maker about to complete this,
My problem now is anxiety, I have never made anything and don't know the best way to proceed as you can tell with my posts,
I have a clock school who wants to help next year, still I have one person who said that he will have it operating next month, I even have one more very serious about clocks person, so im sure it will get done
The difficulty is no one to speak to about it and when people speak they are talking about something else and I have to ignore them so I stay focused on this
This project is truly the only thing I dedicate myself to , I would like guidance how to speak to this very serious clock person , he is very serious and lots of fun , I just don't know how to best to impress him without over impressing so he gets annoyed, I have made a few people angry so im trying to stay at bay and not become over pushy, I find talking about this subject puts my nerve at ease ,I almost had a university back this project, I could speak to students at the university where I am and im sure they would but I don't know if its good to share this with too many people, as the other posts said about people stealing, I am always looking for input
I appreciate being able to write to you
 

David S

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NAWCC Member
Dec 18, 2011
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I have a dedicated clock maker about to complete this,
My problem now is anxiety, I have never made anything and don't know the best way to proceed as you can tell with my posts,
I have a clock school who wants to help next year, still I have one person who said that he will have it operating next month, I even have one more very serious about clocks person, so im sure it will get done
The difficulty is no one to speak to about it and when people speak they are talking about something else and I have to ignore them so I stay focused on this
This project is truly the only thing I dedicate myself to , I would like guidance how to speak to this very serious clock person , he is very serious and lots of fun , I just don't know how to best to impress him without over impressing so he gets annoyed, I have made a few people angry so im trying to stay at bay and not become over pushy, I find talking about this subject puts my nerve at ease ,I almost had a university back this project, I could speak to students at the university where I am and im sure they would but I don't know if its good to share this with too many people, as the other posts said about people stealing, I am always looking for input
I appreciate being able to write to you
I feel that the reason you are getting limited response here is that we can't visualize exactly what you are trying to accomplish, and the basics about how you would like the motors set up with the gearing.

However the good news is that you have found someone who does understand, so that is good.

David
 

James Matheson

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
43
4
8
I feel that the reason you are getting limited response here is that we can't visualize exactly what you are trying to accomplish, and the basics about how you would like the motors set up with the gearing.

However the good news is that you have found someone who does understand, so that is good.

David
David Let me come to where you are, it would take less than 5 minutes to explain , Im about to go to Pennsylvania to get this done
Hopefully you will , thank you for replying
 
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