When you do it right and it still goes wrong

[Walt Wallgren]

We've probably all run into it before, I think there was even a thread on it a few weeks ago. The minute hand is not pointing exactly at the 6 and 12 when the strike occurs. What to do? Take a square file tang or other square tool, insert it through the square hole in the minute hand bushing. Hold the minute hand at the center so you don't put too much pressure on the hand so it bends and slowly turn the bushing and retest until the strike happens at the correct position. Simple, right? Not always.

What do you do when the hand doesn't turn and a little pressure breaks it off anyway? Is there any way to put the 120 year-old hand back together? It is a clean break. Dare I use the dreaded word? I know, i'll spell it so the kiddies won't know what I'm saying.......S-O-L-D-E-R there I said it.

But seriously, this is what I have, are there any suggestions?

Thanks,
Walt

 

[R&A]

The only way to fix this is with solder. Put a straight piece of round stock on the back of the pin and solder it to the hand. Make the pin small enough that you can't see it. Then from there on you must be careful with the hand.

H/C

 

[Jim_Miller]

I've used a product called JB Weld ( with a pin to reinforce the hand ). I would suggest fitting the square to the movement prior to making the repair.

 

[R. Croswell]

It may be the photo or my eyes but it looks like the part that didn't break is bent. Before making the repair I suggest you address the frozen bushing issue. I feel that solder is ok in this application as long as you do a neat job and use a steel wire or flat strip behind the hand as was suggested. The center bushing looks a little chewed up so you could end up just replacing it.

JB-Weld is great stuff to and would probably work but I believe for a small repair like this I would use solder.

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Thanks, HC, JM, RC

I totally agree with adjusting the hand before making the repair but I still can't get the bushing to move. Any ideas on that issue? I certainly don't want to fix the hand and then break it again.

Walt

 

[shutterbug]

Did they use hand bushings 120 years ago? I'm wondering if the hand is modern, and could just be replaced. Timesavers #20411.

 

[R. Croswell]

You might try penetrating oil and applying a little heat but be careful not to heat it too hot or the color will be affected. Give the oil time to work and keep trying to turn the bushing in both directions until it gives up. If you can support the hand over a hole in a metal block about then size of the bushing you might be able to tap the ferreled side with a blunt punch and loosen it a little but be careful or you will close the square hole. In the end, you might just drill or ream out the old bushing and turn a new one if you have a lathe. Someone else may have discovered a trick that works here. Maybe Dave is watching this thread, not much he can't solve!

RC

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Walt-

There are many ways to repair a hand which has been broken this way. The method I prefer, but which takes quite a bit of work, is as follows...

-Knock out the brass hand collet.

-File a notch in the rim of the remnant at the spot where the minute hand broke off. The notch should be as deep as the hand is wide and the butt of the hand should fit tightly into the notch.

-Use a hard bearing silver solder (15% silver) to attach the pieces. Silver solder melts at a pretty high temperature and the two pieces will need to be red hot for the solder to flow. You will need to use the correct flux as the low-temp flux won't work. (This is the most difficult step since the hand needs to be perfectly aligned.)

-File off the excess solder and smooth/blend it seamlessly into the hand.

-The steel will lose its blue color in the area of the repair but, if the area is small, a perma-marker (Sharpie) can be used to hide the area.

-Reinstall the hand collet, rotate to the proper release point, then tighten.

The reason the hand collet is removed for this process is because the high temperature needed to melt the solder will soften the brass.

And hard bearing silver solder is recommended due to the high torque on the minute hand during setting.

Good luck with it!

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Did they use hand bushings 120 years ago? I'm wondering if the hand is modern, and could just be replaced. Timesavers #20411.

Hi Shutterbug,

I saw the hands you are referring to as well, but almost missed them. They do look like almost an exact match and I began to wonder about what you said regarding modern. I know of 2 movements from 2 different sellers by the same manufacturer as my clock at auction right now and, when I checked, the hands in those listings look identical to what I am holding in my hand. So yes, i believe mine are original. I will order a pair, or maybe 2, "just in case."

Thanks for the ideas,
Walt

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Thanks, RC,

I know I have some penetrating oil around here somewhere on my cluttered bench, Oh wait, that's another thread. I tried heating it a little already but maybe a little more heat is in order

Thanks again,
Walt

 

[doug sinclair]

Laser weld it.

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Hey Walt-

There are many ways to repair a hand which has been broken this way. The method I prefer, but which takes quite a bit of work, is as follows...

-Knock out the brass hand collet.

-File a notch in the rim of the remnant at the spot where the minute hand broke off. The notch should be as deep as the hand is wide and the butt of the hand should fit tightly into the notch.

-Use a hard bearing silver solder (15% silver) to attach the pieces. Silver solder melts at a pretty high temperature and the two pieces will need to be red hot for the solder to flow. You will need to use the correct flux as the low-temp flux won't work. (This is the most difficult step since the hand needs to be perfectly aligned.)

-File off the excess solder and smooth/blend it seamlessly into the hand.

-The steel will lose its blue color in the area of the repair but, if the area is small, a perma-marker (Sharpie) can be used to hide the area.

-Reinstall the hand collet, rotate to the proper release point, then tighten.

The reason the hand collet is removed for this process is because the high temperature needed to melt the solder will soften the brass.

And hard bearing silver solder is recommended due to the high torque on the minute hand during setting.

Good luck with it!

Hi David,

This hand is from my Schnekenburger. If you recall, we were talking about a movement that needed an anchor/crutch assembly the other day. The last step in putting my movement back in the case and "gotcha."

I am no stranger to silver solder, although I don't know what % the stuff I have is. I know the silver solder I have was originally used on stainless and I have used it on silver jewelry and other things. Should that be good enough here or should I look for something specifically at 15%?

The only part of your procedure that I'm not sure I understand is filing the notch. Reading it again, it looks like I file a "square" notch in the round remnant so that I can embed the broken piece where it broke off. Is that about correct?

Thanks,
Walt

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Laser weld it.

Thanks, Doug.

 

[LaBounty]

Hi David,

This hand is from my Schnekenburger. If you recall, we were talking about a movement that needed an anchor/crutch assembly the other day. The last step in putting my movement back in the case and "gotcha."

I am no stranger to silver solder, although I don't know what % the stuff I have is. I know the silver solder I have was originally used on stainless and I have used it on silver jewelry and other things. Should that be good enough here or should I look for something specifically at 15%?

The only part of your procedure that I'm not sure I understand is filing the notch. Reading it again, it looks like I file a "square" notch in the round remnant so that I can embed the broken piece where it broke off. Is that about correct?

Thanks,
Walt

Hey Walt-

Yep! I remember our conversation and have been in the same position many times. That last step can be pretty big .

I looked at my stick of silver solder and the percentage is stamped in several places on the rod. If you have some silver solder, I'm sure it will work just fine and you don't need to go buy 15% just for this.

And yes, the notch is as you describe but it doesn't need to be square. I make the notch fit the butt of the hand rather than the hand fit the notch. Unlike replacing a wheel tooth, the solder is what gives the joint strength. So, the notch doesn't need to be dove-tailed. Just remember, you will lose some length on the minute hand so you want the notch to be as small as possible.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

We've probably all run into it before, I think there was even a thread on it a few weeks ago. The minute hand is not pointing exactly at the 6 and 12 when the strike occurs. What to do? Take a square file tang or other square tool, insert it through the square hole in the minute hand bushing. Hold the minute hand at the center so you don't put too much pressure on the hand so it bends and slowly turn the bushing and retest until the strike happens at the correct position. Simple, right? Not always.

What do you do when the hand doesn't turn and a little pressure breaks it off anyway? Is there any way to put the 120 year-old hand back together? It is a clean break. Dare I use the dreaded word? I know, i'll spell it so the kiddies won't know what I'm saying.......S-O-L-D-E-R there I said it.

But seriously, this is what I have, are there any suggestions?

Thanks,
Walt

Walt
When repositioning square hole bushings I install the hand in a small lathe three jaw chuck. The base of the hand against one of the jaws will prevent the hand from turning without damage. (Photo on request)

In regard to Repair of this steel hand.

It is my personal belief that all parts worth repairing should be returned to original condition. It has also been my personal experience that this type repair generally requires less effort and many time less skill than common cobble jobs.
Unfortunately, when chemicals and soft solder are almost always suggested on this and other boards, more sound repairs are seldom if ever explored/ suggested/considered.
A soft solder or chemical compound repair on a hand will always be visible with barely enough strength since this appears to be a minute hand and possibly used for setting the time. Not to mention what it will do to ones reputation.

Some repair options as follows

(1) A strip of main spring can be placed on the bottom of the hand and pieces spot welded together. Dental spot welders for this kind of work are sometimes available at reasonable prices and can be used for many kinds of small repairs. (Example first attached photo). Since this repair consists of all metal, the hand can be heated and all parts blued per original. While far more professional than soft solder it still has to be considered a cobble job.

(2) The two pieces can be high temp silver soldered , but the repair will always be visible.

(3) The most professional way to repair this hand will be to weld it and dress invisible. From this point it can be heated and reblued invisible with original strength. While there are several methods of welding, I personally prefer gas because of control and selection of welding rod material, but other methods such as laser that was suggested by Doug will also work. Again personally I first machine one end of a welding rod down to about .020" as shown in the second photo. I then only use Oxygen Acetylene for a small high temp controllable flame as shown in the third attached photo.

If one does not have the equipment or skill to do this work, there are many goldsmiths that have equipment to weld small steel items.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Thanks, Jerry,

It make good sense to restore thing to as original condition as possible.

Walt

 

[doug sinclair]

In case anyone though I was not serious when I suggested laser welding the hand, guess again! A friend was showing me the strength of a laser weld. He took two 2" steel screws and spot welded the heads together, head to head, in five tiny joints. Then he handed me the screws and two pair of pliers to try to break the screws apart. I bent the screws into a "U" shape, and the welds held! Silver soldering will take the temper out of the hands, and there are considerations regarding cleaning and re-bluing. Laser weld is the way to go in my view. No flux, no brazing material. No clean up, and no loss of temper.

 

[shutterbug]

In case anyone though I was not serious when I suggested laser welding the hand, guess again! A friend was showing me the strength of a laser weld. He took two 2" steel screws and spot welded the heads together, head to head, in five tiny joints. Then he handed me the screws and two pair of pliers to try to break the screws apart. I bent the screws into a "U" shape, and the welds held! Silver soldering will take the temper out of the hands, and there are considerations regarding cleaning and re-bluing. Laser weld is the way to go in my view. No flux, no brazing material. No clean up, and no loss of temper.

I guess you'd have to know where to take it, since those things are several $K. I'm not sure how many jewelers might have one, but that's probably the best option for this type of repair.

 

[Walt Wallgren]

I guess you'd have to know where to take it, since those things are several $K. I'm not sure how many jewelers might have one, but that's probably the best option for this type of repair.

I'm sure it would do a great job. I just dont have a source.

Thanks,
Walt

 

[doug sinclair]

A lot of goldsmiths use them, as well as dispensing opticians who repair glasses. And I am certain a lot of welders use them, as well. Of course, the option exists of ordering a matching pair of replacement hands.

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Thanks, Doug,

A lot of conflicting thoughts happening. I want to keep it original. I want it done "right." I want it finished today. It's already 1:30 in the afternoon. The hands from Timesavers are almost identical. Blah, Blah, Blah.

Walt

 

[David S]

Walt why don't you just try and repair it? You know that you can get an almost exact replacement, so go for it. What did our skilled clockmakers do way back when, before spot welders, laser welding, timesavers, merritts, etc.? Perhaps they got out the piercing saw and made a new one.. I don't know. Everytime you attempt something like this you learn something and it improves your skills... assuming of course that is what you would like to do..

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Absolutely Right, David, I think i will.

 

[erngrover]

There are ways to minimize this disaster.
1. soak the hand bushing in a 50/50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid overnight
2. dry the hands thoroughly, apply some indirect heat (heat gun, no open flame)
3. mount the hand bushing in a smooth jaw hand vise (see picture) or smooth jaw Panavise (see picture)
4. the objective is to loosen up the bushing sufficiently enough in order to turn it safely without damage.

I've not yet sacrificed a hand vise (see picture), grinding away the mid portion so that the jaws clamp on the hand just beyond the bushing. Generally the Panavise has always been enough, having subjected the hand bushing to penetrating fluid and heat before attempting to turn the bushing.

Go slow.

Ern Grover, Harrisonburg, VA

We've probably all run into it before, I think there was even a thread on it a few weeks ago. The minute hand is not pointing exactly at the 6 and 12 when the strike occurs. What to do? Take a square file tang or other square tool, insert it through the square hole in the minute hand bushing. Hold the minute hand at the center so you don't put too much pressure on the hand so it bends and slowly turn the bushing and retest until the strike happens at the correct position. Simple, right? Not always.

What do you do when the hand doesn't turn and a little pressure breaks it off anyway? Is there any way to put the 120 year-old hand back together? It is a clean break. Dare I use the dreaded word? I know, i'll spell it so the kiddies won't know what I'm saying.......S-O-L-D-E-R there I said it.

But seriously, this is what I have, are there any suggestions?

Thanks,
Walt

 

[Jay Fortner]

Walt
When repositioning square hole bushings I install the hand in a small lathe three jaw chuck. The base of the hand against one of the jaws will prevent the hand from turning without damage. (Photo on request)

In regard to Repair of this steel hand.

It is my personal belief that all parts worth repairing should be returned to original condition. It has also been my personal experience that this type repair generally requires less effort and many time less skill than common cobble jobs.
Unfortunately, when chemicals and soft solder are almost always suggested on this and other boards, more sound repairs are seldom if ever explored/ suggested/considered.
A soft solder or chemical compound repair on a hand will always be visible with barely enough strength since this appears to be a minute hand and possibly used for setting the time. Not to mention what it will do to ones reputation.

Some repair options as follows

(1) A strip of main spring can be placed on the bottom of the hand and pieces spot welded together. Dental spot welders for this kind of work are sometimes available at reasonable prices and can be used for many kinds of small repairs. (Example first attached photo). Since this repair consists of all metal, the hand can be heated and all parts blued per original. While far more professional than soft solder it still has to be considered a cobble job.

(2) The two pieces can be high temp silver soldered , but the repair will always be visible.

(3) The most professional way to repair this hand will be to weld it and dress invisible. From this point it can be heated and reblued invisible with original strength. While there are several methods of welding, I personally prefer gas because of control and selection of welding rod material, but other methods such as laser that was suggested by Doug will also work. Again personally I first machine one end of a welding rod down to about .020" as shown in the second photo. I then only use Oxygen Acetylene for a small high temp controllable flame as shown in the third attached photo.

If one does not have the equipment or skill to do this work, there are many goldsmiths that have equipment to weld small steel items.

Jerry Kieffer

I'm with Jerry on this one,jewelers torch.That little spot welder was pretty cool but,uhg,me like fire. A good source for small welding rod .023" is welding wire.
I'm quite sure that any method you choose is going to require having to reblue the hand. A small toaster oven that will go to 600deg. is great for blueing steel parts,screws and such.

 

[al_taka]

Thanks David LaBounty for the notched silver solder approach, haven't tried that one yet. I've been laminating mainspring stock underneath the break.

Thanks Jerry for the welding idea, I've have a miller tig syncrowave 180sd with hf start. I never thought of using it on such small pieces.
I think it can be turned down low enough for this job.
Cabin Fever Expo this year?

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Thanks, Ern, Jay, Al for your suggestions and comments. I know a lot more now than when I started!

Walt