Mechanical WW Which oils and grease to use for watch services?

[KoenWatches]

Hello,

first, I will introduce myself. I'm Koen and i live in the Netherlands. English is my second lenguage, so it will not be perfect.
I'm studying Horticulture and bussines managment. I doubted if I'd like to study watchmaking, but I chose to do not.

Two years ago i started collecting either pocket and wristwatches and repair/service them.
I now know i want to continue with this hobby, so I want to buysome new tools and materials.
I started to hate my cheap set of screwdrivers, so I have allready ordered al set of Bergeon ergonomic screwdrivers.
I also got a good movement holder, Bergeon oilers and I'm going to buy som new/extra tweezers.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BERGEON-7899-A10-WATCHMAKERS-ERGONOMIC-SCREWDRIVER-SET-/320737279080

Because i still use my first flask of non-synthetic oil(moebius 8000/4), I now want to buy new oils and greases.
What types of oil and greases would be best to buy?
I would like o use is for both pocket and wristwatches.

Greets,
Koen

 

[Skutt50]

Welcome to the Forum Koen,

It sounds like you came to the right place........

If you are serious about watchmaking you need to get serious stuff just like you indicated you are in the process of doing......

Regarding watch oils, which is your question, I think you need to do some reading about oiling a movement.....
You need some 3-4 different oils/greases for an ordinary movement and to cover wristwatches you need a few more..... Yet some if you intend to work on clocks......

If you do a search on "Moebius" and another on "Oiling chart" you should find a lot of information.....

 

[tkarter]

There is a lot I need to learn about this also. I have read so many conflicting oil charts I too am confused so continue to use the oils the old watchmakers told me to use. Which is the Moebius 8000.
I have what is considered a good cleaning machine too and set it up like the manual said to and hear not to use what i am using.
Seems like somebody could just say what to use and why the old ways are bad.
I read one oiling chart it says buy this oil and another says this other oil and I too am confused on what oils to use.

tk

 

[Skutt50]

Could this be of some help:

http://www.ofrei.com/page951.html

 

[gmorse]

Hi,

This is fine, but bear in mind that it's an old document, probably 20 years or so as Frei admits, and things have moved on since. I'd be inclined to discard any non-synthetic oils, as they do deteriorate over time. This is a more up to date Moebius table, although still a few years old. Using 9415 on pallet jewels does appear markedly to improve balance amplitude.

There are many yards of posts in this forum on this subject if you care to search.

Regards,

Graham

 

[DaveyG]

There is some good information here:

http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.com/e...view_of_Modern_Lubricants_Used_in_Watchmaking


and the British Horological Instutute website has a paper on lubrication - which I can't find at the moment.

 

[gmorse]

Hi,

I couldn't find it in the newly-designed (improved?) site either, but here's a copy as an attachment:

View attachment the_practical_lubrication_of_clocks_and_watches.pdf

Regards,

Graham

 

[DaveyG]

Well done Graham!

 

[Hector77]

Hi Graham, I, like you, I'am learning how to service wristwatches only, so, the pro please correct me if im wrong, pocket watches has bigger parts and they might use a little heavier oils, but not sure since i don't work on them.

Before I tell you what i use, yes, buy good quality tweezers (their tip are precision made to not scratch the parts and to have a very good grip of small parts), and at least 2 brass ones, a "AA" and a # "2" in brass, very good to work in delicate movement and prevent heavy or not scratches at all, beside they are not magnetic cheaper.

as for the oil, for most of my 1950's to late 80's watches i work on, i use Moebius Synt-A-Lube 9010 2cc bottle (trust me, that stuff will last for ever) i put a tip on train wheels jewels, on balance staff and escapement wheel.

Moebius 8300 20ml bottle, grease, i use to lubricate the main spring and barrel and some other parts that has slight friction depending the watch type. Some times i put a little bit on the winding rotor bearings for the automatic watches.

KT-22 winding gear lube, crown wheel, and any other part that interact with the winding mechanism that you put pressure by pushing the stem or pulling out.

there you go, i use the cheap oilier tips, my goal is to get the automatic oilier but they are to expensive, so, i learn the old way.

By the way the link with the practical lubrication is your answer. Nice article, I'll read it. too Thanks

regards

Hector M
Miami , FL

Hi,

I couldn't find it in the newly-designed (improved?) site either, but here's a copy as an attachment:
[pdf]450522[/pdf]


Regards,

Graham

 

[psfred]

Moebius Syth-a-lube is fine stuff, and there are other fully synthetic oils out there. Synthetic clock oil (Nye and others) will work well on the slow speed pivots in pocket watches and sliding parts, or you can use KT-22.

Avoid any "natural" oils -- these turn gummy fairly fast (a year or two) and eventually harden into varnish which is difficult to remove.

Of course, please use proper oilers and technique, too -- I've cleaned the slime off too many watches that appear to have been either sprayed or dunked in oil over the last few years!

9415 is wonderful stuff, I use it on every escapement these days.

Peter

 

[tkarter]

I have yet to find an oiler that will put the amount of oil needed. Can someone explain choosing an oiler right along with saying use the search function?

tk

 

[gmorse]

Hi tk,

Have you read the document on practical lubrication I posted earlier in this thread? It does give some guidance on this.

Regards,

Graham

 

[MichaelBriggs]

As an example, the assembly instructions for the ETA 6497 at http://www.eta.ch/swisslab/6497/6947.html show recommended oils (click on assembly, then oil symbols) and locations for their uses. They use D5, 9010, 9501 and 941. A datasheet for that movement updates the recommendations to HP 1300 or D5, 9010, 9501 or Jismaa 124 and 941 or 9415.

 

[psfred]

Dip oilers will deliver varying amounts of oil depending on how deeply they are dipped into the oil when picking it up. You will have to experiment to find out just how deeply you want the "spade" end to go into the oil to put the right amount onto the pivot you are oiling, as this will vary with the size of the pivot and jewel.

It's easy to dip them too deep -- I've learned to use the side of the drop of oil in my oil cups -- the distance for the edge of the drop will determine how much oil I pick up, and I stick the oiler in a bit of pithwood after EVERY use -- keeps the amounts consistent and the oiler clean.

It is very tempting to grossly over-oil when starting out, I think. Best way to determine is to oil the watch then dis-assemble and check for the correct amount on the flat face of uncapped pivot jewels. There should be a visible ring of oil slightly less in diameter than the flat face on the pivot (how's that for accuracy?). Point being that there should be oil between the flat face of the jewel and the thrust face of the pivot, but not enough to extend past the face of the pivot -- a puddle there will cause drag rather than reducing friction, which is the point of the oil in the first place.

Cheap dip oilers should be examined to make sure they are flat, pointed, and spade-shaped. They are not so hard they cannot easily be modified, either by flattening them with a hammer and anvil or by careful grinding. They are usually not flat enough and often blunt, which makes it difficult to deliver the oil exactly where you want it.

Automatic oilers are probably better, but expensive enough most of us hobby watchmakers will have to make do with dip oilers for a while until we get caught up on other expensive tools, like lathes.

Peter

 

[tkarter]

Yes it and several others. I remain as confused on oils as I was. The reason is conflicting information. So I am going to reckon any oil I use will be better than none and know if it won't run while dry it won't run with oil.

tk

Hi tk,

Have you read the document on practical lubrication I posted earlier in this thread? It does give some guidance on this.

Regards,

Graham

 

[tkarter]

Thanks for the information, The only oiler I have that will do what described in my hands is the capillary oiler and I can see it dispenses the little bit of oil needed. It has its faults too,
I still have trouble getting the oil out of the bottles it comes in. LOL
tk

Dip oilers will deliver varying amounts of oil depending on how deeply they are dipped into the oil when picking it up. You will have to experiment to find out just how deeply you want the "spade" end to go into the oil to put the right amount onto the pivot you are oiling, as this will vary with the size of the pivot and jewel.

It's easy to dip them too deep -- I've learned to use the side of the drop of oil in my oil cups -- the distance for the edge of the drop will determine how much oil I pick up, and I stick the oiler in a bit of pithwood after EVERY use -- keeps the amounts consistent and the oiler clean.

It is very tempting to grossly over-oil when starting out, I think. Best way to determine is to oil the watch then dis-assemble and check for the correct amount on the flat face of uncapped pivot jewels. There should be a visible ring of oil slightly less in diameter than the flat face on the pivot (how's that for accuracy?). Point being that there should be oil between the flat face of the jewel and the thrust face of the pivot, but not enough to extend past the face of the pivot -- a puddle there will cause drag rather than reducing friction, which is the point of the oil in the first place.

Cheap dip oilers should be examined to make sure they are flat, pointed, and spade-shaped. They are not so hard they cannot easily be modified, either by flattening them with a hammer and anvil or by careful grinding. They are usually not flat enough and often blunt, which makes it difficult to deliver the oil exactly where you want it.

Automatic oilers are probably better, but expensive enough most of us hobby watchmakers will have to make do with dip oilers for a while until we get caught up on other expensive tools, like lathes.

Peter

 

[gmorse]

I still have trouble getting the oil out of the bottles it comes in.

Hi tk,

It's easier to dip a small, clean watch screwdriver in the oil bottle and transfer just a drop into the oil pot; that way the bulk of the oil stays clean and can go back in its dark can.

Regards,

Graham

 

[tkarter]

Thanks again for the advice. I have been doing it that way just didn't know it was the right way.

tk

 

[KoenWatches]

A bit late but I wanted to thank you all for your greet replies. I printed Graham's oiling instructions have them at my workbench.
I'm going to buy Moebius 9010, 9020, 941 Microgliss D5. A friend of mine(also watchmaker gave me some graphite grease for mainspring of automati watches. He also gave me some grease whitch is suitable for watches.

 

[davestanda]

speaking of oil and conflicting techinques , how do you people out there oil a mainspring When i first started i just put four drops of 8200 on different spots of the mainspring while it was wound in the barrel...I read that way is wrong, even though the old text say it is ok...Now i use watch paper spread a thin layer of oil and pull the mainspring through ,till i can't anymore without damaging the inside coil..Yes , i know they make tweezers for that but i'm cheap when it comes to things i can do without...I am the same way with underware, i refuse to pay more then 5 dollars for a white t shirt , or boxers for that matter...I just can't see spending 30 dollars on one pair of shorts.... With tools i can't do without( like the rollerjewel tweezers i just bought) i'll spend whatever i can...I to heard about that teflon grease for mainsprings...anyone esle try that?? i once told a local watchmaker about that , he said he never even heard about it,,even though i sent him a link explaining it..Which is understandable ,but he pride himself on being up to date on new tech out there...

 

[emso]

well best choice is:
9010- you all know this one
HP1300-syntetic replacement for d5
8300-mainspring barrel
9504-grease where needed
9514-pallet stones

this is all you need for basic work
regarding the oiling of the mainspring, the new mainsprings come with a teflon coating so no need for a teflon grease. all you need is 5 spots of 8300 on a barrel bottom and top also hp-1300 on the arbor. the grease will spread as the mainspring is wound few times. on automatics as said you ned graphite grease on the barrel wall on few places(in all of the notches if there are any).

br
emso

 

[Al J]

well best choice is:
9010- you all know this one
HP1300-syntetic replacement for d5
8300-mainspring barrel
9504-grease where needed
9514-pallet stones

this is all you need for basic work
regarding the oiling of the mainspring, the new mainsprings come with a teflon coating so no need for a teflon grease. all you need is 5 spots of 8300 on a barrel bottom and top also hp-1300 on the arbor. the grease will spread as the mainspring is wound few times. on automatics as said you ned graphite grease on the barrel wall on few places(in all of the notches if there are any).

br
emso

Hmmm - new alloy mainspring with the teflon coating do not need any oils or greases on the spring itself - or the barrel floor or lid. For manual winding just oil the barrel arbor, and for automatic oil the arbor and apply braking grease to the barrel wall as normal.

Cheers, Al

 

[psfred]

I assume you mean molybdenum disulfide containing grease, not graphite, as you won't be able to find any grease with graphite in it intended for watches.

The moly has some very interesting characteristics, it holds well then become very slippery under pressure, prefect for things you don't want to move until "commanded" to by spring pressure, etc.

This behavior means the automatic spring bridle will not creep until the watch is fully wound, and will then slips smoothly.

Graphite will not do the job anywhere near as well.

Peter

 

[emso]

Hmmm - new alloy mainspring with the teflon coating do not need any oils or greases on the spring itself - or the barrel floor or lid. For manual winding just oil the barrel arbor, and for automatic oil the arbor and apply braking grease to the barrel wall as normal.

Cheers, Al

well i agree on that with you Al anyway i still use small quantity just to be sure, but very small quantity not much to avoid vacuum efect between the coils of mainspring.

br
emso

 

[ashorloger]

HP1300 to replace D5, 9010, 9020, Molykote DX or Jismaa 124 or Moebius 9501 and Moebius pallet fork oil

 

[olooki]

This is probably a silly question, but if the oil container says the oil expires in a couple of years, does that mean it also goes bad in that short of a time span once it Is on the watch, or does it magically transform into a substance that will last for 10+ years once it touches the metal of the watch? Or, does this prove it is just a marketing gimmick to sell more oil?

 

[everydaycats]

Hello,

first, I will introduce myself. I'm Koen and i live in the Netherlands. English is my second lenguage, so it will not be perfect.
I'm studying Horticulture and bussines managment. I doubted if I'd like to study watchmaking, but I chose to do not.

Two years ago i started collecting either pocket and wristwatches and repair/service them.
I now know i want to continue with this hobby, so I want to buysome new tools and materials.
I started to hate my cheap set of screwdrivers, so I have allready ordered al set of Bergeon ergonomic screwdrivers.
I also got a good movement holder, Bergeon oilers and I'm going to buy som new/extra tweezers.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BERGEON-7899-A10-WATCHMAKERS-ERGONOMIC-SCREWDRIVER-SET-/320737279080

Because i still use my first flask of non-synthetic oil(moebius 8000/4), I now want to buy new oils and greases.
What types of oil and greases would be best to buy?
I would like o use is for both pocket and wristwatches.

Greets,
Koen

Hello, Koen, and welcome. Before I read this thread I bet it ends in as much confusion as it starts. Oil is a subject that is the topic of many threads each year and if you search here you will see a long list. Since I work on wrist watches only my main goto oils are as follows: 9010 and D5 are your friends and 8300 barrel grease is on my bench too. Good luck and I hope to see you around sharing your new knowledge.
Regards

 

[John Runciman]

This is probably a silly question, but if the oil container says the oil expires in a couple of years, does that mean it also goes bad in that short of a time span once it Is on the watch, or does it magically transform into a substance that will last for 10+ years once it touches the metal of the watch? Or, does this prove it is just a marketing gimmick to sell more oil?

The problem is it's a question with too many variables and too many unknown factors. Like for instance if your watch is a non-sealed mechanical watch versus a water resistant watch it is sealed up nice and tight the life of the lubricant is going to be different. So in a dust resistant case with zero water resistance dust can get in conceivably moisture will get in the rust will form the life of that watches going to be considerably different than if you had a water resistant diving type watch where environmental factors are going to be less of a problem. In other words those pesky environmental factors like dust but the worst one is rust mixed with whatever is left to lubricate it forms a really nice grinding compound It can do a heck of a lot of damage even if the lubrication is still good.

A popular lubrication for hobbyists is Moebius 8000. Now why is this so popular easy just go to Amazon look it up slightly less than $10 a bottle of its cheap and it's made by a famous Swiss lubrication company so it's a cheap Swiss oil outstanding for hobbyists use except in relationship to your question how does it relate well I have the tech sheet below and I snipped out an image. notice once you open the bottle one year and it self-destructs and that's one year maximum for self-destruction although they don't actually say the Bottle self-destructs which is sad but that would probably be a liability factor of the bottle exploded or something so it is just a cautionary warning.

We end up with a quality control problem typically products you purchase will have a date you might not tell you when they're going to expire but at least have a clue as to how old it is. Up until relatively recently horological lubrication did not have dates there was no way of telling how old that bottle is. If you're dealing with natural oils they can be quite disastrous if whatever you were servicing all of them came back because the oil went bad superfast because perhaps the bottles 20 years old but you can't tell by visually looking at it. Or that purchase of the whole box of lubrication's off of eBay for $10 might've seemed like a great purchase now but if you were servicing getting money and had angry customers might not be which you want to have.

A lot of people were concerned over how old is the bottle of oil. In the watch companies also have a concern over environmental things again like how did you get the oil out of the bottle and basically how much contamination did you put in the bottle taking the oil out. Even the oil in the oil cups they have a recommended changing interval because the oil in the oil cups will get contaminated with time especially people don't put the lid back on it fills with dust. Yes it seems like common sense would be cover your oil when not in use but I've seen where I work the oils sometimes covers not placed back on and I knew someone who is doing inspections of shops that they set watches two and he would often times C oil cups filled with dust because it was no lid at all.

Below is a link to a video it's an interesting video it's a Q&A with Sellita Watch company. Add around 18 minutes is an interesting question which applies to this discussion. How often do they recommend servicing their watches and the answer is five years. Five years seems to be a nice number that most companies are going with. Now if we take your original question what is this all mean daily bottle a synthetic oil that says it is a shelflife of six years open the bottle lubricate the watch one day short of six years in the future in other words you bottle oils, disintegrate tomorrow lubricate the watch preferably after cleaning it of course and you have another five years of the watch. So the oil in the watch providing it bad environmental conditions do not occur to be safe there recommending five years. The lubrication companies are just putting dates on for quality control purposes and just to be safe.



Oh and then that magical 10+ years you mention you want to be careful about that. If you look at what the commercial watch companies do when their servicing watches they don't always do things the way we do they don't even necessarily follow their own servicing guides. For instance I know people work at Swatch group any issue with the pallet fork or escape wheel there both just replaced. Basically anything that could be an issue is replaced as part of servicing. It's conceivable for watch companies with a 10 year service interval that they may have decided that they don't care of your watch disintegrates because of just replace the components that are disintegrating your watch one forever but a lot of components will be replaced because they ran dry and they wear out. So just because a manufacturer says 10 years doesn't mean that were going to get by with 10 years indication is to be safe five years is a good service time. Especially if you're doing it for money because the customer will come back and bring you more money. Because the gaskets will probably disintegrate any way and the moisture will start leaking in and it's got a be very expensive after that and you have a very angry customer who probably blame you for all of this.

 

[karlmansson]

Recommended service intervals for watches serviced with modern, synthetic lubricants have gone up from about 5 years (before the advent of synthetic oils) to about 10 years after. I think part of the shelf life issue is so that the oil in the watch will be able to fall into that service interval. So oil you have in your shop may keep for 10 years but at the end of the shelf life, the oil you apply in a watch just before that will be 12 years old at the end of the service interval.

But yes, welcome to the thunder dome! Always a heated debate when it comes to lubricants. My best advice is to check the service sheets for the movement you are servicing. Modern lubricants are in some ways synthetic counterparts to older mineral oils. So Moebius 8000 is the older version of 9010. Goes for a lot of them. I would go synthetic every day of the week as they don’t resin form. Much less of a hassle for future watchmakers to clean out. Plus they last longer.

 

[gmorse]

Hi olooki,

So Moebius 8000 is the older version of 9010. Goes for a lot of them. I would go synthetic every day of the week as they don’t resin form. Much less of a hassle for future watchmakers to clean out. Plus they last longer.

Just to clarify, Moebius terms the 8000 range as 'classic' oils, and they're mineral and animal based lubricants, subject to relatively rapid degradation, whereas the 9000 series are fully synthetic and more desirable for the reasons mentioned by Karl. I guess Moebius still sells the 8000 because it's far cheaper than the synthetics which now form the basis of most of their products, and people will buy it because of that.

By the way, the Moebius 'Microgliss' series which includes D5 has been superseded by the 'Synt-HP' oils which are more stable and much less likely to migrate from where they are placed; the practical equivalent to D5 is Synt-HP 1300 (9104).

Regards,

Graham

 

[olooki]

Thanks to all who replied to my question. While my question was serious and snarky at the same time, your answers make sense. Maintenance periods overlapping with oil-in-bottle life have to add up! I appreciate the knowledge transfer.

 

[John Runciman]

I guess Moebius still sells the 8000 because it's far cheaper than the synthetics which now form the basis of most of their products, and people will buy it because of that.

By the way, the Moebius 'Microgliss' series which includes D5 has been superseded by the 'Synt-HP' oils which are more stable and much less likely to migrate from where they are placed; the practical equivalent to D5 is Synt-HP 1300 (9104).

What I find interesting with Moebius Is they still List quite a bit of natural oil is an entire section in the oil section for natural oils. I can't see that they would sell it because of the price. Then to open a can of worms there are some indications that natural oils are actually supposed to be better than synthetic oils other than for shelflife. So there has to be a reason why they're still listed and maybe it is price

oh and then there's the amusement with the HP oils versus the D5 for instance. The lubrication chart look at the bottom of the chart and you will see these peculiar words "The Synt-HP oils (9101, 9102, 9103, 9104) are preferentially in use for ruby bearings. For brass bearings, we recommend Microgliss D-4 or D-5". So I just find that one particular line very peculiar as to why it's on their chart. When it seems like the synthetic is supposed be better in every way except in this particular application?