What does this one tell us?(Early Hampden Stem-winding)

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Greg Frauenhoff, Jul 24, 2007.

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  1. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    A rather ordinary looking low grade movement, but does it have any unusual features? Do they tell us anything interesting?

    http://members.aol.com/gfrauen/hampdensw1.jpg
     
  2. watchfriends

    watchfriends Registered User

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    cool hairspring holder :thumb: goldscrews i think, nice balance cock..... but one repaired jewel... good work
     
  3. RON in PA

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    Early stem winder? Who was mister Studley? Where are the mean time screws?
     
  4. watchfriends

    watchfriends Registered User

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    good but i think thats the watchmaker regulation? Ancre escapment?
     
  5. Luca

    Luca Registered User

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    Looks sort of transitional as you often see that type of balance cock (w/ flat hairspring) on series I (keywinds) but this has elements of series II with the stem winding. Is the balance cock original?
     
  6. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Isn't the name in the Hampden serial number range more typically just "Studley" with the full "Theo E. Studley" name seen more often in the New York Watch Co. serial number range?

    I think the male stem, early lever-set mechanism, and thick center wheel pinion are interesting features.

    Fred
     
  7. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Balance screws look gold to me as well, but it wouldn't want to swear that they are without testing somehow.

    None of the jewels look to have been repaired. Which one are you refering to?

    Yes, any early stemwinder.

    Theo. L. Studley was an officer (and presumably a stockholder) for the New York Watch Co. at one time and had a NY grade name after him. Hampden carried on with some of the NY grade names.

    No mean time screws, but it may have never had them. A mvt close to this one in s/n and probably of the same grade also does not have mean time screws.

    Yes, lever set, but anything uncommon about the lever?

    Balance bridge and balance wheel are original to the mvt.

    The Hernick and Arnold Hampden book has a little info on this type of mvt, but they don't discuss it much.

    Anything odd at the center?

    Any guesses about jeweling? (I haven't had the dial off on this one yet, but I did check the similar one close in s/n and I would guess that this Studley is jeweled the same.)
     
  8. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Fred, you posted as I was preparing my reply.

    Yes, the full signature "Theo. E. Studley" is uncommon for Hampden period watches.

    Yes, the center pinion is thick, whcih means?
     
  9. watchfriends

    watchfriends Registered User

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    http://www.nawcc-mb.com/pictures//file-hampdensw1.jpg

    in german the watchmakers sometimes used this "new" jewels but that is a american watch so "i don't know". Ordinarily that must be a natural stone
     
  10. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Hello,

    The circle is a decorative engraving on the plate around the small hole for the 3rd wheel pinion. It may have served the function of an "oil-guard" as well (prevent oil from running onto the train plate). There is no missing or replaced jewel.
     
  11. watchfriends

    watchfriends Registered User

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    okay :) If i see an other movement like this i will believe :cool:
     
  12. HenryB

    HenryB Registered User

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    Greg:

    I have it identified in my database as a Studley 9 Jewel.
    Be very interested in your jewel count, as the Hampden Watch Book by Arnold/Herrick only identify 9 and 11 Jeweled Studleys.

    Although the Hampden Watch book identify the grade as "Studley and Theo E. Studley", the Theo E. Studley could have well been a PL.

    Or for that matter, both the Studley and Theo E. Studley could have been PL's, just do not know.:?|

    Incidently, I have looked at over 5,000 Hampdens on ebay over the last year. First time I have seen a Studley of any sort or marking.

    Thanks for showing it. :clap:
     
  13. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Henry,

    The grade "Theo. E. Studley" is among those shown in an 1878 Hampden ad. It was also used as a grade name by the NY Watch Co., Hampden's immediate predecessor. So it's not a private label.

    The other mvt that I have near to this one (#100812 or so) is a private label and has 11 jewels. I will check out this Studley later tonight and report on the jewel count.
     
  14. terry hall

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    watchfriends,

    if this was a 7 jewel movement, all of the 'settings' would look like the one with the arrow...

    they would be unjeweled pivots...

    you asked about the lever...this is not a conversion to stem wind and lever is it?? :?|

    thick center pinion = sweep second:???:? (just a guess ... ) edjamakateme
     
  15. Luca

    Luca Registered User

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    It doesn't have an Abbott's does it?

    And thanks for posting - interesting stuff.
     
  16. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    Fat center pinion = Bank vault watch:???:??
    -Cort
     
  17. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    I wouldn't consider it a conversion from key wind to stem wind, but simply an early (the first?) version of a Hampden stem winder. The design may have started at NY, but I haven't seen it used on any New York 18s full plate mvts (all such that I've seen are Key Winders (this doesn't include the 3/4 plate mvts of course)), but one never knows what is lurking out there in watch land.

    The large end of the "center pinion" is actually the end of the arbor for the minute hand which runs through a hollow center wheel staff. A similar design was used by E. Howard and Lancaster and maybe other makers.

    Hernick and Arnorld show a good close-up of the center wheel assembly in their excellent book, but they have no other discussion about it that I came across.

    I removed the dial and the watch has 11 jewels (2 pairs for the 4th and escape pinions).

    Some old watches (even just movements) never cease to amaze me.
     
  18. Tom Huber

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    Greg, I have a movement like this that I just bought from Fred Hanson. The info on this type of early movement is on page 17 of Hernick and Arnold's book. The center wheel is known as a "hollow center wheel. It has the extra large arbor. The cannon pinion is also quite different. The setting lever is the swing type of lever. These must have been an early proto type for stemwind movements.

    Tom
     
  19. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Tom,

    I would call these "early stemwind model" (perhaps even Hampden's first production stem wind model), but not a prototype since there are a number of them known. From H & A are #s 75344 and 100609. I have #s 100695 and 100812.

    What # is yours?
     
  20. HenryB

    HenryB Registered User

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    Greg
    The only advertisement for Hampden I have access to is the Hampden 1878 advertisement, shown on page 32 of the Hampden Watch Book.

    The Theo E. Studley shown is this advertisement is No. No. 43466, and it is under the Caption of a New York Watch Co. Product, prior to them changing the name to Hampden.

    Is the advertisement you are referencing ?
     
  21. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Henry,

    Yes, that is the Hampden ad I refered to.
     
  22. Tom Huber

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    Hi Greg, The SN is 75,138. I've posted a pic. When one looks at the watch, the balance cock does not appear to match, but have checked it and the SN matches.

    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Tom,

    Neat watch.

    I can't quite make out the name on the train plate. Can you let me know what it is?
     
  24. Tom Huber

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    Hi Greg, The name is "Standard".

    Tom
     
  25. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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  26. Rick Hufnagel

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    I have been keeping an eye out for these hollow shaft early stemwinders, and have been able so collect two so far. A Theo E Studley, and a J.C. Perry.

    I haven't found any information or leads as to what these movements are all about, I believe what is said above, they are just early stemwinders. I can't explain the hollow pinion or full signature at all.

    Both of my movements are course train, have swing out early setting levers, and male stems. They oddly have the full signature for the grade name instead of just "Studley" or "Perry".

    I haven't located any other grades besides these two, Tom Hubers above seems to look more like a railway than a Perry, however, judging by the jewel settings.

    This thread is all that pops up when searching and i was hoping to add to it instead of creating a new thread.

    Does anyone have any other hollow center pinion Hampdens? I would certainly appreciate some pictures of some!

    I have to say I really enjoy these movements, and would love to learn more about them. So far from looking at serial numbers from the Hampden book, I suspect the railway also had an early model built like this, but I can't prove it yet. They are intermixed with Perry's.

    Here's my two, both really exceptional running movements.

    J. C. Perry # 75257 15 jewel, adjusted
    Theo E. Studley #100647. 11 jewel

    IMG_20190624_201112851.jpg IMG_20190624_201100745.jpg IMG_20190624_201306568.jpg
     
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  27. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    My 18s PW LS HC Hampden Railway grade watch 75592 of 1878 has a hollow centre pinion.

    Hamp 18s 75592 movt 1.jpeg Hamp 18s 75592 dial.jpeg
     
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  28. Rick Hufnagel

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    Awesome, I knew there had to be Railways as well! Thank you
     
  29. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    The assembly of the centre pinion is quite tricky but, once correctly done, the watch is a very fine timekeeper, even after all those years.
     
  30. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    Strangely, enough, my 18s KW KS OF Hampden Railway grade 69105 of 1877 does not have a hollow centre pinion. It is Model 1. (The hollow pinion watch 75592 is Model 2.)
     
  31. Rick Hufnagel

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    That was another question I had,if the hollow pinion is restricted to only model twos.

    The studley I didn't have any problem pushing the center shaft and cannon pinion together, the Perry needed a few taps on the staking set with a stump to support the bottom of the shaft. It was a bit tricky to put the plates together since there's no center pinion to guide it.

    I also see your hands are.very.nice. I had to get creative with mine, I have to find some sets with really tiny minute hand holes. Or make some bushings I suppose.

    I like the wavy damaskeen. And your gold jewel settings! Really nice movement!
     
  32. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    Rick, you are right about the hands. They were difficult to find, it took a lot of searching.

    I think of those watches as being New York Watch Co, really. For all I know they could have been started by New York and finished by Hampden. Anyway, they are certainly pre-Dueber Massachusetts watches. Their design was quite advanced.
     
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  33. Rick Hufnagel

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    In theory, at that time, the development of a full plate stemwinder could definitely have been a priority for the New York Watch Co.

    There is certainly no clear cut line in New York to Hampden production, as demonstrated by Jim Haneys earliest hampdens thread.

    Looking at the other watches at the time from different watch companies, New Yorks lack of a full plate stemwinder was a shortcoming, and these could have been the answer. There's no proof, its just ideas. Maybe one day an old advertisement or booklet will come to light and explain some things.
     
  34. Rick Hufnagel

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    One last question for your Railway... Is it a quick train?? I was a bit surprised when I found the Perry was not a quick train watch.
     
  35. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    Both 69105 and 75592 are quick train.

    I certainly share your fascination in relation to the early Hampdens and that is what motivated me to expend quite a bit of effort to restore them. The wonderful performance of the watches justifies that expenditure of effort and I have learned a lot in the process. I agree with your thoughts about the possible evolution.

    I am adding in a couple of images of 69105.

    Hamp 18s 69105 case.jpeg Hamp 18s 69105 movt 2.jpeg
     
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  36. Rick Hufnagel

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    Very nice sir! Thank you

    So we have the Railway, J.C. Perry, and Theo. E. Studley.

    Is there any other grades out there with a hollow center pinion?? Does someone have a model 1 with one?
     
  37. Rick Hufnagel

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    I had the pleasure today of not only examining Tom Huber's watch above, but adding it to my collection! And of course, it's always a pleasure to see Tom as well, especially when he's giving a great presentation for chapter 37.

    So the verdict? This watch is a Railway grade, serial number 75138. Gold jewel settings and Gilt trimmed regulator and screws. Private Label marked "Standard". Hampden watch co. Double sunk dial. Quick train. Hollow center pinion and it's living in a Nickel display case.

    A wonderfull, top of the line movement for it's day!

    IMG_20191006_140952329.jpg IMG_20191006_140816329_HDR.jpg
     
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  38. LloydB

    LloydB Registered User

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    Erhardt, in his 'Encyclopedia... of American Pocket watches'
    (1982 p143) identifies 'Standard' as a PL for Mermod Jacard,
    St. Louis
    . However, only Gilt Hampden examples [HG2L] were
    cited.

    Here's another M & J 'Standard', a Hamilton 929: (post #205)
    Hamilton Private Labels, Please add to the list

    Your example could be about 2nd year Hampden production,
    1878? I find Model 1 (kw) examples in nickel, with the same
    or similar damaskeening, very interesting. There's no shortage
    of rather later stemwind examples.
     
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  39. Rick Hufnagel

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    No there's definitely not a shortage of normal production railway stemwinders.

    I don't have enough information to even guess how many of these were made with the hollow center wheel pinion..

    The more interesting thing is the Perry above, being slow train. Also, there's an example of a normal model 2 perry on pwdb, with a lower serial number. Strange.

    Interesting indeed!

    If you look in the ol' Hampden blue book, you'll find an ad for Mermod Jaccard on page 110, detailing their line of movements. The Standard being offered in key and stem wind.

    I missed out on a MJ&co railroad watch labeled movement recently. It appeared to be an 11 jewel nickel. Grade 31. Haha

    The odd thing is that the ad is dated April 2 1881, and the ad clearly shows two long cock new York style movements. The "Goodman King" and the " C.F. Mathey"

    Possibly unloading leftover new York stock?
     
  40. LloydB

    LloydB Registered User

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    Your 75138 is marked 'Adjusted"... is its hollow
    center pinion potentially related to adjustment?
    (Inviting ridicule for the suggestion.)

    Clearly HWCo was supplying PL needs and
    adjusted movements relatively early in their
    serial #'s. (1878) But they're also providing
    NOS or 'finished later' NYWCo material, as
    has been observed for decades.

    It's still hard to focus in on what would be
    actual 'new' HWCo production, but surely
    there's no question about 75138?

    More thoughts on that, to come.
     
  41. Rick Hufnagel

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    Well, I think the early Springfields, and grade 30s are real Hampdens. Right out of the gate you see early runs of Springfield grade watches.

    I don't think the hollow center pinion has anything to do with adjustment.. as the Theo Studley above is an unadjusted movement. It was just a short lived design. Early model twos. Just don't know how early.

    I believe my Perry above being slow train is an indication of these being started by NYWCo. Normal production Hampden model 2 Perry's are quick train.

    My Perry keywinder is slow train as well. It's just under the 58,000 mark.

    I dunno. For the most part, it's all speculation. However, It does look like Mermod and Jaccard bought a pile of Leftover New York Watches to sell, haha.
     
  42. Rick Hufnagel

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    Ooooo boy this one is exciting!
    Railway serial number 75783

    First of all just start with a look at it cased. You can see the center arbor, so I knew it was a hollow center pinion. Other than that.. I didn't understand how it could be stuck in a silverine case without a screw holding in a female stem. There were no pictures of the setting lever.

    Well... Popped it out of the case and it has a pull out lever, on top of that It has a normal winding arbor that accepts a male stem. Now it's getting interesting!

    Once the dial is off, you can see its set up exactly like a normal production model two. The setting lever is exactly the same as a standard.model two.. I examined them closely. You can still see the original cutout from where the odd early lever would have been. It has been ground out a bit... But the way it was done looks like a file, and not wear marks from an original lever.. but that's just my opinion.

    Look at the damaskeen. This is no early damaskeen pattern. As a.matter of fact, it's quite unique to what I've seen so far. The background swirl is much like the lafayettes, but the decorative circle on the inside is just really interesting.

    Anyways two conclusions... Since this is the latest hollow center pinion railway I've seen so far... It is possible maybe it was finished later than the others, the damaskeen and winding arbor and setting mechanism reflect that..

    Or..... Someone did a bunch of work on this and swapped the parts out, sometime between 1878ish and now..

    The only thing to do would be to keep on collecting information and examples and see what turns up.

    Another interesting thing, look at the back of the dial... It's under the glaze.
    The numbers do not match up, but 794 and 783 are close enough together where I wouldn't think twice about it, especially with all the other parts they were obviously using up.

    Anyways.. I know this probably isn't the most exciting subject for most people , but I quite enjoy it, and presented all the information I have. Any questions, comments, concerns, anything at all please yell. Let me know what you think!

    if you have one of these with a hollow center pinion, please post some pictures. Whole watches, movements only, parts movements, parts of movements, haha anything.

    IMG_20191031_160617347.jpg IMG_20191031_160917771.jpg IMG_20191031_160512307.jpg IMG_20191031_161924868.jpg IMG_20191031_161414689.jpg IMG_20191031_161439118.jpg IMG_20191031_164957814.jpg
     
  43. Rick Hufnagel

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    #43 Rick Hufnagel, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    So far this is every hollow center pinion I have noted

    75138. Railway private label "standard"
    75257. J.C. Perry, pictured above
    75344. H&A book pg 17 private label
    75592. Railway. Shown above
    75783. Railway
    100609 h&a book p.l. studley
    100647 studley shown above
    100695 studley
    100812 studley p.l.

    Here is 100812 shown by Greg Frauenhoff

    Dueber-Hampden Private Label Watches

    He also posted 100695, and I can't for the life of me find the link right now.

    As of now the railway 75783 is the only one with a pull out lever and female winding arbor.

    75138 is the only one with a double sunk dial, and although I really like it... I find it very suspicious.
     
  44. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Neat watch. Thanks for the pics.
     
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  45. Rick Hufnagel

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    Thanks Greg, if you happen to ever come across your original pictures from this thread... It would be great to see. I know that's probably a crazy request of a movement photo from 12 years ago.. but it can't hurt to ask! Haha
     
  46. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    Does 69105 count (shown above)?
     
  47. Rick Hufnagel

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    John,
    69105 counts as an absolutely fantastic watch. As a model 1 railway, it is the king of early Hampdens! I admire your watch quite allot, especially since it's one of two keywind grades I need to complete my set of Hampden Keywinders.

    My list above I just included the ones we've found with a hollow center pinion, like the example you own, 75592!

    Sorry I should have explained the list better, I just re-read my post.
     
  48. johnbscott

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    Thanks, Rick, that explains matters.

    I am amazed that the KW Railway grade Hampden watches seem to be so scarce amongst our fraternity. It did take much longer (some years) than I expected to find mine, but I am working with the disadvantage of distance.

    As to the hollow pinion, from my experience with 75592, I think the watches that do not have it are better off without it!

    I am happy that you are so enthusiastically continuing this quest. I certainly share your admiration for these fairly early Massachusetts watches.
     
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  49. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Oct 25, 2018
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    I would say Hampden thought the same, as they only seem specific to 2 short serial runs!

    I am as well. I can hardly find pictures of any! I've havent seen one for sale yet.

    I have been putting off an email I should have wrote a while back, that will hopefully shed a little more light on the subject. I think I'll write that email now that I have a few examples and serial numbers. I wanted to have a base for the research and not just sending an email to the man that wrote the Hampden book saying "hey these are neat, what do you know". Now I can at least talk about it with a little base of knowledge after collecting a few, and tearing them down.
     
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  50. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    It's a great looking watch Rick.


    Rob
     
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