Who has a KWM pivot gauge 4 sale?

[horologicaltribologist]

Could really use one! Pm me plesae!

 

[Tbucket]

Timesavers.com
part number 13483

 

[horologicaltribologist]

Eww, that is too expensive. Perrin has it for $132.99 after shipping, But I was hoping someone has 2 or 3 and one would be beat up (Hopefully REALLY beat up)! KWM Pivot Gauge KWM (Flume)

I have been hunting for one. I dont buy ANYTHING brand new.

Once you sheckout you will se that it is 163 or so that is in CAD not USD But this is not the point. Who has a disturbingly ugly one?

 

[wow]

There are three on eBay right now.

 

[bwclock]

Eww, that is too expensive. Perrin has it for $132.99 after shipping, But I was hoping someone has 2 or 3 and one would be beat up (Hopefully REALLY beat up)! KWM Pivot Gauge KWM (Flume)

I have been hunting for one. I dont buy ANYTHING brand new.

Once you sheckout you will se that it is 163 or so that is in CAD not USD But this is not the point. Who has a disturbingly ugly one?

I have seen them for sale from time to time on eBay. It does not hurt to take a peek there.
If all else fails , it would not be difficult to make one. All it is is a plate with inserted bushings and some lettering. You can overlay a copy of the numbers/letters on a piece of metal or stamp them in with your letter and number punches.

 

[Chris.K]

Don't waste your time or money on a pivot gauge and buy a quality digital micrometer. You can download and print out the KWM bushing chart that will tell you reamer size, bushing size and any related info just measure pivot diameter and plate thickness and the chart will tell you everything you need to know..

 

[wow]

Don't waste your time or money on a pivot gauge and buy a quality digital micrometer. You can download and print out the KWM bushing chart that will tell you reamer size, bushing size and any related info just measure pivot diameter and plate thickness and the chart will tell you everything you need to know..

I love my pivot gauge. When selecting the proper bushing, it is great because inserting the pivot in the gauge is just like inserting it in the newly installed bushing. The tilt needed is easy to see. I use it with every bushing job. Saves much time. IMHO.

 

[Willie X]

I've always wondered why you wouldn't just use the bushing?? The diameter of the bushing often changes when pressed into the plate anyway. Willie X

 

[horologicaltribologist]

There are three on eBay right now.

WOW, wow, None of those are less expensive than a brand new one from perrin which is $132 including shipping....

The point of a pivot gauge is the following.

KWM bushings are finished and ready for install and use, they do not need reaming or smoothing. They are specially prepared and the hole is aligned horixontally at the same angle as the od STRAIGHT, https://www.hswalsh.com/sites/default/files/related_files/KWM Bushing System.pdf READ IT IN THE BROCHURE,

You can, by feel choose one that fits your polished pivots and install and use directly without running a reamer and a smoothing broach. You cannot chose a bushing by size without being a chart checking Pointdexter. And in the end, You will still check it in the end with feel.

Sometimes the previous size is too small and the next size is too loose only then is it the cause for broaching and smoothing!

A huge time saver. Most people cannot quantify a tolerance on pivot size and a hole diameter in a bushing and make a selection based on measurements. Even the people with the micrometer insert the wheel into the bushing and rock it EVERY TIME and run the broach a tad if it feel just a "Bit" too tight

Just try to hold a bushing in a pair of tweezers and see if the fit is good. Not easy/possible.

https://www.hswalsh.com/sites/default/files/related_files/KWM Bushing System.pdf please read page 2

Any one have a dusty KWM extra pivot gauge??

 

[horologicaltribologist]

Diameters and size of the bushing hole does NOT change, the force of the plate and tolerance of the holes cut would need to be SIGNIFICATLY higer to distort the ID. I could calculate how much force it would take to yeild the ID but it comes nowhere near in this operation. Are you deburring your bushings after installation? Likely a Bit of material from edges is mushroomed SLIGHTlY into your id, Simply deburr the bushing after installation. or use an oil sink for a turn or 2.

 

[Willie X]

I would disagree with most of the statements made in post #9 and #10.

I also don't think I'm going to be using ketchup to clean my clocks either! Ha, Willie X

 

[horologicaltribologist]

I've always wondered why you wouldn't just use the bushing?? The diameter of the bushing often changes when pressed into the plate anyway. Willie X

Diameters and size of the bushing hole does NOT change, the force of the plate and tolerance of the holes cut would need to be SIGNIFICATLY higer to distort the ID. I could calculate how much force it would take to yeild the ID but it comes nowhere near


. Are you deburring your bushings after installation? Likely a Bit of material from edges is mushroomed SLIGHTlY into your id, Simply deburr the bushing after installation. or use an oil sink for a turn or 2.

I would disagree with all statements made in post #9. Willie X

Please specify which one and let us discuss. If we learn something from you and save time that's what this is all about.


Have you been sharpening your bushing reamers? That could explain why you have to hammer extra hard, distorting your bushings.

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

I purchased my pivot gauge about 40 years ago or so and it was nearly as expensive then as now. More so in real dollar terms. However, I was starting in the clock repair business. The time it has saved me over the years has more than paid for it. For a bench mechanic, time is money.
If the cost is going to take food away from the wife and kids, that is one thing of course. Even if I had to sell a clock to buy one I would do it in a heartbeat. I realize I have a different attitude towards tools than many on the forum. I do think a person has to be honest with him/her self and ask what are the priorities.? To have a hobby where one spends as little as possible? No problem. This is one particular tool that can be used on nearly every single job. Even though a caliper will suffice, it does not give nearly the pleasure in this use as the pivot gauge does. It is an investment and when one dies, the widow can sell it on eBay.

Quote from post #12
Diameters and size of the bushing hole does NOT change, the force of the plate and tolerance of the holes cut would need to be SIGNIFICATLY higer to distort the ID.

I will say that my experience from doing thousands of bushing over the years is that the ID of the bushing once compressed into the hole does indeed decrease slightly. Enough that if the bushing was just large enough to fit over the pivot before insertion, that broaching is needed.

 

[bruce linde]

KWM bushings are finished and ready for install and use, they do not need reaming or smoothing. You cannot chose a bushing by size without being a chart checking Pointdexter.

every one of us gets to share their individual perspectives... but that doesn't make any of us the last word on any subject.

i disagree with your comments.... most of my clocks are well over 100 years old. pivots have been polished, trimmed down to remove wear, repivoted with whatever was handy, etc. standard sizes almost never fit perfectly and need to be tailored. i almost ALWAYS end up hand smoothing (if not broaching) to get the exact fit and feel i want... on case-by-case basis.

i have (and love my) pivot gauge, but i use it to get me close... and then custom dial in everything.

Sometimes the previous size is too small and the next size is too loose only then is it the cause for broaching and smoothing!

again, disagree.

Most people cannot quantify a tolerance on pivot size and a hole diameter in a bushing and make a selection based on measurements. Even the people with the micrometer insert the wheel into the bushing and rock it EVERY TIME and run the broach a tad if it feel just a "Bit" too tight

sorry, but that is an unsupportable statement. who is 'most people'? most hobbyists? most professional repair people? based on a survey of how many people published where? not sure what qualifies you to make that statement, but if you've been the lead instructor at a horology institute for 35 years and seen hundreds of such people, i apologize!

in my experience, most of the more experienced folks here use a variety of tools... but especially micrometers / calipers... to learn exactly what they're dealing with.

Diameters and size of the bushing hole does NOT change, the force of the plate and tolerance of the holes cut would need to be SIGNIFICATLY higer to distort the ID.

another unsupportable statement. the size of the hole being bushed changes as it gets reamed... either by hand or using a bushing tool. the size of the I.D. of a bushing can change when the busher tries to force a bushing into a hole that is ever-so-slightly too small... which is why god gave us broaches.


either way, it happens all the time... probably more so with (softer) german KWM bushings than (harder) american ones, and certainly less than with (hardest, i think?) bronze bushings... but to say that diameters and sizes don't change is an gross over-simplification.




lastly, this is a 'how to' (or 'how i did it') forum for discussing repair questions and shares... and not a 'parts wanted' forum.

 

[horologicaltribologist]

Did you read the PDF by KWM?

I myself only had #17 bushings and have had to ream and use a smoothing broach on every single bushing so far. I have not thus far used a bushing unbroached and smoothing boached. Just stating what KWM states about their bushings in the pdf I posted.

Sometimes the previous size is too small and the next size is too loose only then is it the cause for broaching and smoothing!
again, disagree.

I was repeating that the PDF stated. Again, I have not thus far done anything but broaching and smoothing. I have not thus far used a bushing without modifying its ID.

So you would say it is better to use a smaller hole and enlarge it to JUST your liking and that is better?

Do you ream and smoothing broach from both sides?

Most people cannot quantify a tolerance on pivot size and a hole diameter in a bushing and make a selection based on measurements. Even the people with the micrometer insert the wheel into the bushing and rock it EVERY TIME and run the broach a tad if it feel just a "Bit" too tight









33 minutes ago

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horologicaltribologist said:


KWM bushings are finished and ready for install and use, they do not need reaming or smoothing. You cannot chose a bushing by size without being a chart checking Pointdexter.

every one of us gets to share their individual perspectives... but that doesn't make any of us the last word on any subject.

i disagree with your comments.... most of my clocks are well over 100 years old. pivots have been polished, trimmed down to remove wear, repivoted with whatever was handy, etc. standard sizes almost never fit perfectly and need to be tailored. i almost ALWAYS end up hand smoothing (if not broaching) to get the exact fit and feel i want... on case-by-case basis.

i have (and love my) pivot gauge, but i use it to get me close... and then custom dial in everything.

horologicaltribologist said:


Sometimes the previous size is too small and the next size is too loose only then is it the cause for broaching and smoothing!

again, disagree.

horologicaltribologist said:


Most people cannot quantify a tolerance on pivot size and a hole diameter in a bushing and make a selection based on measurements. Even the people with the micrometer insert the wheel into the bushing and rock it EVERY TIME and run the broach a tad if it feel just a "Bit" too tight

sorry, but that is an unsupportable statement. who is 'most people'? most hobbyists? most professional repair people? based on a survey of how many people published where? not sure what qualifies you to make that statement, but if you've been the lead instructor at a horology institute for 35 years and seen hundreds of such people, i apologize!

in my experience, most of the more experienced folks here use a variety of tools... but especially micrometers / calipers... to learn exactly what they're dealing with.

People can choose the correct size bushing to fit a pivot but in the end they SIZE IT BY HAND! Unless you have a pivot gauge, and use the bushing that fits with a good lean/rock as stated in the KWM instrucitons. I really want to get to the bottom of is this is correct or if the tapered hole.triangle if both sides are reamed that pivot will now be riding on is the correct way.

Look I am Mr caliper, I use a mitutoyo dial caliper to measure each pivot and use the chart online or my class mates wooden hole box to choose approptately sized bushing. Even still, he says go one size smaller and use cutting broach and smoothing broach to tune the size in.

So again, Why does KWM state their diameters are perfect and ready for use if everyone is going to go ahead and choose a smaller size and ream and smooth it every time anyway?

In the end, using a broach is going to form a CONICAL hole. The pivot is usually straight. Are you telling me the pivot is better off with 1 small contact point close to oil well?

horologicaltribologist said:


Diameters and size of the bushing hole does NOT change, the force of the plate and tolerance of the holes cut would need to be SIGNIFICATLY higer to distort the ID.

i was staring the ID of the bushing inserted DOES not change after installation because of the interference fit.

Please understand what I am saying. If a bushing has an ID of 1.0mm after you install the bushing the ID will still be 1.0mm

The force on the outside of the bushing is not great enough to distort the ID unless you have been sharpening your reamer lately. and then, THE ID WILL CHANGE FROM THE HAMMERING NOT THE PLATE PRESSURE.



Once again, please select a bushing size and thickness and I will calculate how much force will be required to distort its ID and tell you how much force the plate will actually put on the bushing. You will see the amount of intereference pressure is not enough in most cases to even come close to distorting ID.

 

[bruce linde]

Did you read the PDF by KWM?

i have not... nor does it matter what some company's marketing materials say the size of my bushing should be if the pivot isn't the exact size expected.

although i tend to recommend avoiding blanket statements, i feel pretty confident saying:

"every pivot and bushing needs to be matched appropriately. assuming or expecting good fits is not a good strategy."

do you disagree?

 

[horologicaltribologist]

Well I am not sure! And I think it merits further discussion! I am worried the tapered nature of the broach will cause a nice tight hand reamed fit bit it wouldnt last as last long as the sharp point wears away!

I am also concerned all the force of the pivot will pr spread over a very small surface area, possibly causing premature wear on the pivot.

Also the oil film that s supposed to be floating the pivot, will not have the complete surface area of the pivot just the sharpeend point!

See my extremely technical drawing!

 

[bruce linde]

there are many previous threads in this forum discussing using gage pins, milling machines, bushing tools vs. bushing by hand, etc.

i don't think the tapers are quite as much as in your illustration, but it's a fair point.

having forced more than one bushing into a slightly too small hole i can personally attest to the need to (sometimes) broach back to the right size.

also, there are people on the message board who have been doing this for decades, and i tend to follow their recommendations.

 

[horologicaltribologist]

I can say one think we should NOT be using tapered broaches and should be using straight reamers or stepped broaches that were centrless ground or swiss screw lathe turned and faceted in steps as opposed to a long taper. each step corresponding with a thosand or half thousand each step slightly taller than tallest bushing with the EXACT size needed so the hole is aligned with the pivot! What would you say about this?

Are there straight broaches. reamers this size that will cut a straight hole?

 

[bruce linde]

Are there straight broaches. reamers this size that will cut a straight hole?

uhm... that would be drill bit.

the reason there are tapered broaches after hundreds of years is because there is no way to insert a straight broach in a hole and make it larger evenly. either a straight broach would fit into an existing hole, or not.

and... the tapered-ness makes it self-centering... which is why worn pivot holes are either hand-filed opposite the wear, or those using bushing tools set up very carefully so they can use the reaming bit to perform essentially the same task.

yes, ideally, pop in a perfect busing and a perfect pivot happens to fit perfectly.... that doesn't happen very often in my experience.

oh... and the angle of taper is going to be different depending on which of the seven heights of KWM bushing you're using (1.0, 1.4, 1.7, 1.9, 2.7, 3.0, or 4.0).

and... you can carefully minimize any tapering by broaching from both sides.

i guess it comes down to whether you're talking on an absolute theoretical level or a practical one.

 

[horologicaltribologist]

I am not gonna lie, practically I reamed and smoothing broached from both sides and the wheels ran so smooth long tigh and sweet compared to the previous slappy pappyness.

I don't mean drill bits lol!! Like drill bits, reamers also remove material from the workpiece on which they are used. However, reamers remove significantly less material than drill bits. The primary purpose of reaming is simply to create smooth walls in an existing hole

There is a way, to ream centered, and it appears in valve guide reamers and in a stepped reamer that I am describing, having a guide tip in the front that corresponds with the hole diameter using the hole as a guide of sorts.

But i am describing and creating a problem where for 500 years there was no issue.


also a stepped reamer I am talking about incrasing in size by 1 or 2 thousands per step, the previous "Layer would be guided by the next "step" and so on. so it would also stay centered and angled.


Which can be viewed in this next highly technical drawing

The steps in between each "layer would be minuscule 1-2 thousands per jump the previous hole would be guided by the initial hole.


and it would result in smooth walled round holes that match the angles of the od.

As the c goes into the hole, it would ream then a would ream/drill/cut straight.

The question lies next, how to you use a straight smoothing broach to work harden the walls on a parallels hole? Probably have corresponding smoothing rods that would have like a .0002 clearance and spin it

 

[TooManyClocks]

I fall into the camp of most who don’t find the gauge particularly useful. The gauge might get used on a pivot while replacing a bushing or two, then I’ll find myself going back to my $12 digital calipers and figuring out what bushing is needed that way. I can’t even explain why, except it just seems simpler to use the calipers…

The only reason I even own a gauge is it came with a bushing machine.

That said, I’ll send you a PM.

John

 

[bwclock]

I fall into the camp of most who don’t find the gauge particularly useful. The gauge might get used on a pivot while replacing a bushing or two, then I’ll find myself going back to my $12 digital calipers and figuring out what bushing is needed that way. I can’t even explain why, except it just seems simpler to use the calipers…

The only reason I even own a gauge is it came with a bushing machine.

That said, I’ll send you a PM.

John

I fall into the camp of most who do find the gauge particularly useful. On occasions I may use my digital calipers to measure a pivot, but find the pivot gauge more convenient.
Bruce

 

[Rod Schaffter]

If cost is really an issue, get a piece of 1/16" aluminum strip from your local homecenter, drill and ream holes to take KWM bushings, and install bushings and label to cover your desired range...

 

[bwclock]

If cost is really an issue, get a piece of 1/16" aluminum strip from your local homecenter, drill and ream holes to take KWM bushings, and install bushings and label to cover your desired range...

Agreed, Ron. Here is comment I posted in this thread yesterday along the same vein.
I have seen them for sale from time to time on eBay. It does not hurt to take a peek there.
If all else fails , it would not be difficult to make one. All it is is a plate with inserted bushings and some lettering. You can overlay a copy of the numbers/letters on a piece of metal or stamp them in with your letter and number punches.
Maybe you and I share some DNA!
Bruce

 

[bruce linde]

also a stepped reamer I am talking about incrasing in size by 1 or 2 thousands per step, the previous "Layer would be guided by the next "step" and so on. so it would also stay centered and angled.

and what about when you need .0013mm?

i guess i don’t understand what dog you’re chasing here. if using tapered broaches doesn’t meet your horological standards, don’t use them.

if you don’t want to pay to have someone else make your pivot gauge, make your own. reproducing the kwm gauge would take more time than my time is worth… which is why i bought one. $133 for such a useful tool… one that you in particular swear by… seems like a no-brainer.

the motto of the perl programming language is TMTOWTDI… there’s more than one way to do it. you are welcome to settle on the ways that work for you but should be careful about (coming off as) preaching to others... especially folks here who have decades more experience than you and me combined, and employ best practices honed over hundreds of years of horology… no need to reinvent the wheel.

and… it's not what you've got, it's how you use it. roger federer and i both have tennis racquets. willie and i both have tapered cutting and smoothing broaches. 'nuff said on that front.

sharing what works for you as a personal preference is fine… but advocating one's personal preferences over others' will elicit one of two responses: thanks for sharing, or who the heck are you (generic)?

one size (so to speak, given the topic) does not fit all.

 

[shutterbug]

I must be behind the times. The only measuring I do is by selecting a bushing, try it on the pivot in question and determine the fit. If it's not good, I try another. Eyeballing bushings for size is pretty fast and easy. I rarely need more than two tries. I also prefer a slightly smaller bushing so I can repair the hole if it gets squished out of round.

 

[bruce linde]

I must be behind the times.

you‘re just noticing?!?

 

[horologicaltribologist]

Yep i would have a few hunderd hardened straight rods. And a few dozen stepped reamers. This is the cost of having straight holes!!

Actually the straight smoothing broaches can be stepped too!! I found some examples of stepped reamers but they are much too large.

Really would be quite easy yet tedious. and simple on a swiss screw machine.

Really should not be too difficult to make out of 01 yool steel!! and my Surface grinder.. and some weird fixturing

 

[Willie X]

Put an infinite number if steps on your "stepped reamer" and, guess what ...
you have a tapered broach.

Also, .1mm or .004" is a very big change in the fitment of a clock pivot. You don't fit pivots into bushings in .004" steps.

Just say no to stepped reamers. Willie X

 

[bruce linde]

ok, i'm closing this thread. everything has been said... thank you.