What is it?

[intergalactron]

Trying to figure out what this movement is. Dial is marked “M. Timpane, Troy NY”. Serial number is 564285. Dial is 1.800”, lever set… No case. I have it partially disassembled, but I don’t have a jewel count yet, as I am waiting for a pin vice to get the cannon pinion off.

 

[roughbarked]

Pinvice for the canon pinion?
It just taps out.

 

[musicguy]

It looks like a Swiss Private Label from a Jeweler in Troy NY
I believe I may have a PL from this Jeweler.


Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Is there anything stamped on the plate under the dial? A winged hourglass or a fish?

 

[intergalactron]

Pinvice for the canon pinion?
It just taps out.

I can’t get it to budge with a lever.

 

[intergalactron]

It looks like a Swiss Private Label from a Jeweler in Troy NY
I believe I may have a PL from this Jeweler.


Rob

I’m new at this… what’s a PL?

 

[musicguy]

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/private-label-watch.50051/

"Private label watches are those watches upon which the manufacturers placed their customers' choices of markings"


Rob

 

[gmorse]

Hi intergalactron,

I can’t get it to budge with a lever.

The centre arbor on these is usually hollow with a pin passing through it, and the cannon pinion is a pretty tight fit on the pin. The action to allow hand setting is achieved by the pin being able to turn in the hollow centre arbor, although still with enough friction to drive the motion work. Tapping the pin out from the dial side is the safest way to do it; if you try and lever the cannon pinion off, especially using only one lever, you risk bending or breaking the pin.

Regards,

Graham

 

[intergalactron]

PL = Private Label… Yeesh. I should have known or been able to infer that.

 

[John Pavlik]

Another example ..

 

[roughbarked]

Tapping the pin out from the dial side is the safest way to do it

An anvil with a hole to accomodate the tapped through pin on the other side, will help.

 

[intergalactron]

Here's dial side and opposite. Tiny gear on dial side, big gear on opposite.

 

[intergalactron]

Excellent call on tapping that shaft out. The pin vice didn't work. It might have, but I was scared to tighten it too much.

 

[intergalactron]

I can find no other markings on this movement, other than the sn and M.Timpane. So... back to the original question. What is it? And where can I get parts for it?

 

[John Cote]

I'm not sure anybody is going to be able to tell you exactly who made this movement. The usual way these came into the US from Switzerland was through a distributor, usually in NYC who had the contacts in Geneva and imported lots of movements. These movements were put together from parts made in the cottage industry of Swiss watchmaking. Sometimes we can know who the finisher of the better movements was. Your movement is, unfortunately not one of the better imports. It is sort of generic. Usually, the only way to find parts is to buy a donor movement which has the same plate layout. I seriously doubt that any parts house is going to have drawers full of parts...or even know where the drawers would be if they did. Look for a similar movement. Perhaps between the two you will be able to assemble a working watch.

 

[intergalactron]

I was afraid of that. Even if I can’t get it to a running state, it’s already served the purpose of being something to practice on.

 

[John Cote]

I was afraid of that. Even if I can’t get it to a running state, it’s already served the purpose of being something to practice on.

That's the spirit. If you save this movement, perhaps not as a project to bring back to working but as a learning experience, you will someday stumble upon an almost working and originally cased example which will need a part from this movement. The only trouble with this philosophy is that you could end up like a lot of us with boxes full of old movements and other junk. Nerd-dom is a dangerous thing.

 

[roughbarked]

I had never thought that I was a nerd but put that way, maybe we all are?
I'm very sure that many members of this board have not only done a lot of research but also have access to better reference material than I have. From my humble viewpoint, this was not the cheapest of watches available to American importers even though it was not actually finished by a well known name, it was a base model of better grade than many at the time. You could almost call it as what we see today of Chinese copies of better known brands.

 

[musicguy]

I think the difference is, a nerd does not know they are a nerd. If
you think you are a nerd your not(just kidding) .



Rob

 

[roughbarked]

Nerd is not a term that I grew up with. As far as it goes, for me it applied to the computer age but what is a computer without a clock?

 

[musicguy]

After all this talk I am going to move this watch to the European
section. Someone did ask why it was still here(it is an American PL
thats why I left it) Moving it now for better identification.

Rob

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Following Rick's lead, I'll suggest Longines/Francillon & Cie. Serial number fits, and a preferred private label maker for many folks. Some similarities to the "Caliber B or L" movement on the left of this 1883 ad--click mechanism, balance cock & hairspring stud carrier shapes, F/S adjustment marks, etc. Yours could be its 1890 cousin? Grasping a bit here, but I do see a few Longines from this period out there that are even closer to yours.

 

[roughbarked]

Like this Longines, you mean?



Then again, it isn't all that far away from this design either.

 

[MrRoundel]

Just out of curiosity, what does the barrel-bridge look like? The discoloration of the damasceening on the plate show that there was a barrel-bridge covering the winding (ratchet) wheel not long ago. BTW, my first guess would be a Longines product. I base this mostly on the rough plate design, as well as the type of damasceening. Cheers.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Then again, it isn't all that far away from this design either.

Hardeeharhar

No, like this. OP looks like a larger, modified plate variant.

 

[intergalactron]

Just out of curiosity, what does the barrel-bridge look like? The discoloration of the damasceening on the plate show that there was a barrel-bridge covering the winding (ratchet) wheel not long ago. BTW, my first guess would be a Longines product. I base this mostly on the rough plate design, as well as the type of damasceening. Cheers.

 

[MrRoundel]

So, intergalactron, do you actually have that plate that covers the ratchet wheel? Do you see the plate that's partially covering the wheel in mosesgodfrey's last post? I'm just wondering if the movement is incomplete. Cheers.

 

[Dr. Jon]

The example is what I call a Barrel Plate. A barrel bridge to me is pivot support that is secured on both sides of the pivot and exposes the barrel on both sides.

Here is a pure example:



To me it is also a barrel bridge if it covers the drive wheel (the one with the pivot at the center of "Adjusted").

 

[MrRoundel]

Barrel plate works for me. Distinction makes sense. Thanks. Cheers.

 

[intergalactron]

So, intergalactron, do you actually have that plate that covers the ratchet wheel? Do you see the plate that's partially covering the wheel in mosesgodfrey's last post? I'm just wondering if the movement is incomplete. Cheers.

This is all I got. I think it is complete except for stem and case.

 

[MrRoundel]

Good. Thanks for including the new images that show the plate I was inquiring about. That said, it's a bit odd that the damasceening of that plate doesn't follow the rest of the plate decoration. But that is truly just aesthetics. Since it's marked with the same name as shows on the dial, it's almost certainly all original. Enjoy the project.

 

[intergalactron]

Looking back, I failed to mention that the seller on eBay claimed this was a Longines. After receiving it, I kinda arrived at the conclusion that it wasn’t. But maybe it is.

 

[roughbarked]

^ I'd go with, apparently it is.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

It sure looks remarkably similar to my Longines posted in another thread. Here are the two side by side and I believe there are enough similarities to reasonably think that the movement here is Longines. Other than it's general look and the similar dial, the under dial photos show some similarities. Obviously the click is different since the OPs watch has the ratchet wheel on the top plate, and was obviously a better movement. The serial number is right in line as well.



After you get it back together, intergalactron, go to Longines website and ask them to look it up in their archives. It's a great free service they offer. They will need nice clear photos of the movement. Both sides including the underdial, and the dial. Of course, I found out the hard way that if the movement came from their Ebauche department, instead of regular production, Longines will not have records for it.

 

[intergalactron]

If you can't buy parts, make parts. On the left, a broken part from a long time ago, brazed or soldered back together. On the right, one that was made on Thursday.

 

[intergalactron]

The main spring is broke on this watch. How do I go about finding a substitute? Cross section dimensions? Overall length? Attachment features on the ends? Probably all those things... What would the effect be if I made this broken spring work in the short term? Would it change the rate of the watch or would it shorten the time in between winding? Or both?

 

[Chris Radek]

Just measure what you have (thickness, height, length) and either order a suitable spring from a material house's catalog, or use the tables in the Swigart book as a cross reference to find a suitable common American spring specification, and get one on ebay or whatever. It looks like you have a T end, so be sure to select one with that.

If you don't have that book, share your measurements (thickness and height you need to measure with a micrometer) and I bet someone can help you select a spring.

 

[LloydB]

Trying to figure out what this movement is. View attachment 692225

Is that some kind of identification mark at
the bottom left of your movement image?

A larger, in-focus pic might tell us more?

 

[intergalactron]

Is that some kind of identification mark at
the bottom left of your movement image?

A larger, in-focus pic might tell us more?

View attachment 713758

I think that's just some random scratches, but I will get a better pic posted.

 

[intergalactron]

If I put better light on it, it gets very hard to see. Like I say, I think its just random scratches.

 

[intergalactron]

Just measure what you have (thickness, height, length) and either order a suitable spring from a material house's catalog, or use the tables in the Swigart book as a cross reference to find a suitable common American spring specification, and get one on ebay or whatever. It looks like you have a T end, so be sure to select one with that.

If you don't have that book, share your measurements (thickness and height you need to measure with a micrometer) and I bet someone can help you select a spring.

Cross section is .120" x .009"

The bar at the end is Ø.020" x .155"

Overall Length is 22"

The rectangular hole in the end is .045" x .090" and the end is tapered somewhat. If someone can find me a spring I'd appreciate it.