What duh hey???

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Sep 9, 2017.

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  1. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I am a bit perplexed by a Jeromes and Darrow wooden works shelf clock I recently came across.

    My cynical nature says it can't be, but then, can it?

    The main reference I will be referring to is NAWCC Bulletin Supplement #19 by Rogers and Taylor "8 Day Wood Movement Shelf Clocks-Their Cases, Their Movements, Their Makers". Yes, that grand tradition of slender horological volumes with long ponderous titles. Actually, it's an excellent reference. Also see the web site "A Chauncey Jerome Clock Collector", specifically, http://jeromeclockcollector.com/jeromes-darrow-carved-column-splat/

    Briefly, Jeromes and Darrow made 8 day ww shelf clocks. One of the movements they used, # 4.23, has the rather unusual feature of having white metal (also described as "pewter" or "lead alloy") winding drums. They also have a milled circle around the verge pin button and some other features. These movements have only been found in Jeromes and Darrow cases, both stenciled and carved. See Rogers and Taylor, page 4, figure 4, page 6, figures 12, 13, 14, page 30, table 2 and page 31 for pictures of the clock and movement descriptions. An usual feature of the cases they used with these movements is that the pulleys are mounted on blocks above the openings in the top of the case. Rather than using the typical tin caps to cover the openings, the top of the clock is built like a box with a sliding top. The pix below will clarify this.

    Recently what I thought was one of these came up on that popular electronic auction site. When I first saw pictures of the clock, I thought that it was an 8 day Jeromes and Darrow with a 4.23 movement. I did think it a bit odd that the weights shown with the clock were 30 hour weights and NOT compounded. The seller insisted that they were right and ran the clock just fine (not my experience so far).

    Well I already owned a nice example, but since they are a scarce clock, I decided that I would give it a try within limits. I was the high bidder and it arrived.

    The new clock, which I'm calling #2, when compared to the example I already owned (I'm calling that #1) really has me perplexed.

    Here are the 2 clocks side by side (sorry about the megapix):

    [​IMG]

    Here are the labels:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Here's the top of the case of # 1 which is the expected arrangement. As described above, it is basically a box with a chamfered top that slides in rabbits in the returns, almost like a "candle box" of the period (pardon my dust; Hazel quit a while ago):

    [​IMG]

    Here's the pulley arrangement as described above and what would be typical for this particular type of clock:

    [​IMG]

    Now here's the top of the "new" clock:

    [​IMG]

    H'mm. Clearly has the rabbits for the sliding top, now missing. No blocks (nor to my eyes, evidence that they were once present), no compounding.

    Here are the movements:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Look pretty similar, yes?

    Now, compare the winding drums:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    What duh hey? Note that both have white metal winding drums. However, the new example, #2, has big wide ones. They are made and installed just as the "standard" ones are just bigger. I have more detailed pix of the winding drums and ratchets which I will post separately as I'm afraid I'll exceed the limits for attachments. I don't believe that they're someone's tinkering...or are they?

    I've not seen this done before with the white metal winding drums.

    Jerome did turn some 8 day ww into 30 hour but....

    Any thoughts?

    Yes, notice the mustaches.

    RM
     
  2. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Here are some details of the larger white metal winding drums in the new example, #2:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    RM
     
  3. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #3 Jim DuBois, Sep 10, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
    Bob,

    I would think both clocks require 8 day weights. By making the drum 1/2 the diameter of the other movement the rate of drop of the weight is cut in half, but the power required to run the clock train remains the same. By eliminating the compound pulley and the return line (naturally) the 8 day weight delivers the same power to the 1/2 sized drum mechanism. I think the seller is telling a tall tale by saying it runs fine on 30 hr weights. My limited knowledge of physics says that is not so... A set of proper 8 day weights with no compounding on the smaller diameter drum movement and all will be well. Interesting how these folks just sort of made it up as they went along? Nice find and both nice clocks, and really interesting anomalies I think! Nice photos of the details too!
     
  4. novicetimekeeper

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    removing the compounding doubles the drop per rotation but also double the effect of the weight. Increasing the diameter of the winding drum increases the moment on that drive train. If the new clock has the non compounded larger diameter drum then it can run on lighter weights but it can't run for as long in the same size case. At least that's my take on it.
     
  5. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Opps, so the uncompounded clock, number 2 in your descriptions, has the large drums? I did not pay proper attention to your details you so nicely supplied, and labeled....with larger drums and no compounding it looks like the intent was to convert the clock into a 30 hr. version, no matter what the label says....I was wrongly thinking the #2 clock had the small drums. So, it would seem you have a 30 hr clock, with an 8 day label......not entirely unheard of....rug merchants were just that back in the day, as well as now. And I should offer an apology to the seller concerning his claim of the clock running on 30 hr weights. Looks like that was Jeromes and Darrow's intent all along. Even more interesting. And novice, your take is correct. I certainly had it entirely confused. Blame it on lack of coffee? Or reading comprehension? Or attention to detail....
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    It took me several reads through, but in the end I felt you might have got the drums muddled but I still wasn't sure!
     
  7. Troy Livingston

    Troy Livingston Registered User

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    What an interesting clock, I think more desirable than if was 8 day. Making a mold and casting a larger drum seems like a lot of effort to convert the 8 day movement to 30 hour. I think I have a loose movement with similar sized drums but made from wood which would seem more practical.
     
  8. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks to all who have responded for their thoughts and observations!

    My original posting may have been somewhat confusing and info overload.

    So then, just to clarify:

    Clock # 1: Jeromes and Darrow, ww, thin white metal winding barrels, pulleys on blocks, compounded 8 day weights, 8 day duration. This is the "typical" arrangement for the 4.23 movement if anyone can call these relatively scarce clocks "typical". This was the "old" example that I have owned...maybe for about 20 years at this point.

    Clock #2: Jeromes and Darrow, ww, THICK white metal winding barrels, pulleys directly over openings in top of case, not on blocks, non-compounded 30 hour weights, duration?? I suspect 30 hour!. I called this the "new" clock as I recently acquired it and this movement was quite new to me.

    Sorry about my lack of clarity.

    I would think that casting a different size white metal winding drum would be a more difficult approach to conversion? Maybe why there are few of the "typical" 4.23 movements and virtually none of these?

    Finally, when did they start using white metal winding drums for strap brass works weight driven movements? Ives again?

    Real odd ball, huh?

    RM
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I don't think your clarity was lacking, I think you did very well with your numbers thing, I think we both needed more coffee!

    What is the white metal btw, is it a casting or a turned or fabricated thing?

    I think somebody said that these clocks were made this way because wood was more available than brass, I wondered what the drums were.(and why metal rather than wood?)
     
  10. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Wood was a lot cheaper than was brass......we were still importing the majority of our brass at this time, American brass making was still a few years away, something like about 2-3 years as far as brass for clock making. The white metal may well be zinc, or pewter heavy on the tin. Zinc was more expensive than brass at this time IIRC.

    I have been investigating the drums on a number of movements of this period, or just a bit later, that have wood drums on brass works. While this was fairly common on clocks by some New Jersey tall clock makers, like Issac Browkaw and Aaron Miller, circa 1770-1800, these wooden drums were found on strap brass movements sold by John Birge and Timothy Barnes, circa 1831-1835, and a few others. Some folks contend these drums were made of lead. None that I have had were made of lead, but some may have been made with lower grade pewter that had a percentage of lead. As to these in RM's 2 clocks they really do appear to be zinc. But, that would have been expensive.

    Clock makers were looking for production cost reductions and methods of doing large quantities of interchangeable parts by the time RM's clocks were made about 1830-1833. The introduction of brass strap movements by Ives and John Birge and others quickly killed the market for the 8 day wood works clock makers. Jeromes & Darrow partnership dissolved in either late 1833 or early 1834.

    Here are some examples of zinc or pewter drums used in brass clocks of this approximate period, as well as one of wood. The first photo is a Birge Mallory, the 2nd is a John Birge, as is the 3rd.

    All this has little to do with RM's clock, but the take away is with the large drums and no compounding, his 2nd clock really does have to be a 30 hr clock.

    And these cast metal drums came into use with strap movements about 1830-1831.
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Don't the lines cut into lead? It's a lot of weight on a tiny surface area.

    Presumably pewter would be much tougher. I agree though, RM's don't look like that. I wondered about zinc but did not know if that were any cheaper. Only two or three decades before Napoleon was said to be eating off aluminium plates because it was more expensive than gold
     
  12. PatH

    PatH Registered User
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    So is the real question....which came first - the 30 hour with large drum or the 8 day with small drum and compounded? It seems that going to the smaller drum/compounding for an 8 day run would have been a logical progression, while the opposite would have been a step back. Doesn't answer any of the other questions that have been raised, but might be another consideration.

    Pat
     
  13. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #13 Jim DuBois, Sep 10, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
    One of the more common failures of these clocks is a distortion of the barrels/drums. See the following photos. I have never had any of this metal scientifically evaluated. It is far too hard to be just lead, I am pretty certain its primary component is pewter. But, pewter with lead in it has been happening for a long time and has killed people from lead poisoning from lead in eating utensils. And I suspect some of these drums have lead in them. I have machined these drums to repair or replace them when they fail. Lead is a very sticky and poor machining metal. Pewter machines quite nicely. Zinc tends to be a lot more "crumbly" when being machined. Hence my thinking the drums are primarily pewter and some may have some lead or too much lead...It is interesting as these clocks had several versions of drums in about 3 years. They finally ended up with a rolled brass drum as can be seen in the 3rd photo.

    Bob's clocks have drums that are lighter in color and do include cast in ratchet wheels, which requires a pretty robust metal. As does the 3rd photo in my previous post...cast in ratchet wheel. I suspect those to be zinc, just as you point out, softer metals would fail quickly. The softer drums as pictured below have cast brass ratchets and is part of the drum casting. The 2nd photo shows a ratchet wheel off a brass drum version of the assembly. It was soldered to the drum and arbor.
     
  14. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Pat,

    I suspect the 8 day version came first. The 30 hr clocks with 8 day labels are generally thought to be "end of model sales" or "3rd annual going out of business sales" or something similar. 8 day wood works clocks were not very successful in the market place. Roberts, Chris Bailey, and others have reported concerning the relative lack of market success of the 8 day wooden works clocks. The hypothesis is someone had left over cases but no more finished 8 day movements. So, the clocks were finished off with 30 hr movements also on hand. Now, the question remains why the metal drums? My opinion was one of the parts suppliers was making these metal drums and some were available, so they went into unfinished movements. Very similar metal drums and ratchet wheels such as those seen in RM's 2nd clock, the 30 hr model, have been found in others work, such as Thomas Barnes, John Birge (pictured in this thread) and the work of Jared Arnold (of Vermont) all about this time. Those by the way are all brass strap movement clocks, which makes the use of these drums in a wood works clock even more unusual.
     
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I think the bigger drum came second, only because it would have worked equally well for the 8 day, but the smaller drum would not have worked with the light weights for the 30 hour. If the big drum came first there would have been economy of scale just having one size.
     
  16. PatH

    PatH Registered User
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    Thanks, Jim. Seems sort of counter-intuitive based on today's attitudes toward having to wind a clock daily. Goes to show we need to know about the culture of the time rather than trying to apply current thoughts to times past. Thanks for the insight!
     
  17. Jerome collector

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    Consider me gobsmacked! Just when you think you've seen everything, something like this shows up. Although I'm no machinist, the "finish" of the large winding drum looks very similar (identical, to my eyes) as the narrower, 8-day drum. There are some aspects of RM's recent find that argue for a very close examination of the movement. It appears to me that many of the shafts and pinions are newer construction. They are much lighter in color and don't have the same "shop details" as the ones in the 8-day movement. Also, the pulleys appear to have brass rods for axles, as well as wood spacers. The wood spacers, which are not present on other 30-hr or 8-day Jerome clocks, are clearly necessary to keep the pulleys centered. But why the brass rods? Was the steel they were using too soft to span the gap without sagging? Because I'm seeing evidence of considerable movement repairs, I think everything needs to be gone over thoroughly to sort out the original from the replacement.

    Incidentally, without doing the research to back up my claim, I'm pretty sure the clock predates 1830. My recollection is that Jerome introduced the 8-day version with the dust cover in the late 1820s. The "mustache" stencils I have only seen on Jerome thin movement clocks (c. 1828) and a couple of groaners (also likely late 1820s).

    What a fascinating discovery!

    Mike
     
  18. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #18 Jim DuBois, Sep 10, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
    A bit of more information on Jeromes and Darrow 8 day wood works from Bryan Rogers and Snowden Taylors spring 1993 supplement #19 on 8 day wood works.

    "This would suggest that the 4.111 movements are late in the Jeromes & Darrow production (which ended in 1833 or 1834), and that 4.112 movements are an example of using up leftover parts. Such an idea is reinforced by the fact that movements originally of type 4.112 have been seen with 30-hour barrels slipped over the 8-day barrels, thus converting them to 30-hour movements."

    These 2 movements appear to be based on a type 4.23 from Jeromes and Darrow. Not certain how that plays into the timeline but I am still of the opinion these are late in the life of J&D as they were cleaning out and making what ever clocks they could. The 4.23 did have the small diameter metal barrel as well as the rather unusual relief around the verge pin, for those who do not have access to this supplement

    "Type 4.23 movements are attributed to Jeromes & Darrow, and have never been reported in cases with labels of other makers. However, they have some non-Jerome features, such as Terry-type movement post feet, a milled circle around the verge pin button, and lead alloy winding arbors, and it is possible they were not made by Jeromes & Darrow."
     
  19. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks again to all for their comments and observations!

    I guess without the flash, the color differences were not as noticeable to me.

    Iffen I get the time, will pull the movements again to take a closer look.

    A bit to a tangent, see this thread: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?110476-Oh-gee-whiz

    Scroll to the first posting for a picture of the E.W. Adams copy of an SB Terry strap brass movement. That has wooden winding drums.

    RM.
     
  20. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Hi, All

    A wonderful discussion on a very unusual clock- I'm really enjoying it! I do have a question, however. Perhaps I'm just wildly unobservant, but I am totally missing the point of the extra wood blocks upon which the pulley wheels are mounted on clock #1. Is it to get an extra 1/2" of drop or are they for something else? It seems to me that the clock would run just fine without them...

    Best always,

    George
     
  21. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Not sure the wood blocks for extra drop per se.

    Similar arrangement without the compounding on one of my 30 hour hollow columns.

    [​IMG]

    RM
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Well, the blocks make it easier install the pulleys in the first place as well as to get to the pulleys to repair or replace, should the need arise. But that's speaking from the vantage point of 200 years, more or less.
     
  23. Peter A. Nunes

    Peter A. Nunes Super Moderator
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    Mike, to my eye there isn't any significant new wood in the movement. The turning details on the arbors are certainly different from the other example shown, but that's not unusual. Often when Mountain laurel arbors are cleaned, they come up nice and light- that may be what happened here.
     
  24. Peter A. Nunes

    Peter A. Nunes Super Moderator
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    This is a wonderful thread, concerning two very interesting clocks, and I've been following it closely. I can't say I've seen such winding drums in any of the wooden shelf clock movements I've seen, and I've seen many. Thanks to Bob for posting it.
     
  25. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Interesting. I had this discussion by email off-line with another person and we both thought that the color differences might relate to how the wood responded to cleaning especially when one considers that the parts were not turned from the same piece of lumber and lumber was far from standardized. None the less, I will go back and examine the movements again with more pix for folks to examine.

    Thanks for your kind comment and to all who have participated in this discussion!

    RM
     
  26. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    As promised, here are some additional pix of the movement of clock #2, ie, the one with the wide white metal winding arbors.

    I've provided pix of the front plate, back plate, top of the movement, bottom of the movement, time and strike sides:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Look closely at the bottom view. Note that the time and strike side white metal winding drums are not quite the same size! Another kooky feature?

    I understand the questions about the color about the arbors. After looking at them carefully, I do think they are original and not replacements. Look at the ones into which wires have been inserted. Good "bleeding" of oxidation of the metal into the wood.

    Here's the movement "bed":

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    One can see where the movement overlaps the label with reduced exposure to atmosphere and difference in oxidation. Lines up just right with movement. Side rails with no extra holes. A bit hard to see in pix, but movement rails are "relieved" where the great wheels are. Lines up just right.

    I will post some additional pix in another posting as the G-D'ed MB won't accept all of the pix.

    RM
     
  27. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Here's the additional pix.

    This is the backboard:

    [​IMG]

    Undisturbed.

    A question was raised about the pulleys:

    [​IMG]

    The pulleys are mounted on steel (??) not brass. I think it appeared as such due to a light coating of rust. I gently steel wooled them for this pic.

    No evidence of another arrangement.

    Here's the underside of the top board under the pulleys:

    [​IMG]

    Those circular marks correspond exactly to the tops of the current weights.

    RM.
     
  28. darrahg

    darrahg Registered User
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    A Jeromes & Darrow 8-day wooden movement clock was described in a NAWCC article (April 2009 p162-164) with metal winding drums and case with raised top pulleys. It appears to be the same 8-day movement that is being discussed here.
     
  29. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thank you for providing a reference which documents another example of a clock with movement 4.23, i.e., an 8 day ww clock with white metal winding drums, large 8 day weights which are compounded with pulley's mounted up on blocks and have been reported only in cases by Jeromes' and Darrow with a sliding dust cover on the top. Here is a link to the article to which you refer: http://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/2000/articles/2009/379/379_162.pdf

    Please also see the references and links I have included in the first posting in this thread. The clock in the above article and other references corresponds to clock # 1 in this thread, albeit the case of clock #1 is stenciled. The clocks in the references and clock #1 are examples of this type of clock that have been reported previously.

    The real point of this thread is, however, clock #2. The movement in this clock has thicker white metal winding drums, runs on 30 hour size weights without compounding and the pulleys are not mounted atop blocks. The label not withstanding, this appears to be a 30 hour version of 4.23. To my knowledge, this version has not yet been reported. So it is NOT the same as the clock in the article to which you refer to nor any of the other references.

    Jerome has a history of converting 8 day ww movements to 30 hour by increasing the diameter of the winding drums. However, this has not yet, to my knowledge, been documented through the use of white metal winding drums that are thicker on the 30 hour version of a ww movement than those on the 8 day. Given the relative abundance of wood and people who could turn it, doesn't seem to make much sense. Then again, Jerome (in this instance, Noble?) did some rather atypical stuff at times.

    The other goal of this posting was to provide adequate visual information for people to hopefully be able to come to support my assertion that this is real and not a made up clock/movement.

    RM
     
  30. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    RM, Peter, and all,

    My concerns have been addressed by the additional photos. I think it looks right. I'll repeat the closing in my earlier post: "What a fascinating discovery!"

    Mike
     
  31. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks for your input!

    Still interesting stuff out there?

    RM
     
  32. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    On the new MB I cannot see the images in this post which was the original. If I right click and look at the properties they show up as 32 x 32 pixels....something changed from the original posting on the old MB.
     
  33. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    There are literally 100's of threads missing their photos so far. The last photo in my NAWCC photo file is from March 2017. Nothing more recent. So, we are not there yet.....
     
  34. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #34 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
    Since it does not seem that my pictures for this thread cannot be reinstated, I thought I would repost them myself.
    Jerome 8 d 14 A.jpg Jerome 8d 2 B.jpg

    Jerome 8 d  wide pewter 1.JPG Jerome 8 d wide pewter 4 a.JPG
    Jerome 8d 16 M.jpg Jerome 8 d wide pewter 11.JPG

    I give up. Too many pix, can't recall order.

    RM
     
  35. David 62

    David 62 Registered User
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    Nov 28, 2004
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    On the second J &D movt.is it common to see the circular machine mark on the front plate surrounding the verge mounting button?I have seen such tool marks commonly on Sam Terry movements.
    Dave
     
  36. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 15, 2004
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    Most of these pictures do seem to show up in the thread already. The only exception is the second one of the clocks with the dials removed. Let's not add confusion to this. Perhaps Tom McIntyre's solution is working bit by bit.
     
  37. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
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    Yes, that is true and one of the "mysteries" of these movements. That milled circle on the front plate surrounding the verge is as you point out a Terry feature on what is thought to be a Jerome product and found only in their cases, both carved and stenciled, with this label with that sliding "box top".

    See the Bulletin Supplement on 8 day ww movements I refer to at the beginning of this thread which discusses the 4.23 8d ww movement.

    RM
     

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