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What does this one tell us?(Early Hampden Stem-winding)

Jim Haney

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Rick,
I have have missed it but have you compared the center wheel w/pinion on these variants with regular ones?

Also, look in the Hampden Book in the material section and see if the 2 center wheels they list for this model are difference lengths
.
At first glance it just appears that it was meant to be a jewel setting drill out but maybe not and that it has some purpose but the pinion is flush with the machined area so a jewel would do no good?

Just some thought to look into
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Great point, a detailed comparison is definitely in order.

I'll do a breakdown of two that need cleaned and measure everything. Sometime in the next week or so.

Material catalogs are also a good idea, although I did look in the 1915 online and didn't find any related parts.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Updated list for Hampden Model two Hollow center pinion.

75138. Railway private label "standard"
75257. J.C. Perry, pictured above
75344. H&A book pg 17 private label
75584 Railway
75592. Railway. Shown above
75766 Railway
75783. Railway
100318 Alex weed (15 jewel Gilt)
100609 h&a book p.l. studley
100647 studley shown above
100695 studley
100753 studley
100812 studley p.l.

There may actually be Woolworths with hollow center pinions, and they fall right where I suspected. Somewhere in 100,000-100,500.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Jackpot! Thanks Kent and Ed!

I was digging around in old threads when this post by Kent came scrolling by. It details their observations in one of the hollow center pinion runs, including a consecutive "standard" to mine!

Please not that the "Superior street" movement at the end is not hollow center pinion, and I have seen this watch and it matches the description of a "Perry" grade.model 2, Nickel, 15 jewels and Adjusted with blued flat screws. It also carries a SS and circle, Arabic R5 script "Webb C. Ball Cleveland O" dial. It was also in a glass back... And it's gorgeous.

I've sent a note to Bob, but I suspect that he's been following this anyway.

Meanwhile, Ed and I have the following model 2, 15-jewel, adjusted, nickel, lever-set (except as noted) movements listed in our data base (which includes those listed in The Hampden Watch Co., NAWCC Special Order Supplement #1, J. Hernick and R. Arnold, NAWCC, Columbia, PA, 1997). All of these are Railway grade or Perry grade (take your pick for the private label movements).

75,026 - J.C. Perry
75,071 - J.C. Perry (not noted as being adjusted)
75,128 - J.C. Perry
75,131 - Cowell Bros.
75,139 - Standard
75,165 - Rwy
75,221 - J.C. Perry
75,244 - Perry (not marked "Adjusted")
75,317 - J.C. Perry
75,344 - Osgood & Chapin
75,382 - Perry
75,393 - J.C. Perry
75,441 - Rwy
75,480
75,499 - Perry (not marked "Adjusted")
75,547 - Rwy
75,555 - Rwy
75,576 - Rwy
75,606 - D.W. Smith
75,697 - Lawrence
75,806 - Rwy
75,813 - Rwy
75,820 - Rwy
75,882 - Rwy
75,887 - Rwy
76,000 - Superior St. (not noted as being nickel or lever-set)

In Hernick and Arnold's book, these are followed by the following 18-size movements. Ed and I don't have any records in this immediate serial number range (up to and including 76,623) as they aren't a high enough grade to be interesting to us and there isn't enough time to record everything:
76,135 - HG1K - 7J - Unadjusted
76,528 - HG1K - 15J
76,623 - HG1K
76,716 - HN2L - Perry, Adjusted
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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This is my current list of observations for hollow center pinions that have been seen in pictures or in person. Added new ones this week.

75138. Railway private label "standard"
75257. J.C. Perry, pictured above
75344. H&A book pg 17 private label
75584 Railway
75633 Toronto watch co movement dial
75592. Railway. Shown above
75654 W.D. Hawley, Syracuse NY
75766 Railway
75783. Railway
100318 Alex weed (15 jewel Gilt)
100609 h&a book p.l. studley
100647 studley shown above
100695 studley
100753 studley
100812 studley p.l.

Coupled with Kent and Ed's observations, we can start to see the various runs! I was going to include the data from the H&A book, but it looks like it's already in their list.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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There may actually be Woolworths with hollow center pinions, and they fall right where I suspected. Somewhere in 100,000-100,500
This is Chester Woolworth, #100352

Hollow center pinion, early setting lever and male winding arbor.

Notice the signature is Chester Woolworth!.. The most fascinating part.. it's 16,200 bph!!

At first I thought maybe this completes the set, but I can't say that. There are different movement signatures to look for. Adjusted/unadjusted varieties. Who knows what will show up next!

IMG_20200227_192956679.jpg IMG_20200227_193024183.jpg IMG_20200227_192847445.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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100517
Chester Woolworth, adjusted
IMG_20200504_174109594.jpg
Single sunk block letter dial, pull out lever. I think this could even be its original case. The washers are there because the screws have cut the rim too deep. Im not trying to convince anyone, but I think it's a nice original 4oz case.
IMG_20200504_174144355_HDR.jpg


This one is exciting because of its features. Notice the one in my previous post has the swing out lever and male winding arbor... This one does not! It has the hollow center pinion.

That screw in the rocker arm is going to cause me a headache isn't it, haha.
IMG_20200504_185135682.jpg

Here is a better shot of the back of the center arbor. Movent isn't quite as nice as the one in the last post that I picked up from Fred, but it's in pretty good shape and running. Unfortunately someone fingered up by the index.... Sometimes that comes out... So I'm crossing my fingers.
IMG_20200504_185209234.jpg

This is a great find for me. It is the second hollow center pinion I have with the later lever and winding arbor. They didn't even finish out their early movements before changing to the other style. Notice the two styles of "Springfield Mass" on this one it's plain Jane... The previous post is nicely engraved!

My previous estimated cut off for chester was sitting at 100500, so this pushes that number back and lowers the estimated number of Theo Studleys a bit.

Thanks for checking it out, have a good day and I hope everyone is happy and healthy.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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100318
Alex weed Stanford Conn.
Pat Appd For
Adjusted

This is another that I've been hoping would pop up for sale, and very happy to get ahold of it!

Chester woolworth grade, hollow center pinion, pivoted setting lever.

It's a treat to have two really early Hampdens for Alex weed, both moderately uncommon in their own right.

This one has the custom nickel barrel bridge and matching dial. Hard to pass that up.

Unfortunately someone made some custom engraving while recasing (I assume) but it's none the less interesting. So... here's my newest addition to the early Hampden stemwinders.

IMG_20200615_205140541.jpg IMG_20200615_172129941_HDR.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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75296
"J.C. Perry" grade, model two
Hollow center pinion, but it has the normal female winding arbor and pull out lever.

Movement and dial signed for Benjamin & Ford, New Haven Conn.

IMG_20200703_170336397_HDR~2.jpg
IMG_20200703_170703999~2.jpg


The movement is 16,200bph, blue screws and a Gilt barrel, all matching the J.C. Perry description on the time.

It's only 39 serial numbers higher than the J.C. Perry marked movement posted earlier in the thread, and has the newer style winding arbor and lever.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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So what does this one tell us:???:? Haha.

Friends don't let friends switch Hampden Dials for New York Dials!

75117 Rail-Way
Hollow center pinion, pivoting setting lever and male winding arbor.

There was no way I could let this slide by without picking it up. Anyone ever see a Rail-Way stemwinder before?

IMG_20201017_191016862.jpg IMG_20201017_191050356.jpg IMG_20201017_191250635.jpg
I believe it originally had rose gold screws. It washes off over the years, leaving what appear to be dull steel. Someone tried installing some yellow gold screws and they just don't look right. Maybe someday I'll find a way to make the rose gold color.

Trying to estimate how many of these could be marked Rail-Way is completely futile at this point. Under 100? Probably less. I own 75138, which is only 21 serial numbers away from this one. It is also a railway grade but it's private label. The Hampden blue book lists 75128 as a J.C. Perry right in between the two railways! So... as sporadic as observations seem right now... I just can't estimate anything.

In the serial number range 75,000-75,099 we have hollow center pinion Railways and Perry's.

I'm looking forward to finding more variations of each.


75084 has also been added to the Pocket Watch Database. A lovely J.C. Perry private label movement not marked adjusted! So another variation!
Hampden Grade J.C. Perry Watch #75084 - 18s, 15j - Uploaded by ward7109

Thanks ward7109!



 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Here are a couple better pictures of 75117. While looking through this thread the movement looked terrible. It was hastily posted last time out of excitement. Darn thing was expensive and I didn't know it existed till the auction popped up.

It's been cleaned up now, and two of the badly mismatched screws replaced... Refilled the engraving. I've become a leave it alone sort of guy, so didn't want to really get it back to new, just get rid of the awful screws that bothered me and make it presentable enough. Don't look at the cap jewel.

20210308_220541.jpg 20210308_220709.jpg

You just looked at the cap jewel, didn't you? It is what it is. Ugh...


I also just wanted an opportunity to bump this thread up and see if anyone has come across anything recently pertaining to these. Still collecting serials and observations. Complete watches, movements, parts movements, parts of movements... Anything with a serial on it can help.

Thanks and have a good one!
 

johnbscott

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Great to see a pic of a real live "Rail-Way". No sign of the Hampden name on the movement, I notice.

I always assumed that "Rail-Way" came before "Railway". However, a comparison of your 75117 "Rail-Way" and my 69105 "Railway" (post #35) indicates the opposite.

It seems as though "Rail-Way" was meant to be a brand, rather than a grade name.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Hi John,

Just looking at Rail-Way obs, there are only a handful in my list, but found in these groups of serial numbers. (keywind)
52401-52500
57801-57900

This one posted above, being a stemwinder, is the only one I've seen as Rail-Way.

Instead of thinking of the serial runs as consecutive, think of Stemwind and keywind runs happening concurrently, or at least they were trying to implement stemwinding.

In the 75,000 range where these (Perry, J.C. Perry, Rail-Way and Railway) Nickel hollow center pinion watches sit, the first ones like 75117 have a male stem, pivot lever and marked Rail-Way. 75138 is the same way except it is a private label instead of Rail-Way

Following this, 75783 is a "Railway" and it still has the hollow center pinion, but a normal pull out lever and female winding arbor.

Adding this information together suggests that the stemwinders follow the same pattern as the keywinders, just in much smaller numbers.

So, I believe that 75117 was started a few years earlier than 69105, even if it wasn't finished for a few years. Maybe 1875ish?? I don't know.

The earliest "Railway" in have seen is 57901-58000 (keywinders)

For what it's worth I believe the same applies to the Railway, J.C. Perry, Chester Woolworth and Theo E. Studley hollow pinion stemwinders and their keywind counterparts.

It's certainly an interesting part of Hampden that I hope to explore much further.
 
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johnbscott

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Rick, I certainly commend and encourage your on-going research

Have you noticed that the "Rail Way"movement engraving on page 15 of Ehrhardt's American Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide (Book 2) shows a serial number 57917?
 

johnbscott

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It is a reproduction of an engraving from an 1878 advertisement. The movement shown is key wound, by the way.

The same advertisement page includes engravings of 3/4 plate KW Homer Foot 4789, full plate KW Theo E Studley 43466 and full plate KW J C Perry 48760.

We all know that serial numbers in catalog engravings may or may not be accurate, but I offer the information, for whatever it may be worth.
 
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Nathan Moore

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Wow, he really cranked out the books, that's one I don't have. Thank you for pointing those out.

Is it a scan of a watch or an illustration?
While not identical to the one that appears in the Ehrhardt book, this advertisement from the October 1878 issue of The Jewelers' Circular and Horological Review features the same content and illustrated cuts.

Hampden-Watch-Co-Ad-JewCir-Oct1878.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Thank you Nathan,

After Johns post yesterday, I ordered a couple more books, haha... But... This page is great!

Analyzing this, there are no "Model 2s". And the named grades have a full signature.

But we know in the 1880 S.F. Meyers catalog (a little over a year later) they were selling quick train model 1&2s and "Lafayette" which is basically their new gentleman's watch grade that seems to take the place of unadjusted Perry and also adding an 11 jewel variation. Watches are listed by their shortened names in the catalog.

In my experience, with the exception of the Railway, all of the Full signature short cock 18s watches are slow train in both stem and key.

Something is amiss, and I aim to figure it out. Lots of changes happened very quickly.

on a lighter note, look at this beauty!

Screenshot_20210313-075018.png

A full signature, short cock, keywind Theo E Studley has not crossed my path yet. It would surely be sitting here if it had. Very cool.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Found a new variation for the movement collection.

This is #100229. Woolworth unadjusted
male winding arbor and swing out lever. Full signature. Numbers all match. Dewey will notice that's it's been restaffed at some point! :) The roller jewel is 90 degrees from what seems to be original.

Nice movement. The dial is a little past it's glory days, but a correct early dial.

20210827_225602~2.jpg 20210827_225651~2.jpg 20210827_225717~2.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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75633 Railway grade
Movement and Dial marked for Toronto Watch Co.
Hollow center pinion, female winding arbor and regular pull out lever.

movement has some haze and scratches... Dial is really nice and the minute hand is replaced. These are a strange hole size and hard to match.


20210907_192412_2.jpg 20210907_193225_2.jpg
 

johnbscott

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Rick, yes, an interesting and very nice watch. Very special dial, as you say, substituted minute hand (but also a nice one).
 

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