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What is this: Omega/Brandt CCR or DR chronometer?

fdboucher

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Greetings!

I've been lurking around this board for a while, and find it very interesting.

I have collected over the years a few vintage Omegas, among which some Railroad Chronometers. I have a question:

Here is the movement of a chronometer that I am considering buying:

30.jpg

It is nice, although the dial has a faint crack. But there is something very strange about it...

You probably know that Omega chronometers in those days came in many grades: A, B, C, CR, CCR, CCCR, DR, DDR among those.

The higher-grades, fully jewelled high-grade rubies with inset "chatons" , regulated in 5 positions CCR, CCCR, DR and DDR were approved by the Canadian Pacific Railways for their employees. CCR and CCCR were named "Canada" because they were approved by the CPR.

This watch shows a CCR grade engraved on the bridge.

However, the finish of this movement is of a higher, DR grade watch: note the bevelled, polished screws, and the regulating "snail" mechanism, only seen in DR and DDR grades.

I have a CCR and a CCCR, and have posted pictures in the Image Gallery of this forum: notice how the screws are not polished, and the regulator is very different:

31.jpg

Plus, this watch has the serial number of a DR grade chronometer (2,508,576: 19"' DRs of 1906 were numbered 2,508,444 to 2,508,623; CCRs had different serial numbers)...

In summary, this is a real Omega (or Brandt) chronometer, but I believe its has been tampered with: the bridge has been exchanged for a CCR bridge. This is very strange. Unless the movement left the Brandt/Omega factory with a different bridge. Some calibers engraved CCCR are known to really be CCR...

Anyone have an explanation...?

Thank you very much for your consideration!
 

Kent

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Here is a 1915 Ad Showing Omega's L. Brandt Railroad Grades. The same grades, labeled Omega, were accepted on some U.S. railroads. As you stated, it notes the different regulators.

Nevertheless, the data base that Ed Ueberall and I have been maintaining lists the following 16-size, 19-jewel movements:

2,508,561 - CCR, fitted with a Nautilus (snail) regulator
2,508,596 - DR
 

fdboucher

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Here is a 1915 Ad Showing Omega's L. Brandt Railroad Grades. The same grades, labeled Omega, were accepted on some U.S. railroads. As you stated, it notes the different regulators.

Nevertheless, the data base that Ed Ueberall and I have been maintaining lists the following 16-size, 19-jewel movements:

2,508,561 - CCR, fitted with a Nautilus (snail) regulator
2,508,596 - DR
Thank you so much, Kent! And thanks for the database!

I received the following confirmation from the Omega museum in Bienne this morning:
Bonjour Monsieur Boucher,

Il y a effectivement une bizzarerie avec cette pièce, vous avez raison, car nos registres des mises en oeuvre des mouvements indiquent que ce No 2'508'576 est effectivement un calibre 19"' LO DR NN Nickel, fabriqué en 1906. Si elle est d'origine, ce serait donc une erreur d'assemblage. Sinon, on peut imaginer que le pont de rouage gravé DR ait été remplacé par un pont gravé CCR lors d'une réparation, ou par un collectionneur. A toutes fins utiles, comparez encore votre mouvement - dessus et dessous - avec les définitions des qualités CCR et DR qui se trouvent à la p. 205 du livre Omega Saga. Peut-être est-ce un problème de nombre de chatons vissés?
Merci de me tenir au courant de ce que vous pourriez découvrir.

A tout hasard, donnez-moi encore le numéro de série de la boîte. C'est probablement une boîte canadienne ou américaine, mais on ne sait jamais...

Bien à vous et à la prochaine.
...
Musée Omega, Omega SA
96, rue Stämpfli
CH-2500 Bienne 4
Suisse
Summary translation: this is indeed a DR-grade chronometer, according to the serial number in the Omega Factory work-initiation records. The bridge may have been assembled at the factory by mistake, or switched later by a collector or watchmaker.

Best regards.
 
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fdboucher

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Kent,

the following may be of help for your database. I got these serial numbers from the Omega book: Omega, A Journey through Time, by Marco Richon (Ed.: Omega, Bienne, 2007. ISBN: 978-2-9700562-2-5) p. 168.

L = Lepine , O = Omega caliber , CCCR = CCR quality (23 jewels incl. 15 collets) for 19 and 20''' official chronometer , NN = New negative time-setting
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grade C = "C" quality (15/16/17/19 jewels incl. 7 or 8 collets), regulator adjuster with screws or with snail star-wheel adjusted to less than a minute per week.
Grade CC = Fine "C" quality.
Grade CCC = Very fine "CC" quality for 19 and 20"'
Grade CCR = Extra fine "CC" quality for 19 and 20"'
Grade CCCR = 23 jewels incl. 15 collets for 19 and 20"', official chronometer.

Intended as official chronometers, the CCCR calibres were produced between 1905 and 1911. Grades CCR and CCCR were named "Canada", because a large part of their production was delivered to Canadian railways, which had extremely high standards. (Omega: A Journey Through Time, p. 171).

According to Journey, these are the serial numbers for these chronometers:

19"' CCCR:
2,513,844-2,514,023: 180 Lépines LO in 1906
2,516,364-2,516,543: 180 Lépines S0 in 1905
3,225,992-3,226,151: 180 Lépines LO in 1910-1912
3,658,532-3,658,711: 180 Lépines LO CCR NN, but engraved CCCR in ca. 1911

20"' CCCR:
2,504,652-2,504,831: 180 Lépines LO in 1905-1906
2,520,504-2,520,683: 180 Lépines SO in 1906
3,225,792-3,225,991: 180 Lépines LO in 1908
3,666,458-3,666,637: 180 Lépines LO in ca. 1911

And these are serial numbers for grades DR and DDR chronometers:

19"' DR:
2,508,444 to 2,508,623 : 180 Lepines LO
2,520,414 to 2,520,503 : 90 Hunters SO

20"' DR:
2,504,292 to 2,504,471 : 180 Lepines LO
2,520,324 to 2,520,413 : 90 Hunters SO

19"' DDR:
2,584,644 to 2,585,003 : 360 Lepines LO - 1906-1907
2,618,496 to 2,618,885 : 360 Hunters SO - 1906-1907
3,809,132 to 3,809,311 : 180 Hunters SO - 1911

20"' DDR:
2,361,912 to 2,362,271 : 360 Lepines LO - 1905
2,635,896 to 2,635,955 : 60 Hunters SO - 1905
3,000,000 to 3,000,035 : 36 Lepines LO - 1908
 

Kent

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François:

Thank you for the information, I've copied it and will save it. However and apparently, we can only look at those serial number ranges and grade descriptions as generalized data, to which there are exceptions. Two of those, we've discussed above: CCR marked movements, within the range of what should be DR grade, fitted with the nautilus (snail) regulator. One might have been altered, but would a second one with a near-by serial number have also been altered? Perhaps.

U.S. watch factories were known to do strange things (not necessarily shown in surviving records) in order to sell watches. Elgin "pulled" movements from runs of a grade that were being made and marked them for a different grade entirely. One group of examples involved 3/4-plate movements being marked for a grade (No. 349) only listed as being full-plate movements.

Perhaps if more examples in this serial number range are reported to us (on this message board, or in emails, it would shed more light on the subject.

The data base that Ed and I are maintaining is of specific North American railroad grade (and other interesting) watches. We try to capture:

Serial Number
Size
No. of Jewels
Type of dial and case
Hunter or open-face
Movement details (setting means, number and type of adjustments, type of regulator, type of settings if extraordinary, unique or private label markings, & etc.).

We've been doing this for quite a while now and there are close to 40,000 watches described in the data base.
 

fdboucher

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Two of those, we've discussed above: CCR marked movements, within the range of what should be DR grade, fitted with the nautilus (snail) regulator. One might have been altered, but would a second one with a near-by serial number have also been altered? Perhaps.
Thank you Kent. Considering these two that we now know of, I agree with you that it is probably a variant of the CCR that came out of the Omega factory. Very interesting!

Is your database public? If so, how can it be accessed? Do you want more information on my two chronomètres?
 
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Kent

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Is your database public? If so, how can it be accessed?
Sadly no, it is not accessable, although Ed and I freely share the information in it that may be pertnent to the currect discussion (this is much more frequently seen in the American Pocket Watches section).

Do you want more information on my two chronomètres?
Well, since you asked, can you please confirm that both are lever-set ? Also please confirm that serial number 2,508,576 is 16-size, while serial number 3,502,644 is 18-size (being built for the North American market, these are sized to fit American cases)? If it convenient to post pictures of the dials, that would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
 

fdboucher

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Well, since you asked, can you please confirm that both are lever-set ? Also please confirm that serial number 2,508,576 is 16-size, while serial number 3,502,644 is 18-size (being built for the North American market, these are sized to fit American cases)? If it convenient to post pictures of the dials, that would be very much appreciated.
I do not have S/N 2,508,576 in hand. I'm considering acquiring that one.

Both my watches are lever-set. Pictures may be found here:

CCR : S/N 3,502,644. Signed manual winding "Ls Brandt & Freres S.A - Grade CCR", Cal. 20 LO CCR NN, 19 jewels, 8 in screwed chatons, safety pinion, straight-line lever escapement, cut bimetallic compensation balance, blued steel Breguet balance spring, star shape micrometer regulator,"oeil-de-Perdrix" decoration. Adjusted 5 positions, chronometer grade. Case : Three-body, yellow gold filled case (signed GOLD FILLED ULTRA QUALITY , REGINA) with both screwed-in type bezel and back cover. The overall condition is great for its age.
Dial : White enamel dial, recessed center and small seconds. Arabic numerals, complete minutes circle with dots and with each minute explicitly marked (each fifth minute in red), small black Arabic numerals 13 -24 in the recessed center. Blued steel "spade" hands.
Watch Size : Diameter (w/o handle & crown) is approx. 51.5mm. Thickness is approx 145mm including crystal.

CCCR : S/N 2,504,814. Signed manual winding "Ls Brandt & Freres S.A - Grade CCCR", 23 jewels Cal. 20 LO CCCR NN, rhodium-plated, "oeil-de-Perdrix" decoration, Adjusted 5 positions, chronometer grade. Case : Three-body, two-tone case, sterling 925 case back and bezel, case middle and stem are gold coloured, both screwed-in type bezel and back cover, The bezel and back screw on and off as they should, and both screw up tight. No main damage, the overall condition is great for its age. Watch Size : Diameter (w/o handle & crown) is approx. 55mm. Thickness is approx 18mm including crystal.

Furthermore, my good friend Kenneth Day owns two more CCRs. I have pictures of only one, but will be sending more information later.
 

fdboucher

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Two more Brandt CCR-grade RR chronometers

Click on the serial numbers for pictures.

S/N 3,502,502. Signed manual winding "Ls Brandt & Freres S.A - GRADE CCR", Ca. 1908

Cal. 19"' NN L CCR, 19 jewels, with screwed chatons, safety pinion, straight-line lever escapement, cut bimetallic compensation balance, blued steel Breguet balance spring, star shape micrometer regulator, decorated bridges. Adjusted 5 positions, chronometer grade.
Case : Three-body, yellow gold filled (?) case (signed "EMPRESS – A.W.C.C.CO – CASE MADE IN CANADA – 3949180") with both screwed-in type bezel and back cover. The overall condition is great for its age.
Dial : White enamel dial, recessed center and small seconds. Signed "A. BOURGOIN – PRICE Co. MATANE – QUE." Arabic numerals, complete minutes track, small black Arabic numerals 13 -24 in the recessed center. Blued steel "spade" hands.
Watch Size : Diameter (w/o handle & crown) is approx. 53 mm. Thickness is approx 18 mm including crystal.

S/N 2,514,041
. Signed manual winding "Ls Brandt & Freres S.A - GRADE CCR", Hunter style caliber

Cal. 19"' NN S CCR, 19 jewels, screwed chatons, safety pinion, straight-line lever escapement, cut bimetallic compensation balance, blued steel Breguet balance spring, star shape micrometer regulator, decorated bridges. Adjusted to 5 positions, chronometer grade.
Case : Three-body, yellow gold filled hunter case (signed "Fortune A.W.C.Co 20 Years – 431714") with both screwed-in type bezel and back cover. Flowers and a heart engraved on the back. The overall condition is excellent for its age.
Dial : White enamel dial, recessed center and small seconds. Signed "BRANDT". Paris-style Arabic numerals, complete minutes track with small black Paris-style Arabic numerals 13 -24 in the recessed center. Blued steel "poire" hands.
Watch Size : Diameter (w/o handle & crown) is approx. 55 mm. Thickness is approx 18 mm including crystal.

Best regards.
 
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Kent

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François:

Thanks for the additional information. Here is the data that Ed and I have on higher grade Omega pocket watches, Some of the 21-jewel movements may not be highly adjusted, unless so noted. I've tried to make everything line up but there may be some shifted infromation. I may have to edit it several times to clean it up. Slashes and dashes have been used to fill in were data is missing.

Serial No. Type Sz Jl Grade Dial - - - - - - Notes

2,361,916 OF 18 23 DDR - - DS RN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt " Brandt" Dial "Watson Bros., Calgary"
2,361,952 OF 18 23 DDR - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,361,979 OF 18 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, GJS, DES, Mvt "Ls. Brandt & Frere S.A - DDR" Dial "Brandt-Omega",
2,362,153 OF 18 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Mvt "L. Brandt & Freres, SA"
2,362,154 OF 18 23 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,362,186 OF 18 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - Brandt & Freres, SA, Canadian Case: "Sovereign"
2,362,227 OF 18 23 DDR - - DS AN - - - A5P, Motor Bbl, Mvt "Omega Chronometer DDR" Dial "Omega Chronometer"
2,392,239 OF 16? 21 /-/-/-/- SS AN - - - "Superior Adjusted" Nautilus Reg, 3/4 plate, Dial "Omega"
2,392,256 OF 18 21 Regina - DS AN 24 - A5P, Snail Reg, Private Label Dial
2,392,291 OF 18 21 Regina - /-/-/-/-/-/
2,500,370 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Dial 'Keast & Brown - Farnham, Que." Sturdy "Nickel Silver" Low Stem Case #4620181
2,500,388 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Dial 'D.A. Reesor, Brandon, Man" Case "Lonville Watch Co."
2,500,456 OF 18 19 CCR - - /-/-/-/-/-/
2,500,483 OF 18 19 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,500,529 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN - - - LS, A5P, Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Porte Extra Special"
2,500,625 OF 18 19 CCR - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,305 OF 18 19 DR - - - DS AN M 24 LS, A5P "Brandt" B&B Royal 20 Yr Case #6469825
2,504,330 OF 18 19 DR - - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,346 OF 18 19 DR - - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,394 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Nautilus Reg, Mvt "Brandt - Grade CCR" Fortune case
2,504,666 OF 18 23 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt", Dueber Case
2,504,755 OF 18 23 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,774 OF 18 23 CCCR - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,775 OF 18 23 CCCR - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,776 OF 18 23 CCCR - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,504,780 OF 18 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - A5P, Snail Reg, Mvt "Brandt", Dial "D.E.Black, Calgary Can"
2,504,814 OF 18 23 CCCR - SS RN - - - A5P, Snail Reg, Mvt "Brandt" Dial "J.B. Knowles Kelowna B.C" Case B&B .925, Ctr Gold-Colored
2,508,561 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Snail Reg, Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Geo. Beall Lindsay
2,508,576 OF 16 19 CCR - - /-/-/-/-/-/ A5P, Nautilus (Snail) Reg, Mvt "Brandt"
2,508,596 OF 16 19 DR - - - /-/-/-/-/-/ A5P, Mvt "Brandt"
2,508,600 OF 16 19 DR - - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,508,625 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Mvt "Brandt"
2,508,727 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS RN 24 - A5P, AWCCo Fortune Case
2,508,749 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 -
2,508,800 OF 16 19 CCR - - SS AN - - - A5P, Star Whl Reg, Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Omega-Ellis Bros.Toronto"
2,513,865 OF 16 23 /-/-/-/- - - AN - - LS, A5P, Dial Luminescent Numbers/Hds, "Omega"
2,513,914 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "Ls.Brandt & Frere" Dial "E.A.Black, Phoenix B.C."
2,513,921 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS RN 24 - LS, A5P
2,513,934 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN - - - LS, A5P, Star Whl w/ Slot Reg, NOT Marked CCCR, GJS, Mtr Bbl Mvt & Dial "Omega"
2,513,952 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN - - - A5P, Mvt & Dial "Brandt" but under dial "Omega"
2,513,966 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Star Whl w/ Slot Reg, GJS, Mtr Bbl, Mvt "L Brandt Frere S.A., CCCR" Dial "A Logan & Co., Greenwood, BC"
2,514,006 OF 16 23 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,514,041 HC 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Star Whl w/ Snail Track Reg, Jeweled Mtr Bbl, HC Mvt, "L. Brandt & Freres SA, Grade CCR, 19 jewels" AWCCo Fortune Winged Whl Trade Mark 20 Yr Case #431714
2,514,285 HC 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Star Involute Slot Reg, Jeweled Mtr Bbl, HC Mvt "L. Brandt & Frere S.A.Grade CCR, 19 jewels"
2,514,745 OF 18 23 CCCR - DS RN 24 - Eccentric Star Reg, Mvt "L. Brandt & Freres, Grade CCCR" Dial "Regina- H.M. Tark, Dauphin, Man" Fortune Case
2,516,366 HC 18 23 CCCR - SS AN - - - LS, A5P, Eccentric Star Reg, Mvt "L. Brandt & Freres, Grade CCCR" Dial "E Deull Pottsville, PA" Keystone Case
2,516,402 HC 16 23 CCCR - /-/-/-/-/-/ A5P "Brandt"
2,516,415 OF 16 23 CCCR - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,516,615 HC 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Snail Reg, HC Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Brandt-Omega" Cashier Case #2143742
2,516,629 HC 16 19 CCR - - DS RN 24 - A5P, Snail Reg, HC Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Brandt-Omega" Cashier Case #2143742
2,516,664 HC 16 19 CCR - - SS AN - - - LS, A5P, PL, Dial "E. Deull Pottsville, PA"
2,520,453 HC 16 19 DR - - - DS AN 24 - PS, A5P, Snail Reg.,Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Brandt-Omega"
2,524,683 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- SS AN M LS, A5P, Nautilus Reg, Plain Circular Damaskeening, Mvt & Dial "Omega" Defiance Case #3318562.
2,524,707 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - LS, A5P, NOT Marked CCCR; Mvt & Dial"Omega" Seller says 18 s, but lever is at 6 min, not 11 min, so is 16 size
2,524,723 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - LS, A5P, Snail Reg., Omega Dial
2,524,969 HC 16 21 DDC - - DS AN M - LS, A5P, Snail Reg., Mvt "Grade DDC" Omega Dial
2,524,974 HC 16 21 /-/-/-/- AN Fancy - - Wilmot's Patented Micrometric Regulator, Omega Fancy Dial w/ Blue Numbers
2,524,983 HC 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - PS, A5P, Snail Reg, Damaskeening like CCR, Omega Dial, seller says 'Probable Recase'
2,524,983 HC 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - PS, A5P, Snail Reg, Dial "Omega" Crescent Case #1748721. Relisted from Above and Sold.
2,524,997 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - "Superior Adjusted", Nautilus Reg
2,567,694 HC 16 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
2,567,704 HC 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - PS "Superior Adjusted" Teardrop Reg, Curved 3F Brg Mvt "Not marked Omega, Dial "Decimal" Canadian Case
2,584,690 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Nautilus Reg, DES, GT, GJS, Mvt "L. Brandt & Freres SA"
2,584,692 HC ## 23 DDR - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,584,724 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Nautilus Reg, DES, GT, GJS, Mvt "L. Brandt & Freres SA", Dial "Brandt", Short Pendant (modern) Case.
2,584,725 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - Dial "Brandt"
2,584,727 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "Ls. Brandt & Frere DDR" Dial "Brandt" Fortune Case # 3531140
2,587,656 OF 16 21 DD - - - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
2,604,465 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Nautilus Reg, DES, GT, GJS, HC Mvt "L. Brandt & Freres SA" Boxcar Dial "Brandt - Omega" Short Pendant (modern) Case.
2,635,810 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN M 24 LS, A5P, Mvt "Brandt & Freres" Dial "Omega Brandt" "Regal Solid 14 Kt Gold" Case #253335
2,780,271 OF 18 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
2,780,282 OF 18 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
2,780,578 Uk 16 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
2,804,350 Uk 16 19 DR - - - /-/-/-/-/-/ A5P "Brandt"
2,993,994 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - PS, A3P, Mvt & Dial "Decimal"
3,048,754 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- SS AN 24 - PS, WhpSpg Reg, Pearled Nickel Mvt & Dial "Geo. E. Ash -High River, Alta " Case "Central Watch Case Co." #3193256
3,049,412 OF 16 21 Regina /-/-/-/-/-/
3,125,278 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
3,213,789 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS RN 24 - LS, A5P, Spiril Disc Reg "Ls. Brandt & Frère S. A." Dial "A. Logan & Co., Greenwood, B.C."
3,271,157 OF 18 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
3,295,263 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/
3,502,392 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P Mvt "Ls Brandt & Frere SA" Dial "Brandt-Omega" Fortuner Case #3643665
3,502,502 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Star Shape Mic Reg, Mvt "Brandt" Dial "A. Bourgoin – Price Co. Matane – Que." Empress Crown Trade Mark Case #3949180
3,502,532 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Mvt "Ls Brandt & Frere SA" Dial "Brandt-Omega" Banner Case # 278204
3,502,558 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "Brandt" Fortune Case
3,502,592 OF 18 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "Brandt" Dial "Brandt/Omega" Fortune Case
3,502,644 OF 51.5mm 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 M LS, A5P, Star (w/ snail Track) Reg, Mvt "Ls Brandt & Frere SA" Regina "Gold Filled Ultra Quality"
3,658,559 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN - - M LS, A5P, Mvt & Dial "Omega"
3,658,560 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN - - M LS, A5P, Mvt "Grade CCCR, Omega Watch Co., 23 Jewels", Wavy line damaskeen, Star & Pin Reg.
3,658,665 OF 16 19 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - A5P, Bee Hive Damaskeening
3,666,526 OF 18 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Star Reg, Wavy Line Damaskeened Mvt "Ls. Brandt & Frere, S.A." Boxcar Dial "Brandt - Omega" 54mm Overall
3,666,597 OF 18 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Slot Star Reg, Wavy Line Damaskeenied Mvt "Brandt, Grade CCCR" Boxcar Dial "Brandt-Omega"
3,666,603 Uk 18 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt & Dial "Brandt"
3,666,620 OF 18 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt & Dial "Brandt"
5,091,269 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "L. Brandt & Frere S.A." Dial "Brandt-Omega" Fortune High Stem Case
5,091,282 OF 16 23 CCCR - /-/-/-/-/-/ "Brandt"
5,091,313 OF 18 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Brandt, Dial "Omega" Fortune Case
5,091,414 OF 16 23 CCCR - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "CCCR, Safety Pinion" Dial "E.M.Langlaise,Fraserville, Que"
5,226,475 OF 16 19 /-/-/-/- DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "L. Brandt & Frere S.A." Dial "Brandt-Omega" Fortune Case
5,226,498 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - LS, A5P, Mvt "L. Brandt & Frere S.A." Dial "Brandt" Banner Case #266465
5,983,447 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS RN - - - A6P, Nautilus Reg, Grade "Verybest" Mtr Bbl
5,983,517 OF 16 23 DDR - - DS AN - - - A6P, Nautilus Reg, Grade "Verybest" Mtr Bbl
6,358,539 OF 16 19 CCR - - DS AN 24 - A5P, Snail-Track Star Whl Reg, Mvt "Ls. Brandt & Frere S.A." Dial "Brandt" Regal Case No. 199406
 
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fdboucher

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Confirmation from the Omega museum in Bienne...

Bonjour Monsieur Boucher,

Je vous suis très reconnaissant de votre nouveau message et de vos fort pertinentes observations!
Rien d'étonnant à ce que ce chronomètre 2'508'561 soit aussi identifié CCR, car il fait partie de la même série des soi-disant DR (selon nos registres) que le 2'508'576 dont vous m'avez envoyé la photo.
Conclusion: je vais modifier les descriptions des qualités DR et CCR, en disant que qu'une partie des DR a été indentifiée CCR, et que ces derniers (ainsi que les CCCR) peuvent être équipés d'une raquette-régulateur à vis, ou à colimaçon gradué, ou à étoile colimaçon gradué.

Avec mes salutations les plus cordiales.

...
Musée Omega, Omega SA
96, rue Stämpfli
CH-2500 Bienne 4
Suisse
tél. 0041(0)32.343.93.04, fax 0041(0)32.343.98.70

Some of the DRs were identified as CCR, and these may be equipped with star, snail or nautilus-type regulators.

Interesting stuff! Thank you very much for your help, guys!
 

wellsie

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François:

Thank you for the information, I've copied it and will save it. However and apparently, we can only look at those serial number ranges and grade descriptions as generalized data, to which there are exceptions. Two of those, we've discussed above: CCR marked movements, within the range of what should be DR grade, fitted with the nautilus (snail) regulator. One might have been altered, but would a second one with a near-by serial number have also been altered? Perhaps.

U.S. watch factories were known to do strange things (not necessarily shown in surviving records) in order to sell watches. Elgin "pulled" movements from runs of a grade that were being made and marked them for a different grade entirely. One group of examples involved 3/4-plate movements being marked for a grade (No. 349) only listed as being full-plate movements.

Perhaps if more examples in this serial number range are reported to us (on this message board, or in emails, it would shed more light on the subject.

The data base that Ed and I are maintaining is of specific North American railroad grade (and other interesting) watches. We try to capture:

Serial Number
Size
No. of Jewels
Type of dial and case
Hunter or open-face
Movement details (setting means, number and type of adjustments, type of regulator, type of settings if extraordinary, unique or private label markings, & etc.).

We've been doing this for quite a while now and there are close to 40,000 watches described in the data base.


hello Kent,

rick here from northern Ontario Canada.

Francois suggested I have a look at this conversation as I have just became the proud owner, and growing prouder by the day, of a Brandt DR grade pocket watch. I've attached photos of it and as much info as possible for you to add to your data base.
47.jpg 48.jpg

Serial Number: 2504436
Size: 20
No. of Jewels: 19
Type of dial and case: Keystone base metal #76127


I hope this information will be of interest to you.

thanks,
rick
1.gif 2.gif 3.gif
 

Kent

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Hi rick:

That's a nice watch, thanks for posting the pictures and the data.

I was unable to read the adjustment marking, was that "Adjusted To 5 Positions"?

It is very unlikely to be a 20-size watch. It is hard to tell the size from these pictures because the 16 and 18 size Omega movements are very, very similar. The DR movements I've seen in this general serial number range are lever-set. Thus, a good rule to use is: If it is lever-set and the lever is at the 6 minute position (21 minute if hunting-case) then it is a 16-size watch. If it is lever-set and the lever is at the 11 minute position (26 minute if hunting-case) then it is an 18-size watch. Which is yours?

Since you're up in Northern Ontario, you might like This Watch. Kathy Pritchard once remarked that she thought that it was made by Regina before Omega bought the company. It is the most highly adjusted Regina watch I've seen. If anyone can shed more light upon it, that'd be much appreciated.

Thanks again for your cooperation,
 
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fdboucher

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Hi rick:...
Since you're up in Northern Ontario, you might like This Watch. Kathy Pritchard once remarked that she thought that it was made by Regina before Omega bought the company. It is the most highly adjusted Regina watch I've seen. If anyone can shed more light upon it, that'd be much appreciated.

Thanks again for your cooperation,
Rick,

See?...one thing leads to another... then, you're HOOKED FOR LIFE!!!!

4.gif
 

astonvilla

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I have a question about this Omega Brandt grade cccr 16 size.
Should there not be a jewel on the ratchet wheel?
https://mb.nawcc.org/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=127
 

rrwatch

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Yes, a CCCR Grade should have an externally jeweled barrel. However as the damaskeening on the barrel bridge does not match the damaskeening on the other plates, I would suspect that the entire bridge, along with its mainspring barrel assembly, may have been taken from another Omega movement. Pulling the balance cock or train bridge and comparing the serial number stamped on the bottom to the one on the train bridge will provide confirmation if all the parts started out life together or not.
 

astonvilla

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Yes, I suspect the same. Another way would be to check under the dial , if the original serial number is there. If it is not the same as on the bridge, then someone has taken these parts from another omega movement.
 

beta21

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Kent, I think Rick's watch is an 18s. The bridge screws are located more to the periphery on the 16s mvt

Peter
 

doug sinclair

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Francois,

I just stumbled over your post re: your Brandt CCR, and I thought I would add my CCR to your post. This one is a private label from Greenwood, British Columbia, S #3213769. It incorporates the same finish as your one Brandt, and the regulator from the later one.

Doug S
 

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fdboucher

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Francois,

I just stumbled over your post re: your Brandt CCR, and I thought I would add my CCR to your post. This one is a private label from Greenwood, British Columbia, S #3213769. It incorporates the same finish as your one Brandt, and the regulator from the later one.

Doug S
This is very interesting! Thanks for your contribution, and remember you can enter your pocket watch in the NAWCC database that Ed & Kent are keeping so carefully!

Best regards.
 

Kent

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Nice Omega watch Grant!

It has a great dial. Is it 16-size & lever-set?
 

Kevin W.

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Nice one Grant, that,s a keeper.very nice shape.:):)
You should have a look at Mel Nash,s Omega watch sometime. Really nice in a solid gold case.
 

kusaya

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2,524,997 OF 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - "Superior Adjusted", Nautilus Reg


2,524,997 HC 16 21 /-/-/-/- DS AN - - - "Superior Adjusted", Nautilus Reg, Omega Dial,Pendant set

http://up2.tachiuo.com/up2/img/599.jpg
 

Kent

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Hi kusaya:

Welcome to the NAWCC European & Other Pocket Watches Message Board!

Thanks you for your correction of the data on Omega serial number 2,524,997.

I appreciate your taking the time to post the correction and the picture.
 

doug sinclair

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Scanning through the examples shown there certainly seems to be a variety of damask patterns on these watches. I noted several duplicates, but also several that appear to stand alone.
 

doug sinclair

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Looking at Grant Perry's Brandt dial for a moment. In a thread elsewhere on this MB, there was a discussion of Montgomery dials. I realize Grant's dial is not a Montgomery because it doesn't have the "6" in the seconds bit. But otherwise, that dial has all the features that a 24-hour Montgomery dial would have, n'est ce pas?
 

fdboucher

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Here is Grant Perry's watch face:
attachment.jpg

It is not a "Montgomery dial", as you said.

Moreover, this dial does not have the characteristics of the "Pickersgill" "Western Canadian Railways" dial.

A while back, Mr. Peter Kushnir (Master Watchmaker) and Mr. Charles Lock (famous Waltham Watch Collector) told a very interesting true story to a watchmaker in Montreal concerning the Western Canadian Railroad dial. This is what he told me:

Back in the early part of this century there was a man called Vern Pickersgill who lived and worked in Winnipeg Manitoba for the CPR railroad. He was in charge of all railroad pocket watches from Manitoba to British Colombia, as was Mr. Peter Kushnir, who was in charge of all Canadian railroad watches from Ontario to Nova Scotia.

Apparently, one day in the 1930's, Mr. Pickersgill wanted to have a 24 hour dial which would be different from the American and Eastern Canada as well, so he made the "TRUE" Western Canadian model railroad dial in outer 24 Roman numerals and with an inner 24 hour Arabic. Which is called since the 1930's to this present day the "Pickersgill" Canadian railroad dial.

205.jpg
 

Kent

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Regarding the marginal minute dials pictured above, except for the red five-minute numbers, the minute numbers lack the tens digits. So even if the dial had the '6' it still wouldn't be a true Montgomery dial. In fact, I don't believe that there is a record of Montgomery ever describing a version of his dial as having 13-24 hour figures.
 

doug sinclair

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Is Grant Perry's dial odd, or is it just me? The marginal minutes go from 1 to 30, TWICE! I don't recall ever seeing a dial marked in such a manner.

As to the "Pickersgill" dial- My private label Brandt from circa 1905 has the Roman/Arabic 24-hour dial. So it appears bto have been in existence before Mr Pickersgill.
 

fdboucher

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As to the "Pickersgill" dial- My private label Brandt from circa 1905 has the Roman/Arabic 24-hour dial. So it appears bto have been in existence before Mr Pickersgill.
You are right… Mine is from 1905… I wonder if the date's wrong, or if this "Pickersgill" dial might be different in some way…
 

doug sinclair

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I knew of a JACK Pickersgill who was involved in the CPR, but it seems to me his involvement would have been in the '50s or perhaps '60s. In light of the fact (it appears) as though the Roman dial fell out of favor 100 years ago or more, it would seem that dials such as Grant's (and mine) must be from that earlier era.
 

durnik56

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Hi Kent,

I came upon your post researching Omega export movements. I recently acquired an Omega 16 Size for the Canadian market. Serial Number is 2587664- 21J - OF - Pendant Set. It's marked with British American Watch Co. and Superior Adjusted. It's a private label as the dial is marked J.E. Nettleton. The case has an odd double stamp. I have attached photos for you.

Omega Private Label 2587664 Movement.jpg Omega Private Label 2587664 Dial.jpg Omega Private Label 2587664 Case 1.jpg Omega Private Label 2587664 Case 2.jpg
 

rrwatch

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Here is another example, this one is a hunting case, SN 2,454,617, with identical movement and dial markings.

EBU 16290 Regina British American Watch Co J E Nettleton 21J HC Case Back.jpg EBU 16290 Regina British American Watch Co J E Nettleton 21J HC Case Front.jpg EBU 16290 Regina British American Watch Co J E Nettleton 21J HC Dial.jpg EBU 16290 Regina British American Watch Co J E Nettleton 21J HC Mvt.jpg
 

Allan C. Purcell

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I bought this about ten years ago, after a visit to the "Bad Grun" museum in the hearts mountains of Germany. The museum has there, Loise Brandt's own workshop. So I bought it because he is the father of OMEGA. Nothing fantastic, but I like to wear it now and then. The Museum is a must if you get the chance. (There is a film on the net)

Allan.


000-17.JPG 000-16.JPG 000-15.JPG

000-14.JPG 000-18.JPG
 
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