Who is the maker of this movement?

ADRIANIWC

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s-l500 (1).jpg

Does anyone know who the maker is of this movement?
It is Swiss, probably made around 1870 in Le Locle or Geneva.
It is of relative high quality : 16 jewels and gold endings for the cocks holding the lever and the escape wheel.
It is signed with many different names ( David P.Magnin, Henry Hoffmann, Constatin, J. Kahn, E. Robert, E. Guérin etc)
It was also used as the movement to operate a chronograph module, placed under the dial by Jules Jürgensen.
Many are found in the US.
All of these facts make me think that it was a kind of non-patented movement called an ébauche. Such as an ETA movement of today.
I wrote to moderator Philip Poniz, who advised me to post my question on the Forum.
Who was the original maker?
Thanks,
Adrian v d Meijden, Belgium.
 
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Dr. Jon

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Movements such as this had many makers, that is, it probably went through several shops from the rough movement to its finish and adjustment.

This is a type used often and made famous by Jules Jurgensen and it is likely to have come from a Le Brassus maker such as Piguet.
 

Philip Poniz

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Welcome to the Forum, Adrian!

The term "Jürgensen caliber" (Jürgensen calibre), that one sees in current auction catalogs and sometime in more serious publications, is a misconception. In modern horological writings, unfortunately, there are quite a few misconceptions. To combat this, NAWCC has created a column in the Watch & Clock Bulletin called Horological Fact or Fiction. We hope that more of our members will join us and straighten out some horological fairy tales.

When Jules Jürgensen began his production, he developed a special lever escapement with a characteristic long fork and a heavy balance. As a reporter for the National Horological Exposition in Zurich wrote in 1883:
The Jürgensen caliber has become one of the most esteemed types in pocket watchmaking. The straight line lever escapement, long fork, which is applied to it, is one of the distinctive characteristics of this creation.

It had nothing to do with the bridge layout. The caliber you pictured was called rounded bridges caliber (calibre ponts arrondis, or calibre ponts ronds).

The vast majority of Jürgensen's simple watches with his caliber were of calibre ponts ronds type. Someone began calling them Jürgensen caliber, and this misinformation spread like weeds.

Names of the ebauche makers for Calibre ponts ronds found in etablisseurs' records include Piguet Frères (Orient-de-l'Orbe), Aubert Frères (Sentier), someone called S.L.C., Reinbold, Louis Ami Capt, and more.

The fashion for them appeared around 1850 and lasted until around 1875.

They were relatively inexpensive, Aubert Frères, in 1861, charged 25 francs for one. A key wound and key set could have been bought for 11 francs. Some of them came ready for chronographs. They cost 26 francs. Many of them were not fitted with chronographs and were sold just as timekeepers. Adolphe Nicole's second chronograph design (1862) was easy to install on any watch, including calibre ponts ronds.

At the end of their popularity, in 1873 Aubert Frères charged 50 francs for one.

What part of Belgium are you from? My wife grew up in Belgium. Before I convinced her to move to the States, we used to travel there looking for watches, antiques, etc. I still have a small cannon that I bought there.
 

Philip Poniz

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But a "Jürgensen Calibre" watch sells a lot better than an "Aubert Calibre" watch .... :cool:;)
And, PP's
"rare self-winding backwound Cal. 350" sells better than the
"Cal 350, a spectacular failure in self-winding watches",

or AP's
"1986 the world's thinnest tourbillon" sells better than
"1986, an attempt to make a useless tourbillon",

etc, etc. But it is a different subject. I was tempted to address untruthful and misleading auction descriptions a few times, but my auction and dealer friends always argued not to.
 

astonvilla

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What are the chances that so many different Ebauche/Blank makers ( Aubert Freres , Piguet freres , slc , Reinbold , ami capt) comes up with an almost identical movement ? Did they copy each other ?
I think it is because one person drew the layout for this Ebauche , and it was given to these ebauche makers to be made. If the "designer" of this movement layout was Jules Jurgensen , why is it wrong to call it "caliber Jurgensen "?
In the book " Louise Elisee Piguet" by Fritz Von Osterhausen , there is a drawing (p 69 ). It shows how JJ , PP , Potter and U Nardin demanded one bridge in their movement to look like . I think this proves that it was the watchmakers such as Albert Potter , PP , JJ , UN Meylan , who designed their own movement layout . And these design demands were given to different ebauche makers to be made . . H Sandstrom
 

ADRIANIWC

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Welcome to the Forum, Adrian!

The term "Jürgensen caliber" (Jürgensen calibre), that one sees in current auction catalogs and sometime in more serious publications, is a misconception. In modern horological writings, unfortunately, there are quite a few misconceptions. To combat this, NAWCC has created a column in the Watch & Clock Bulletin called Horological Fact or Fiction. We hope that more of our members will join us and straighten out some horological fairy tales.

When Jules Jürgensen began his production, he developed a special lever escapement with a characteristic long fork and a heavy balance. As a reporter for the National Horological Exposition in Zurich wrote in 1883:
The Jürgensen caliber has become one of the most esteemed types in pocket watchmaking. The straight line lever escapement, long fork, which is applied to it, is one of the distinctive characteristics of this creation.

It had nothing to do with the bridge layout. The caliber you pictured was called rounded bridges caliber (calibre ponts arrondis, or calibre ponts ronds).

The vast majority of Jürgensen's simple watches with his caliber were of calibre ponts ronds type. Someone began calling them Jürgensen caliber, and this misinformation spread like weeds.

Names of the ebauche makers for Calibre ponts ronds found in etablisseurs' records include Piguet Frères (Orient-de-l'Orbe), Aubert Frères (Sentier), someone called S.L.C., Reinbold, Louis Ami Capt, and more.

The fashion for them appeared around 1850 and lasted until around 1875.

They were relatively inexpensive, Aubert Frères, in 1861, charged 25 francs for one. A key wound and key set could have been bought for 11 francs. Some of them came ready for chronographs. They cost 26 francs. Many of them were not fitted with chronographs and were sold just as timekeepers. Adolphe Nicole's second chronograph design (1862) was easy to install on any watch, including calibre ponts ronds.

At the end of their popularity, in 1873 Aubert Frères charged 50 francs for one.

What part of Belgium are you from? My wife grew up in Belgium. Before I convinced her to move to the States, we used to travel there looking for watches, antiques, etc. I still have a small cannon that I bought there.
Many thanks to Phlip and other members for solving this problem.
Philip, I have a history like your wife : I am Dutch but married a Belgian girl and live in the very North of Flanders, only a mile from the Dutch-Belgian border.
Adrian.
 

tick talk

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I was tempted to address untruthful and misleading auction descriptions a few times, my auction and dealer friends always argued not to.
That is a curious response on their part! Honest brokers always benefit when the bad practices of others are revealed.
 

ADRIANIWC

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Philip,
Can you post which reference(s) you used.
I need it for an NAWCC article in the Bulletin.
Many thanks,
Adrian.
 

Philip Poniz

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Journal Suisse d'Horlogerie, September 1883; 64, but the term had been used before, Jurgensen, Nardin, etc manufacturing books.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
In the book " Louise Elisee Piguet" by Fritz Von Osterhausen , there is a drawing (p 69 ). It shows how JJ , PP , Potter and U Nardin demanded one bridge in their movement to look like . I think this proves that it was the watchmakers such as Albert Potter , PP , JJ , UN Meylan , who designed their own movement layout .

I have yet to see a time-only Jurgensen or Potter with an L-E Piguet ebauche to take those drawings seriously. Potter for his ponts ronds movements used Rannaz' ebauches, for repeaters LeCoultre, and for Charmilles Badollet.

Another assumption regarding the drawings is that L-E Piguet drew Jurgensen's and Potter's bridges in order to not copy their designs. Notice that all the bridges seem to be drawn by the same hand that drew the very characteristic L-E Piguet's sonnerie design. We could come up with more explanatory assumptions.

There is no proof that it was Jurgensen who designed calibre ponts ronds. On the other hand, we know that the term Jurgensen caliber did not mean originally calibre ponts ronds.

The fact that different companies used different designs of the same caliber is well known. See my post here. It does not mean that they did not use also the very same caliber. A necessary condition does not imply that the sufficient one must follow.


Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That is a curious response on their part! Honest brokers always benefit when the bad practices of others are revealed.

They call it market destabilization. The value of watches, in particular wristwatches, is a function of established narrative. Let's take Patek Philippe Reference 2499; perpetual calendar with chronograph; the First Series brings more money at auctions than the Second Series. But the First Series was just to cover up PP's marketing mistake of making 2499 before the 1518 had been sold. So, instead of making a water protected design from the beginning, as planned, it was made imitating the non-protected 1518. But the market narrative has been that the earlier the better. And the market has adjusted to that narrative. Interestingly, the earlier 1518, generally, brings less than the 2499. It does not make sense but the collectible market is a function of herd mentality, which, in turn, is a function of narratives. The narrative does not have to be true, it is enough that it is repeated a few times. Then it spreads like weeds. Michael Korda raised the subject in his Marking Time. I might continue after my friends retire.
 

ADRIANIWC

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Journal Suisse d'Horlogerie, September 1883; 64, but the term had been used before, Jurgensen, Nardin, etc manufacturing books.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
In the book " Louise Elisee Piguet" by Fritz Von Osterhausen , there is a drawing (p 69 ). It shows how JJ , PP , Potter and U Nardin demanded one bridge in their movement to look like . I think this proves that it was the watchmakers such as Albert Potter , PP , JJ , UN Meylan , who designed their own movement layout .

I have yet to see a time-only Jurgensen or Potter with an L-E Piguet ebauche to take those drawings seriously. Potter for his ponts ronds movements used Rannaz' ebauches, for repeaters LeCoultre, and for Charmilles Badollet.

Another assumption regarding the drawings is that L-E Piguet drew Jurgensen's and Potter's bridges in order to not copy their designs. Notice that all the bridges seem to be drawn by the same hand that drew the very characteristic L-E Piguet's sonnerie design. We could come up with more explanatory assumptions.

There is no proof that it was Jurgensen who designed calibre ponts ronds. On the other hand, we know that the term Jurgensen caliber did not mean originally calibre ponts ronds.

The fact that different companies used different designs of the same caliber is well known. See my post here. It does not mean that they did not use also the very same caliber. A necessary condition does not imply that the sufficient one must follow.


Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That is a curious response on their part! Honest brokers always benefit when the bad practices of others are revealed.

They call it market destabilization. The value of watches, in particular wristwatches, is a function of established narrative. Let's take Patek Philippe Reference 2499; perpetual calendar with chronograph; the First Series brings more money at auctions than the Second Series. But the First Series was just to cover up PP's marketing mistake of making 2499 before the 1518 had been sold. So, instead of making a water protected design from the beginning, as planned, it was made imitating the non-protected 1518. But the market narrative has been that the earlier the better. And the market has adjusted to that narrative. Interestingly, the earlier 1518, generally, brings less than the 2499. It does not make sense but the collectible market is a function of herd mentality, which, in turn, is a function of narratives. The narrative does not have to be true, it is enough that it is repeated a few times. Then it spreads like weeds. Michael Korda raised the subject in his Marking Time. I might continue after my friends retire.
Philip,
Being not a native English speaker, it may be that I was not very clear. I appologise for that.
It is only the ébauche, that I initially posted that I want to refer to. The fact that there are so many reactions indicates that there is much confusion.
In his book , Taschenuhren by Reinard Meis, the author is pointing out the same as you ( p.34). Complicated watches (chronographs , repetition watches, tourbillions) were powered by relatve simple 'engines' : the ébauches were made by many different makers often were called 'West-Swiss' or 'school of La-Chaud-de-Fonds'. But not by the high end manufacturer. The ébauche makers copied the work from each other and also worked together. Their movements were not protected by patents as the patent office opened in Switzerland in 1888 only. Their work could be refined and altered by the manufacturer of the end product whos name came finally on the watch, making the owner ( or collector) believe that the complete watch had been made by the famous name on the watch. It is a shame that most of the ébauches were not signed or marked and that they remained anonymous in such way. Meis says : only those who have studied the history and have seen the drawings are familiar.
I tried to find the reference you provided ( Journal Suisse d'Horologie, 1883), but it seems not to be available on the internet for easy download.
Adrian.
 

astonvilla

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Philip -
I have yet to see a Albert Potter watch with a caliber Jurgensen movement , or a calibre ponts ronds as you call it.
No , the drawings in the book are not to prevent Louis Elisee Piguet from copy other makers design .
They are to show that some of LE Piguets clients had demands on how one brigde in the movement should look like.
Patek Philippes " S - bridge " was like a pp trademark . Patek Philippe had its characteristic bridge shape protected by a patent in the usa in 1891 . The reason why Patek Philippe did this could be, because they saw what happened to the Jurgensen calibre in particular , which was used by so many other makers.

I did not now that Badollet made repeater ebauches . From where do you have this information ?
H.S
 
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mosesgodfrey

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Wherever they started, other firms would finish them in various degrees. Sometimes they also signed them under the bridges. Meylan & Guignard in Lieu, after 1863, was one such firm that finished them to a high standard.

Found a great write up of a movement made several years after the OP's movement. Would love to congratulate that author, esp if he still has it. Perhaps he posts on this board, too.
 
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Philip Poniz

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No , the drawings in the book are not to prevent Louis Elisee Piguet from copy other makers design .
They are to show that some of LE Piguets clients had demands on how one brigde in the movement should look like.
Patek Philippes " S - bridge " was like a pp trademark . Patek Philippe had its characteristic bridge shape protected by a patent in the usa in 1891 . The reason why Patek Philippe did this could be, because they saw what happened to the Jurgensen calibre in particular , which was used by so many other makers.
I did not now that Badollet made repeater ebauches . From where do you have this information ?
H.S
Mr. Sandstrom,
Just to make sure we are both on the same page, I assume you were talking about the ponts ronds caliber with the counterclockwise train that has the center bridge coming out of the end of the anchor-looking balance cock. Adrian's picture is a good example of it. It would be very nice to know that Jules Jurgensen designed it. If you can prove it, the horological community would be grateful.

The drawings in the book you quoted do not prove anything. You can only draw hypotheses from them.

1. The same hand drew the bridge layouts of Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantine, and Albert H. Potter. If those companies themselves sent the drawings, they would have been by different hands.

2. There is a drawing in the book of a unique Potter's bridge he used in his detent movements. Potter bought those ebauches, as I mentioned above, from Rannaz, not from LEP. Additionally, we know that Potter was NOT a client of L-E Piguet (See Appendix B in the book). If not a client, why would he sent his designs to LEP?

3. Patek Philippe's bridge, pictured on p. 69, comes from the 1890 Class D10/129 US design registration. One might ask why Philippe wanted to patent it just in the States and not in his adopted country Switzerland? It is an old question. Usually, the assumption has been that the layout had already existed in Switzerland.

4. If JJ designed the caliber in question, why had the very vigorous Swiss horological press never mentioned it? Instead, they mentioned the term "Jurgensen Calibre" as describing certain technical features.

I didn't say that Potter used Badollet for his repeaters; I wrote that he used Badollet for his Charmilles.

Philip Poniz
 

astonvilla

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Yes , we are talking about the calibre in Adrians picture , The Jurgensen Calibre . But you use the same term ("ponts ronds") on the time only movements by Potter and the Caliber Jurgensen. They are 2 very different calibers . Are they both "ponts ronds"?
I really dont know if Potter had any business with L E Piguet . But the book was written with de help of Jaquet Frederic Piguet , a descendant of Louis Elisee Piguet . And I am sure he knows more about this than we do . Appendix B in the book shows companies that traded with LEP "au tournant du siecle" (the turn of the century). Potter started up many years before that.
According to Hatmut Zanke the " Jurgensen Caliber " Should have been called " The Audemars Caliber" , since he claims that L Audemars designed the movement . He also claims that L Audemars used this ebauche from 1840-1870 , but I have still not seen a single "caliber Jurgensen" movement with a Audemars signature.
According to John Knudsen, the first " Caliber Jurgensen" movements was made by Louis Audemars in cooperation with Piguet freres . The design was by Jules Jurgensen .
Jules Jurgensen started using this caliber in the late 1840 ies , and they continued to use it over 50 years. If it was a Audemars Caliber why can we not find any examples of it .
Many of the other companies who used this " Jurgensen Caliber " had not even started up, when JJ first used this caliber.
quote : " Someone began calling them Jürgensen caliber, and this misinformation spread like weeds."

A reporter for the National Horological Exposition in Zurich called it "The Caliber Jurgensen" in 1883 . Why do you think he called it " Caliber Jurgensen " . If there was another company that designed this movement , they would of course react to that . And we would not have the term " Caliber Jurgensen" today. H.S
 

Philip Poniz

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Yes , we are talking about the calibre in Adrians picture , The Jurgensen Calibre . But you use the same term ("ponts ronds") on the time only movements by Potter and the Caliber Jurgensen. They are 2 very different calibers . Are they both "ponts ronds"?
This is a good question. It is what prompted me to ask whether we were on the same page.
Originally, the term ponts ronds referred to the KWKS movements that had parallel bridges with rounded both ends. Later, the manufacturers called ponts ronds any movement with rounded ends. Most of them actually described them as "avec ponts arrondis" in the manufacturing books.

I really dont know if Potter had any business with L E Piguet .
Pages 156-57 list ALL the clients that LEP had. Potter's name is not there.

But the book was written with de help of Jaquet Frederic Piguet , a descendant of Louis Elisee Piguet . And I am sure he knows more about this than we do .
I am sure he does. The book does not say that LEP made watches for Potter. The book shows very characteristic Potter's design to emphasize the fact that LEP made his own design, which was highly characteristic to him:
"By focusing our attention on the clockwatches of Louis Elisée Piguet, the question that could be asked was whether a manufacturer of blanks like him, who had to adapt to the desires of his customers, could develop a style of construction of a caliber so exclusive and so typical that it is possible to recognize the mark of the manufacturer, as is the case with movements from Glashütte, Jules Jürgensen, IWC, Albert Potter, Patek Philippe or Breguet, for cite only the most significant."

According to Hatmut Zanke the " Jurgensen Caliber " Should have been called " The Audemars Caliber" , since he claims that L Audemars designed the movement . He also claims that L Audemars used this ebauche from 1840-1870 , but I have still not seen a single "caliber Jurgensen" movement with a Audemars signature.
Mr. Zantke claimed that, although Jurgensen bought many ebauches from Piguet freres, the latter bought them from Audemars. There are no records whatsoever supporting Mr. Zantke's baseless claim. On the contrary, all evidence shows that Piguet freres made their own ebauches. Whenever Jurgensen bought a movement from Audemars, it was noted that the ebauche came from Audemars, such as No 12211 for instance.

According to John Knudsen, the first " Caliber Jurgensen" movements was made by Louis Audemars in cooperation with Piguet freres . The design was by Jules Jurgensen.
Could you please point us to the source of this information? In his book he refers to Jurgensen's "patent lever watch", which, according to him denotes a watch with a "long pallet fork, which allows for a larger balance wheel" (p. 222). This is consistent with the description of the Jurgensen Calibre that a reporter from the 1883 Zurich exposition gave.

Jules Jurgensen started using this caliber in the late 1840 ies,
How did you come to this conclusion? I do not have any records earlier than the 1850's; No. 6419, for instance (still with square bridges), No. 6918 with ponts ronds, both from the 1850s.

A reporter for the National Horological Exposition in Zurich called it "The Caliber Jurgensen" in 1883 . Why do you think he called it " Caliber Jurgensen " .
No. He called it so for the reason I mentioned in my earlier post and above:
"Le calibre Jürgensen est devenu l'un des types les plus estimés en horlogerie de poche. L'échappement à ancre sur la ligne, longue fourchette, qui y est appliqué, est l'un des caractères distinctifs de cette création. »
Translating: "The Jürgensen caliber has become one of the most esteemed types in pocket watchmaking. The lever escapement on the line, long fork, which is applied to it, is one of the distinctive characteristics of this creation."
Refering to "Jürgensen caliber" he meant what Jurgensen himself called "patent lever watch", as referred by John Knudsen. The mystery is whether it was really patented. I hope that our patent experts, Messrs. VinSer and Mosesgodfrey will solve the mystery.

As a reference to a bridge design, the term Jurgensen Caliber started around 1900, or slightly later. Especially during the 1900s and 1910s, there are references to the Jurgensen Caliber, the Patek Philippe Caliber, etc. in reference to the bridge designs. I guess that other companies producing the same style movement complained, and the Swiss press mostly stopped such referencing in the 1920s.

Philip Poniz
 
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astonvilla

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My source is direct from John Knudsen .He says that the first "ponts arrondi" were made by Audemars and designed by Audemars. Zantke says that they were made in cooperation with piguet freres.
Yes I know what the Book about LEP says . But under the drawings it also says " Ponts de rouages type Louis Elisee Piguet et autres realises a la demande du client " in english "Louis Elisee Piguet type gear bridges and others made at the customer's request . These drawings are of course not from the houses of PP ,JJ , UN or AP , but most likely from Mr Osterhausen or Jaquet Frederic Piguet . But it confirms my view that these bridge shapes/designes belonged to the respective watch-houses ( Patek Philippe , Jules Jurgensen, Ulysse Nardin and Albert Potter.
"Pages 156-57 list ALL the clients that LEP had. Potter's name is not there" No It
shows companies that traded with LEP "au tournant du siecle" (the turn of the century).
There are 2 types caliber Jurgensen . Type 1 is in another Nawcc thread . 2 early examples owned by mr John Pavlik and Dr.Jon. From ca 1845-46 . As you can see it has the characteristic "center bridge coming out of the end of the anchor-looking balance cock" , but not the " butterfly-bridge" over the escapewheel and second wheel ,as type 2.


There is a excample on type 2 in the JJ book . JJ number 6606 from 1850 .
Here a couple of images from the JJ book by John Knudsen , and a Image from the book by Fritz von Osterhausen ( Louis Elisee Piguet) .


DSC_1028 (2).JPG DSC_1030 (2).JPG DSC_1032 (2).JPG
 

astonvilla

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Sorry that was wrong. It should be.
------- the first "ponts arrondi" were made by Audemars and designed by Jurgensen. -------
 

VinSer

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I would like to start by thanking everyone for the very interesting thread.

It has pushed me to have a look around, and I would like to share what I found. Please keep in mind that I am not an expert in Jürgensen work; I am also presenting everything I found for you to analyse.

The first mention of calibre Jürgensen I could find is from 1880 in the Journal du Jura referring to movements sold as consequence of the liquidation of the business of a certain B. Laval.
jura february 1880.jpg


Next in 1882 an offer to buy movements with calibre Jürgensen is published on L'Impartial ; two request are present:
  1. movements 19 and 20 lines, calibre Jurgensen, brass, straight-line lever with long fork, brass cap; and
  2. movements nickel, same type [i.e. calibre Jurgensen] and measures, short fork, big winding-wheel, spring "fondu", steel cap.
Hence, this insertion seems to indicate that calibre Jurgensen were being produced both with long and short fork.
impartial mars 1882.jpg


Then there is in 1883 the citation of the Journal Suisse d'Horlogerie where the straight-line lever with long fork is indicated as one of the most distinctive elements of the calibre Jürgensen. However in 1893 the same journal indicates that also the bridge of the third wheel has a recognisable shape.
journal suisse d'horlogerie septembre 1883.jpg journal suisse d'horlogerie april 1893.jpg

Speeding a little up [dates and source are readable at the top of the cutout], between 1883 and 1890 movements with calibre Jurgensen are offered as 20 lines nickel, 16 lines and 15 lines.


express agosto 1883.jpg federation juin 1889.jpg impartial september 1889.jpg impartial october 1889.jpg impatial october 1890.jpg

This announcement of April 1892 on L'Impartial seems to suggest that Japy Frères was producing ebauches for movements with calibre Jürgensen.
impartial april 1892.jpg

Also available in 13, 14, 1721 and 22 lines, and at low prices :)
impartial august 1892.jpg impartial mai 1895.jpg impartial september 1898.jpg federation mai 1900.jpg federation february 1901.jpg federation january 1902.jpg impartial mai 1905.jpg impartial april 1910.jpg federation decembre 1913.jpg federation july 1917.jpg .

After I could not find any more mentions of calibre Jürgensen.

My personal interpretation of the above is that by 1880 calibre Jürgensen was one of the basic calibers of the swiss industry, like the calibers Boston, Paris and Vacheron (and, full disclosure, I could not find how the Paris looks like). Ebauche mass-makers were producing them, in particular Japy Frères and most probably FHF.

Also the period of the insertions presented above coincides almost perfectly with the production period of the Regulateurs in gun-metal. So again in my opinion, the calibre Jürgensen the insertions talk about looks like this
calibre jurgensen photo.png


And this is the registration of the FHF model (on the left)
fontainemelon calibre.jpg


Ciao
 

mosesgodfrey

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I'd like to go back to the original question for a moment...

Does anyone know who the maker is of this movement?
Yes, there are myriad signatures, and yes there were copies of an original design--but note that there are variances in the intermediate bridge. The movement originally posted (linear, not offset) is the design that I have traced to the ebauche firm of Retor & Chatelain, which started in 1854. To the trade--and in exhibition--they were the fabrique Retor. I believe yours to be mid-1850s-1860s make.

THIS
1649736860798.png


NOT THIS
1649736910198.png


If you take off the dial, you may find the following stamp. It is undocumented, from before trademarks were tracked, but I have reason to believe it is Fabrique Ebauches Retor.

1649736698329.png


That is where it began. There may also be another stamp under the dial for an intermediate (the maker/finisher), who would be in Locle. E. Robert (signature) was not in Locle, by any records from the 1840s-1880. There were 2 "E. Roberts" or variant in Locle in 1862, but neither was in the watchmaking trades. This E. Robert was likely in Chaux-de-Fonds. But in my short time collecting this style, I've seen other movements stamped for the town in which they were sourced, not the signer's address, and this was a Locle movement.
 

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Watch Inspectors by Kent