History Which of these two watches do you prefer?

[miguel angel cladera]

I'm revising some articles I wrote about the AWC Model 1870 and the NWC BW Raymond. It is well known that the "Crescent Street" was the first North American watch to be advertised as the first watch designed like a "railroad watch". But it is also well known that the Pennsylvania Road purchased some watches to Elgin in 1869 and so announced in Harper's magazine that same year.

Was the 1870 model an "upgrade" to compete in the market with National's grade 69?

My thought is that they are two magnificent watches (although my weakness goes for the Raymond) that led the way to a standardization of North American railroad pocket watches. Woerd, Moseley and Bigelow, among others, really did a great job.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Bernhard J.]

My friend Miguel, so simple, get both!

 

[miguel angel cladera]

My friend Miguel, so simple, get both!

Yes, of course, both are in my small collection.

 

[Chris Radek]

I love the back setting feature of the Waltham.

 

[topspin]

On the assumption that they both wind, set, & run correctly, I'll take whichever one does a better job of standing up unaided on a table.

I would want to sort out some sort of chain for the Waltham - make it a bit harder to drop.

 

[Clint Geller]

The Waltham Model 1870 was not the first American watch to be advertised for railroad service, but I believe it was the first American watch supposedly designed expressly for railroad service, which makes it special. I believe it was also the only full plate watch model to be designed in the AWCo's Nashua Department. So I would prefer it, if I had to choose. A complete set of the different winding/setting arrangements for the Model 1870 would make for both an interesting and attainable collecting goal as well.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Both are in good working order and both have been in my collection for some time now. I simply think that the Elgin watch is more advanced, because of its construction and specifications, however the 1870 model is a myth in American watches. I also think that the engineers who designed them both worked together for a while and that they all knew what the market was going to need. I find this point very interesting and that is why I wanted to know your opinions. Clint please teach me, was the first watch advertised, then?

 

[klokwiz]

Sharp eye Chris. I have never seen a back set 18 size waltham. I see no reference to them either. does anyone know if this was a modification or extreme rarity?

Joe

 

[Chris Radek]

It's a factory feature. The post goes clear through the movement and a setting wheel on the post interfaces with the minute wheel under the dial. It has to be driven apart before the plates will separate for service, and then driven back on afterward. If I remember right, the setting wheel is steel to tolerate going through this process many times.

 

[Clint Geller]

Both are in good working order and both have been in my collection for some time now. I simply think that the Elgin watch is more advanced, because of its construction and specifications, however the 1870 model is a myth in American watches. I also think that the engineers who designed them both worked together for a while and that they all knew what the market was going to need. I find this point very interesting and that is why I wanted to know your opinions. Clint please teach me, was the first watch advertised, then?

Miguel, are you asking me what the first American watch advertised for railroad service was? This would be the Elgin B. W. Raymond Model 1, in an ad that appeared in 1868. However, at least one American railroad had ordered Model 1857 watches from the AWCo prior to this date. Dave Coatsworth wrote an NAWCC article about this history.

I was interested in your remark that the Elgin watch was more advanced, Miguel. Can you elaborate?

 

[Alan Walker]

I don’t prefer one over the other. Both were top of the line American watches suitable for railroad service.

 

[diveboy]

Your #184209 is not a Grade 69, its a Grade BW Raymond and that would be my preference but i'm a sucker for early National Watch Company products.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Miguel, are you asking me what the first American watch advertised for railroad service was? This would be the Elgin B. W. Raymond Model 1, in an ad that appeared in 1868. However, at least one American railroad had ordered Model 1857 watches from the AWCo prior to this date. Dave Coatsworth wrote an NAWCC article about this history.

I was interested in your remark that the Elgin watch was more advanced, Miguel. Can you elaborate?

Perhaps my statement may have been a bit "pilgrimish" but the Model Raymond 1 already incorporated many of the technical features that were brought together in the Model 1870. They share part of the very compact plate design, where they housed the barrel, the dust ring, the counterbalanced Swiss anchor and yet the model 1 incorporated its " quick train " beating at 18000 bph. While the 1870 model already incorporated a micrometer regulator in 1871, Elgin followed suit. As a user of both watches (I do not work in any railroad) the main advantage of the 1870 model is its adjustment on the back, avoiding exposing the dial as it is in the case of the Raymond 1870.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Your #184209 is not a Grade 69, its a Grade BW Raymond and that would be my preference but i'm a sucker for early National Watch Company products.

I know, if I am not mistaken, the grades did not start to be designated by numbers until 1875, I think...

 

[Nathan Moore]

Miguel, are you asking me what the first American watch advertised for railroad service was? This would be the Elgin B. W. Raymond Model 1, in an ad that appeared in 1868. However, at least one American railroad had ordered Model 1857 watches from the AWCo prior to this date. Dave Coatsworth wrote an NAWCC article about this history.

I was interested in your remark that the Elgin watch was more advanced, Miguel. Can you elaborate?

There are even earlier instances of American watches being advertised for railroad service. This advertisement was published by Robbins & Appleton in the March 6, 1858, issue of the American Railroad Journal, specifically stating, "made expressly for Railroad use."

 

[Clint Geller]

There are even earlier instances of American watches being advertised for railroad service. This advertisement was published by Robbins & Appleton in the March 6, 1858, issue of the American Railroad Journal, specifically stating, "made expressly for Railroad use."


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Thank you for this, Nathan. I stand corrected about the date of the earliest ad for American watches for the RR market. Of course, in 1858 AT&Co. was making only one model of watch, the so called "Model 1857," whose design was inherited from the defunct Boston Watch Co. Railroad companies may already have ordered some watches from AT&Co. But while one could claim that these particular watches, and only these watches were "made expressly for railroad service," their design was no different, and I doubt that they were "constructed and regulated" any differently than any other of AT&Co's watches of the same grade. How does one "regulate" a watch without a chronometer balance to heat and cold, anyway? If this interesting ad proves anything, it proves that Waltham advertisements cannot be taken at face value. This, of course, goes for their Model 1870 ads as well.

The Model 1870 used the same wheel train and straight line escapement as Waltham's KW16 and KW20 3/4 plate movements, and like them it was rear setting, as were contemporaneous English railroad watches. The Model 1870 was also Waltham's first full plate watch to feature a micrometer regulator. It also had a compensated bimetallic balance, a stopwork, a dust ring, and adjustable banking pins, but so did contemporaneous AT&Co Grade Model 1857's. Whatever else, if anything, that Waltham may have meant when they claimed the Model 1870 to have been designed for RR service is unclear.

I would argue that Miguel's suggestion that the advent of the Waltham Model 1870 was influenced by Elgin BWRs is almost undoubtedly correct. How could Waltham have failed to be aware of that important development, and how could they not have responded to it?

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Perhaps it's too risky to say, but is it possible that a new company like National debuted this great watch (the Raymond) because they enlisted the services of many of the engineers on the Waltham staff? And in response to this fact, the 1870 model was launched on the market and to be endowed with this railway status in terms of advertising?
That's my thought, more seeing that the technical characteristics of the two watches are very similar....

 

[Clint Geller]

Perhaps it's too risky to say, but is it possible that a new company like National debuted this great watch (the Raymond) because they enlisted the services of many of the engineers on the Waltham staff? And in response to this fact, the 1870 model was launched on the market and to be endowed with this railway status in terms of advertising?
That's my thought, more seeing that the technical characteristics of the two watches are very similar....

Well, former Waltham employees played an important role in launching Elgin. That is not in dispute. And as I had said, Waltham would have to have been very aware of Elgin's competitive threat. As for Waltham's Model 1870, the preceding decade saw an explosion in railroad expansion, and Waltham had been advertising to railroad men apparently since 1858, so whether it was Elgin's BWR in particular that motivated Waltham to advertise their Model 1870 as being designed expressly for RR service is hard to know. I think Waltham and Elgin both understood that railroad timekeepers were respected by the general public, not just railroad men, so it just made sense for them to pitch their workhorse full plate products to the railroad watch market.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I think the first American Railroad watches were actually those made by Barraud & Lunds for Bond to sell to the Vermont Railroad. Since they were made to the specification of Bond & Sons you could argue they were American watches manufactured in the UK.

 

[Clint Geller]

I think the first American Railroad watches were actually those made by Barraud & Lunds for Bond to sell to the Vermont Railroad. Since they were made to the specification of Bond & Sons you could argue they were American watches manufactured in the UK.
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Tom, I think we are getting tangled in the ambiguities of the phrase "American railroad watch"

It is clear to me that not everyone participating in this thread may share the exact same definition of what we are discussing. In particular, your post raises the question: Does a watch need to be of American manufacture to be considered an "American railroad watch"? I would say it does, but that's just my opinion. I see three basic ways to interpret the phrase "American railroad watch":

1. An American watch used, or otherwise associated with use on any railroad.
2. Any watch used, or otherwise associated with use on an American railroad.
3. An American watch used, or otherwise associated with use on an American railroad.

Syntax matters here. The Barraud & Lunds watches would satisfy definition 2, but neither definitions 1 or 3, Bond's "specifications" notwithstanding. I favor definition 3, as the others strike me as too broad and therefore less useful..

 

[thesnark17]

I agree that we need to clarify definitions at this point, and that definition 2 is overly broad. However, the Barraud & Lunds watches are definitely relevant to the discussion, since we are talking about the origins of the "American railroad watch".

The B&L watches (and others like them) definitely influenced American manufacturers by proving that there was a railroad market for precision watches. I am sure that all of the better-quality early Walthams were built with English competition in mind.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

The B&L watches address the "first" designation. There were no American watches of the quality needed for the service in 1855 when they were bought by the railroads for use on their trains. They also furnished the entire system including the regulator station clocks.

In a closely related venture they also installed distributed time systems with Lund's adjuster in the Boston area.

Once Waltham and later Elgin started producing quality watches B&L/Bond could no longer compete on price.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Creo que los primeros relojes American Railroad fueron en realidad los fabricados por Barraud & Lunds para que Bond los vendiera a Vermont Railroad. Dado que se fabricaron según las especificaciones de Bond & Sons, se podría argumentar que eran relojes estadounidenses fabricados en el Reino Unido.
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[Clint Geller]

The B&L watches address the "first" designation. There were no American watches of the quality needed for the service in 1855 when they were bought by the railroads for use on their trains. They also furnished the entire system including the regulator station clocks.

In a closely related venture they also installed distributed time systems with Lund's adjuster in the Boston area.

Once Waltham and later Elgin started producing quality watches B&L/Bond could no longer compete on price.

Hi Tom,

Would it not be far clearer to call the B&L watches "English watches made to order for the American railroad market"? But perhaps it would be useful to know how detailed Bond's specifications were. Can you provide a link?

Clint

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Tom,

Would it not be far clearer to call the B&L watches "English watches made to order for the American railroad market"? But perhaps it would be useful to know how detailed Bond's specifications were. Can you provide a link?

Clint

To me it would still seem more accurate: American railroad customers buying some good English watches.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

My intent was to point out that railway timekeeping in America started before American railroad watches. The organizer and first player in that field was Raymond Lee, Superintendent of the Boston & Providence Railroad. He expanded his effort to include several railroads with the assistance of Bond & Co. in Boston.

Dana Blackwell believed and I believe that was the beginning of the industry. As I said above, it was the idea of "first" that I was questioning. I do not want to derail this discussion. My interjection was one of those "do not forget" remarks.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

My intent was to point out that railway timekeeping in America started before American railroad watches. The organizer and first player in that field was Raymond Lee, Superintendent of the Boston & Providence Railroad. He expanded his effort to include several railroads with the assistance of Bond & Co. in Boston.

Dana Blackwell believed and I believe that was the beginning of the industry. As I said above, it was the idea of "first" that I was questioning. I do not want to derail this discussion. My interjection was one of those "do not forget" remarks.

You do not distort the discussion, on the contrary. I have read your work several times and I think it is excellent!

 

[Clint Geller]

My intent was to point out that railway timekeeping in America started before American railroad watches. The organizer and first player in that field was Raymond Lee, Superintendent of the Boston & Providence Railroad. He expanded his effort to include several railroads with the assistance of Bond & Co. in Boston.

Dana Blackwell believed and I believe that was the beginning of the industry. As I said above, it was the idea of "first" that I was questioning. I do not want to derail this discussion. My interjection was one of those "do not forget" remarks.

Your important point is noted, Tom.

 

[Mike M.]

The Waltham Model 1870 was not the first American watch to be advertised for railroad service, but I believe it was the first American watch supposedly designed expressly for railroad service, which makes it special. I believe it was also the only full plate watch model to be designed in the AWCo's Nashua Department. So I would prefer it, if I had to choose. A complete set of the different winding/setting arrangements for the Model 1870 would make for both an interesting and attainable collecting goal as well.

The pin set version (in a proper case) has eluded me for years.

 

[Clint Geller]

The pin set version (in a proper case) has eluded me for years.

Well, I said collecting all the Model 1870 W/S arrangements was an "attainable" goal, not necessarily an easy one. What fun would that be if it were too easy?

Hey, last month I just bought a 19 jewel Nashua-signed 20 Size movement, one of only four publically documented examples. I never expected to get to own one of those, and I've been collecting American watches for nearly 40 years.

 

[Clint Geller]

Here are pictures of a Barraud & Lund movement made for Wm. Bond & Son, in its original Thiery & Serex silver swingout case with simulated hallmarks. The dial and case have matching serial numbers. Both Wm.B&S and T&S were Boston establishments. The movement is a nicely finished, thirteen jewel timekeeper with fusee and chronometer balance with platinum timing screws. It's likely a better timekeeper than contemporaneous Boston Watch Co. products, but at least to my inexpert eyes, it otherwise looks to be a not atypical English export of the period. However, this watch does not have the "V.C.R.R." engraving, so it may not be one of the movements specifically ordered by Bond for sale to the VCRR.

The pix are compliments of my watchmaker, John Wilson.

 

[Alan Walker]

I would have to argue that American railroad timekeeping began in 1830 on the South Carolina road. It is known that this road determined that there was a need for uniform timekeeping and they purchased clocks which were installed at each station. They took their time from Charleston, SC. The conductors of all westbound train took their time at Charleston and informed each station agent of the correct time when their train arrived. It should be noted that in 1830, the South Carolina road was the longest railroad in the world, connecting Charleston with Hamburg 130 miles to the west. The South Carolina road was also the first railroad to introduce nighttime operations. The first headlight was nothing more than a bonfire set on a flat car that was pushed ahead of the locomotive.

 

[musicguy]

No need to reinvent the wheel. Kent has already done it.

Railroad Time Service

Railroad time service is the system within which railroaders involved in the operation of trains were ensured of having the correct time - Standard Time. This was because train movement was based upon time schedules and the actions of the railroaders

mb.nawcc.org

When Did Time Service Rules First Appear Wiki


Rob

 

[Mike M.]

Well, I said collecting all the Model 1870 W/S arrangements was an "attainable" goal, not necessarily an easy one. What fun would that be if it were too easy?

Hey, last month I just bought a 19 jewel Nashua-signed 20 Size movement, one of only four publically documented examples. I never expected to get to own one of those, and I've been collecting American watches for nearly 40 years.

Well, there ya go Clint. You have given me hope!

Congrats on the Nashua. I hope you post it. I would love to see it.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

I need your help again... As you have seen, the serial number of the Raymond model 1 is *184209*. This was produced in a block of 5000 units from No. 180001 to 18500. So far the databases match. Now come the discrepancies... in Mr. Jeff Sexton's database, he places the manufacture of this block in 1871, however in Mr. Nathan More's database the date is 1873. The website elginwatches.org (which is no longer active) also placed it in 1873.

Is it possible that the parts were manufactured in 1871 and did not leave the factory assembled until 1873?

Can any Elgin expert give me a solution?

 

[Clint Geller]

Well, there ya go Clint. You have given me hope!

Congrats on the Nashua. I hope you post it. I would love to see it.

Thanks, Mike. It's at my watchmaker being cleaned up. I will eventually show it.

 

[musicguy]

 

[miguel angel cladera]

I have tried to write something about the Raymond. I hope you like it my friends and thank you very much for your attention.

National American Co. B.W. Raymond Model 1

This article examines and contextualizes a National American Co. B.W. Raymond Model 1 pocket watch.

www.safonagastrocrono.club