James J Nicholson
NAWCC Member
I am interested in obtaining a keywind that is both interesting and reasonably affordable. Any suggestions fellow collectors?
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What keywind american pocket watch would you recommend to a new collector?
- Thread starter James J Nicholson
- Start date
richiec
NAWCC Member
18 size Walthams are fairly common in models 1857, 1883, etc, parts are available for broken ones though picking up a good one should not be difficult, recommend getting a working example in a case.
An early Elgin like an 18s BW Raymond is a good watch.
There's so many.
Add my vote for the B.W. Raymond, even though I still don't have one! Can't go wrong with one of those.
Really any 15 jewel Elgin keywinder is a good place to start, but the Raymond is the top of the list.
Add my vote for the B.W. Raymond, even though I still don't have one! Can't go wrong with one of those.
Really any 15 jewel Elgin keywinder is a good place to start, but the Raymond is the top of the list.
I like both John and richiec's suggestions above. I think with
the Elgins(as well as the early ones National Watch Co.) I would go with the Gentlemans watch G. M. Wheeler
or the RR watch the B.W. Raymond both are fine watches. Both
can be repaired easily with parts available. Both can be identified easily their name
is on the movement.
With Waltham(American Watch Co) you can
look for an Appleton Tracy or Wm. Ellery or P.S. Bartlett or Crescent Street.
You can always ask behind the scenes here(in a PM) for an opinion on
any watch you are thinking about and get someone's feelings about it here(by PM).
Just share with one of us the auction link if you want. As above all these
names can bee seen right on the movement.
Read a little about each....just do a forum search here.
Good luck and I do agree start with a running watch that is in a case.
Rob
the Elgins(as well as the early ones National Watch Co.) I would go with the Gentlemans watch G. M. Wheeler
or the RR watch the B.W. Raymond both are fine watches. Both
can be repaired easily with parts available. Both can be identified easily their name
is on the movement.
With Waltham(American Watch Co) you can
look for an Appleton Tracy or Wm. Ellery or P.S. Bartlett or Crescent Street.
You can always ask behind the scenes here(in a PM) for an opinion on
any watch you are thinking about and get someone's feelings about it here(by PM).
Just share with one of us the auction link if you want. As above all these
names can bee seen right on the movement.
Read a little about each....just do a forum search here.
Good luck and I do agree start with a running watch that is in a case.
Rob
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Kevin W.
NAWCC Member
There are some nice Swiss key winds around, i have several. As well as a Elgin and a Waltham key wind.
If you are inclined to collect American watches, a humble 7 jewel William Ellery grade Waltham Model 1857 with a serial number below about 150,000 in an original silver case would be an excellent, reasonably affordable choice. It has sufficient historical importance as the quintessential Civil War “soldier’s watch” that you would probably never “outgrow” it as you advance in the hobby. That watch reversed the American Watch Company’s fortunes and started it on its meteoric rise.
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- Aug 25, 2000
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I would recommend starting with any 18s American make (Elgin, Waltham, Rockford, Hampden, Illinois, even (my favorite) Aurora). One thing to keep in mind is to make sure it's a pure key wind (not a transition style).
Look for one in a silver case. Also, I would start with open-face cases as they generally have fewer problems than hunting cases. Try to find one which has no extra case screw marks and that has NOT been polished to a super bright shiny look. Look for one which still has decent detail to the engraving (if such is present).
There are lots of Elgins and Walthams to choose from and there are resources to indicate approx. production figures for the various grades. Look for something with a relatively low production. Most of the key wind grades for the smaller makers (Columbus, Rockford, Aurora, etc.) have production figures that are usually way less than for most Elgin and Waltham grades, so if you find one of theirs it's going to be (generally) less common.
Look for something running with good motion but don't get too caught up with timekeeping.
Checks the screws, hands, dials and other parts to see if they match or look correct.
Scores of 18s American key winders in silver cases appear everyday on that popular auction site. Find a few that look interesting and send PMs to people you know to ask their opinions.
Look for one in a silver case. Also, I would start with open-face cases as they generally have fewer problems than hunting cases. Try to find one which has no extra case screw marks and that has NOT been polished to a super bright shiny look. Look for one which still has decent detail to the engraving (if such is present).
There are lots of Elgins and Walthams to choose from and there are resources to indicate approx. production figures for the various grades. Look for something with a relatively low production. Most of the key wind grades for the smaller makers (Columbus, Rockford, Aurora, etc.) have production figures that are usually way less than for most Elgin and Waltham grades, so if you find one of theirs it's going to be (generally) less common.
Look for something running with good motion but don't get too caught up with timekeeping.
Checks the screws, hands, dials and other parts to see if they match or look correct.
Scores of 18s American key winders in silver cases appear everyday on that popular auction site. Find a few that look interesting and send PMs to people you know to ask their opinions.
Rob P.
Registered User
I will add my voice to the rest and say that I believe almost any Elgin or Waltham would be a good choice for a novice collector. One area in which I diverge from what has already been said is that I believe that going for a watch with a higher jewel count is a "better" decision.
KW's are strange beasts. They aren't easy to wind or set compared to keyless movements and having to keep that little key dangling on the chain or else you're going to lose it is a PITA sometimes. Given that, and the fact that the novelty of "it winds with this little key" wears off fairly quickly, a new collector may decide that a KW isn't really "da bomb" or "right for them". Higher jewel count movements in good cases have a larger potential buyer base and will return more of the value upon resale faster than the lower jewel count movements will.
So, yes, the Waltham Model 1857 is a good choice. They were made anywhere from 1857 until around 1900 and the later models are probably in better shape than the earlier models due to not having been run as hard or neglected as much for as many years.
From Elgin, the BW Raymond would be the best known KW from that maker but the HH Taylor doesn't play second fiddle to it. The GM Wheeler being only 13 jewels to the BWR and HHT's 15 jewels doesn't make it a slouch either. Any of the 3 would be a good choice to begin with but I wouldn't go for any of the lower grades with only 11 or 7 jewels to start with.
Whatever watch you decide on, the case is also and important component. Open face is easier and less prone to abuse and/or damage. Coin silver or Sterling will wear faster than the nickle based "silver-ine/oid/ore" cases and silver hunters are often severely dented with bad cover hinges. However, good examples of silver hunters are out there, just pricey.
Get one that runs and take it to someone to have serviced before you wear it. Parts for the Elgins are more readily available than the Waltham but there are many many parts still out there for either of them.
Don't forget to use a chain that's heavy enough to not break if you accidentally drop the watch. Also, the watch goes into the pocket FIRST, then you attach the chain. That way you aren't juggling the watch while fiddling with the chain attachment. The only exception for this are the all leather keepers - these require you to hold the watch while you put the leather end around your belt loop then slip the watch goes through a long slit in the leather to fasten them. But, in general, watch into your pocket first, then fasten the chain.
KW's are strange beasts. They aren't easy to wind or set compared to keyless movements and having to keep that little key dangling on the chain or else you're going to lose it is a PITA sometimes. Given that, and the fact that the novelty of "it winds with this little key" wears off fairly quickly, a new collector may decide that a KW isn't really "da bomb" or "right for them". Higher jewel count movements in good cases have a larger potential buyer base and will return more of the value upon resale faster than the lower jewel count movements will.
So, yes, the Waltham Model 1857 is a good choice. They were made anywhere from 1857 until around 1900 and the later models are probably in better shape than the earlier models due to not having been run as hard or neglected as much for as many years.
From Elgin, the BW Raymond would be the best known KW from that maker but the HH Taylor doesn't play second fiddle to it. The GM Wheeler being only 13 jewels to the BWR and HHT's 15 jewels doesn't make it a slouch either. Any of the 3 would be a good choice to begin with but I wouldn't go for any of the lower grades with only 11 or 7 jewels to start with.
Whatever watch you decide on, the case is also and important component. Open face is easier and less prone to abuse and/or damage. Coin silver or Sterling will wear faster than the nickle based "silver-ine/oid/ore" cases and silver hunters are often severely dented with bad cover hinges. However, good examples of silver hunters are out there, just pricey.
Get one that runs and take it to someone to have serviced before you wear it. Parts for the Elgins are more readily available than the Waltham but there are many many parts still out there for either of them.
Don't forget to use a chain that's heavy enough to not break if you accidentally drop the watch. Also, the watch goes into the pocket FIRST, then you attach the chain. That way you aren't juggling the watch while fiddling with the chain attachment. The only exception for this are the all leather keepers - these require you to hold the watch while you put the leather end around your belt loop then slip the watch goes through a long slit in the leather to fasten them. But, in general, watch into your pocket first, then fasten the chain.
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I like Keith R's Idea when it comes to setting the time on a Key wind
(I hope it was Keith R who actually said this) He waits till the time on the watch is the
same as the "real" time then he winds and starts the watch. Thus not needing
to use the key to set the time from the front. I personally do not enjoy setting
the time on these with the key and you can also possibly damage the dial
if you are not careful and you slip. All my Key winds are functional but
I have never used one as a carry watch. I may have carried one to regulate it
and see how if functions, but never as an everyday watch.
I am more of a pendant wind collector but the key winds are
really nice too.
Rob
(I hope it was Keith R who actually said this) He waits till the time on the watch is the
same as the "real" time then he winds and starts the watch. Thus not needing
to use the key to set the time from the front. I personally do not enjoy setting
the time on these with the key and you can also possibly damage the dial
if you are not careful and you slip. All my Key winds are functional but
I have never used one as a carry watch. I may have carried one to regulate it
and see how if functions, but never as an everyday watch.
I am more of a pendant wind collector but the key winds are
really nice too.
Rob
Les harland
Registered User
You might come across a Waltham in a British Sterling Silver case, usually a Dennison
That is quite normal, the movements were shipped to the UK and cased thre
It was a way of avoiding UK import duty
That is quite normal, the movements were shipped to the UK and cased thre
It was a way of avoiding UK import duty
Ethan Lipsig
Gold Member
Setting the time on a keywind watch is a pain unless it sets from the back. Since you appear to be a newcomer to keywinds, James, I strongly recommend you limit yourself to watches that set from the back. Any such watch will have two posts on the back, one for winding and one for setting. Some American keywinds, at least in the higher grades, were back-set from very early on, as shown in the photos below
18k Elgin Frances Rubie, circa 1868
18k Elgin Grade 29 Lady Elgin, circa 1870
18k Waltham Appleton Tracy Model 1860 Vibrator, circa 1865
18k Waltham Appleton Tracy Model 1865, circa 1869
I am not a keywind lover. I don't know how many U.S. keywinds were set from the back. The four watches shown above are the only U.S. keywinds presently in my collection. I used to have three other Elgin keywinds; all were front-set:
- an Elgin Grade 69 B.W. Raymond, circa 1867
- an Elgin Grade 62, H.Z. Culver, circa 1868
- an Elgin Grade 57 G.M. Wheeler, circa 1873
topspin
Registered User
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I think it largely depends on what you are intending to collect and why you are collecting. We all collect different things, in different ways, for different reasons.
In the absence of that information, I will just suggest a Waltham 18s (probably a model 1877 or 1883) and definitely a Private Label - whatever catches your eye, whatever looks interesting to you.
If your end-goal is a running watch then (as others have said) you should aim for a piece which has recently been serviced (unless either you are intending to service/fix it yourself or you know a watchmaker whose work is within your budget.)
Keith R...
NAWCC Member
Rob is correct...........98% of my collections are key winds, American and
European. Many of my English watches have gold hands and using a key
to set the time from the front can cause the minute and hour hands to
hang up (bends them).
Try a United States Watch Co. 15j. I have since replaced missing key guard
screw.
Keith R...
European. Many of my English watches have gold hands and using a key
to set the time from the front can cause the minute and hour hands to
hang up (bends them).
Try a United States Watch Co. 15j. I have since replaced missing key guard
screw.
Keith R...
- Aug 25, 2000
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Here are some pics that were handy of a couple of key winders.
The first is an Elgin private label. It has the cut-out (fenestrated) balance bridge. Elgins with this feature aren't rare but they are certainly way less common than a B. W. Raymond. This one is in a G. W. Ladd hunting case. I don't remember exactly what I paid for it but it wasn't much different than a decent named grade Elgin would cost.
Below is a private label Aurora key winder. Not one of the rare Auroras but still neat with the monogrammed dial etc. Generally, Aurora key winders sell in the same range as many Elgins, Walthams, Hampdens, etc. But Elgin and Waltham made millions, while only about 10,000 Aurora key winders in all grades were made.
Just some ideas. What floats your boat is what floats your boat.
The first is an Elgin private label. It has the cut-out (fenestrated) balance bridge. Elgins with this feature aren't rare but they are certainly way less common than a B. W. Raymond. This one is in a G. W. Ladd hunting case. I don't remember exactly what I paid for it but it wasn't much different than a decent named grade Elgin would cost.
Below is a private label Aurora key winder. Not one of the rare Auroras but still neat with the monogrammed dial etc. Generally, Aurora key winders sell in the same range as many Elgins, Walthams, Hampdens, etc. But Elgin and Waltham made millions, while only about 10,000 Aurora key winders in all grades were made.
Just some ideas. What floats your boat is what floats your boat.
GeneJockey
NAWCC Member
My suggestion would be a National (Elgin) GM Wheeler with a serial number <250,000.
Yes, BW Raymonds were Elgin's top-of-the-line, but that also means they've been more desirable for a long time, which means they're more likely to have been 'worked on' by amateurs and dealers trying to just get them running well enough to sell. Culvers and Taylors are nice, but command higher prices because they're "railroad grade". Below Wheelers, you're talking only 7 jewels, or solid balance, or both. Wheelers have a nice, attractive movement with large jewels. Make sure the gilding on the one you get is bright, and the screws are all deep blue and domed. And all there! The case screw should be a half-head screw, also blued, also domed. AND the movement should be solidly in the case, with the pendant at 3 or 12. If it's any other place, the locator pin at 11:00 is probably broker.
Wheelers are an 11 jewel watch, slow beat, with compensating balance. They're a nice, reliable watch, and I think there are probably more of them than any of the other 'name' grades. I'd try for a coin silver open face case, nothing too big - 3 oz is plenty big! - because a hunter case will cost you more and be more likely to need work. Get one in good running condition - one that's actually running, not "ticks" or "tries to run", but one that keeps good time. Unless you can guarantee that it's been serviced, expect to pay another $150 to get it serviced.
Get a good quality, solidly build silver chain to go with it, and never carry it without the chain solidly attached to a belt loop or such.
Yes, BW Raymonds were Elgin's top-of-the-line, but that also means they've been more desirable for a long time, which means they're more likely to have been 'worked on' by amateurs and dealers trying to just get them running well enough to sell. Culvers and Taylors are nice, but command higher prices because they're "railroad grade". Below Wheelers, you're talking only 7 jewels, or solid balance, or both. Wheelers have a nice, attractive movement with large jewels. Make sure the gilding on the one you get is bright, and the screws are all deep blue and domed. And all there! The case screw should be a half-head screw, also blued, also domed. AND the movement should be solidly in the case, with the pendant at 3 or 12. If it's any other place, the locator pin at 11:00 is probably broker.
Wheelers are an 11 jewel watch, slow beat, with compensating balance. They're a nice, reliable watch, and I think there are probably more of them than any of the other 'name' grades. I'd try for a coin silver open face case, nothing too big - 3 oz is plenty big! - because a hunter case will cost you more and be more likely to need work. Get one in good running condition - one that's actually running, not "ticks" or "tries to run", but one that keeps good time. Unless you can guarantee that it's been serviced, expect to pay another $150 to get it serviced.
Get a good quality, solidly build silver chain to go with it, and never carry it without the chain solidly attached to a belt loop or such.
Les harland
Registered User
If you have not decided that you are going to have an American watch it might be worth looking a British and European watches as well , seeing what turns up and taking things from there
Half the fun with this interest is rooting out watches and information about them
Good Luck
Half the fun with this interest is rooting out watches and information about them
Good Luck
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Keith R...
NAWCC Member
Les is spot on!
I'm half Going Barrel and half Fusee collector................but my needle is currently
stuck on, the early Fusee.
Keith R...
I'm half Going Barrel and half Fusee collector................but my needle is currently
stuck on, the early Fusee.
Keith R...
I guess your first question has been answered(keywind that is interesting) .
It seems that most people above are recommending a Named grade Key wind.
Whether it's Elgin, Waltham, Illinois, Howard, Aurora, Hampden, United States Watch Co.
etc etc
The second part of your question(and reasonably affordable)
depends on your finances and what you are willing to spend.
I consider myself a very lucky buyer over the years because so many nice watches have
just fallen into my pocket for great prices. I would choose the ones you like
and then see if you can afford them or they are in your price range.
Another resource that's not mentioned here is
If you can get to a NAWCC Regional or National Mart you would have your pick of nice key wind watches.
There you can actually pick one up and look at it closely and ask the seller
questions that they can answer directly to you. Buying a watch on Ebay is
nothing like buying one in person. Holding it in your hand before you buy it
is quite nice. Plus you can look at many in one place.
Rob
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Les harland
Registered User
The Lancashire Watch Company 1889-1911 made Keywind English Lever watches with going barrels instead of fusees
That sounds like a horological version of a Motaur, Keith.
Perhaps a Motaur BarrelThat sounds like a horological version of a Motaur, Keith.
Les harland
Registered User
Looking at a Lancashire Watch Co movement and a "normal" English Lever with Fusee watch I think the company simply replaced the fusee with a going barrel and idler gear leaving all other parts the same
It made a modern watch which wound the correct (anti clockwise) way
I should point ou that non fusee watches wind clockwise
Sorry if I am going too far away from the original post
It made a modern watch which wound the correct (anti clockwise) way
I should point ou that non fusee watches wind clockwise
Sorry if I am going too far away from the original post
Keith R...
NAWCC Member
Les, Tom M. or Graham may correct me, but they had reversing pinion.
My friend John Matthews has an 1811 Going barrel on our European
board.
Keith R...
My friend John Matthews has an 1811 Going barrel on our European
board.
Keith R...
(said in a very nice way) remember what the original topic is here.
Rob
Rob
gmorse
NAWCC Member
Hi Keith,
I think Les' description of this piece as an 'idler gear' is pretty close to the mark. Another name for this is a 'dummy fusee', even though the LWC versions were often marked with the words 'reversing pinion' on the top plate, which can lead to confusion with those, (mostly American), watches which have a 'safety pinion' on the centre arbor, a device with a very different purpose. Whereas the latter was intended to prevent damage in the event of a broken spring, the former was to prevent damage from the owner winding it the wrong way!
Now we can follow Rob's gentle hint and return to the OP's request . . .
Regards,
Graham
I think Les' description of this piece as an 'idler gear' is pretty close to the mark. Another name for this is a 'dummy fusee', even though the LWC versions were often marked with the words 'reversing pinion' on the top plate, which can lead to confusion with those, (mostly American), watches which have a 'safety pinion' on the centre arbor, a device with a very different purpose. Whereas the latter was intended to prevent damage in the event of a broken spring, the former was to prevent damage from the owner winding it the wrong way!
Now we can follow Rob's gentle hint and return to the OP's request . . .
Regards,
Graham
Keith R...
NAWCC Member
I'd say a 15J US Watch Co. Marion, NJ.
Keith R...
Keith R...
I have always really liked the butterfly shape cut out on the
the Marion's. There are a lot of key winds to choose from.
Rob
the Marion's. There are a lot of key winds to choose from.
Rob
I love nickel keywinds
Jeff Hess
Gold Business Member
----
tons of these around. halmarks are usually AB for Albert Bedford who ran Dennison operation until Dennisons passing in the 1880's.They seem to often be in terrific condition also. lots of them around for good prices.
Les harland
Registered User
The Hallmark also confirms any date you have for the movement
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