What do you make of this fake?

[Allan C. Purcell]

Today a fake watch I bought turned up. Now, why would I buy a fake watch? It all started when I looked at the case, which to me looked to me very much like an English case, and a nice hunter case at that. So I then followed the photographs to the movement. The first look gave me the feeling it could be American. After all, it was written on the dial Non-Magnetic. Then it happened, I saw the escapement, it has a pinwheel escapement. So I dropped it like a hot potato.

It worried me though, all night, so I took another look, and another look, I then put it on my maybe list. A couple of days later I found out no one had made a bid.
So what, I had to know more about this watch, so I bought it. only took three days from France.

The metal of the case is unknown, though it is gold plated, so thin, you get the feeling you could blow it off. The only marks on the inner plate are the letter L
and the number 533. No number on the watch plates. The case though would or could be taken as English with another movement.

You then look at the movement as a whole, and there are American indications, the plates are gilded with gold, and the layout does give you the feeling of an American watch company. (A little bit) Then you notice there are no jewels.

So we reach the escapement, to be expected it was not running more than a few seconds, probably laying a draw somewhere for years. Though remembering
the pin palette needs plenty of oil, I dipped a small swob in oil and let it drop onto the escape wheel, and that was the answer, it´s been running for two hours now and lost about three minutes in that time, BUT IT RUNS.



The English-looking case?



The gold-plated case.



The only thing that was not Non-magnetic is the dial. When I took out my magnet the watch followed me around the room.

Nice hands though.



The marks on the inner case, when enlarged the L could be a trade mark



The Pin Palet escapement and the way the movement is held in the case looks American.

So to end this, it´s, I think a fake made to look like an American watch. I hope you have the same pleasure I had with this watch.

Does anyone have an idea which European country faked it.?

Allan

PS. When I picked it up after writing this, It Stopped.

.

 

[musicguy]

Moving Swiss watch to European section



Rob

 

[musicguy]

So to end this, it´s, I think a fake American watch

I don't think it looks like a fake American watch. It looks
Swiss. Even has A&R on the balance cock. Show me an American
PW that looks like it?






Rob

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Rob, I am not saying it looks like a real American watch, I am saying it is made to fool the unwary, to think it is an American watch. People in those days were not as educated as we are today or should we say informed today. Plus the A&R there is also S&F. It could just as well fool people into thinking it is an English watch, It matters not in which section you put it in, it's just a piece of watch history, plus how do you know it is Swiss? Perhaps you can tell us.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I disagree.

American who bought good watches were extremely well informed. The bought movement and cases separately and the movement descriptions were thorough and factual.

Also the American generally preferred nickel finished rather than gilt movements, although both were common.

This is a very cheap watch very probably exactly what it says it is a cheap non magnetic watch, intended to short term use probably in a area with a lot of magnets.

It is built on a Swiss ebauche.

I think it was a disposable watch intended for wear by either a person of low income or someone with a fine watch who did not want to risk wearing that watch in high magnetic environment.

The problem with my theory is that Allen wrote that "It followed him with his magnet. A more detailed explanation my cure my confusion.

The balance spring looks to be palladium. How does it respond to a magnet?

It probably served its function and lived its allotted life. To me it is poor worn out worker and not a criminal.

 

[musicguy]

I am saying it is made to fool the unwary, to think it is an American watch.

plus how do you know it is Swiss? Perhaps you can tell us.

The case is not American
The Movement Layout is not an American style
The hairspring stud is not in the same
place as American watches. It has no branding
on it whatsoever which is also not very American.

Hairspring stud not American and Advance Retard

Rob

 

[Chris Radek]

There are a lot of features on the movement that are very Swiss. The mainspring arbor has a nut with two holes instead of a screw. There's a pin for the cannon pinion that sticks through the center wheel. The hairspring stud is fixed to the cock with a friction-fit pin. The balance cap jewel is held by screws pointing up from underneath screwing into the steel setting. The dial is held by screws with a flat on them (you can see one next to the balance cock) that turn to hold the dial foot.

I'd never say never, but each of these features is "rarely or never" found on an American movement. Taken together they paint a clear picture that the movement is Swiss.

From the outside it's much less clear - the case and dial and hands don't tell such a clear story (to me at least) and I can see why you thought you might find an American movement in there.

 

[roughbarked]

I disagree with the OP. It basically has nothing about it that purports to be American.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

There are some misunderstandings here, at no time did I say there was an American movement in there, I knew before I bought it, that it was a European watch.(I said so) It was more than likely sold in Europe, probably in France, where I got it from. Though there are points on the watch that indicate the styles of watches in England and America. Jon, I was making fun of the spring, it stuck like a limpid on the magnet. There is nothing on that watch other than the dial, that is non-magnetic. Plus I read the catalogues for American watches too, they are full of lies. I started this as a fake watch, it should be read as such.

 

[bruce linde]

There are some misunderstandings here, at no time did I say there was an American movement in there, I knew before I bought it, that it was a European watch.(I said so) It was more than likely sold in Europe, probably in France, where I got it from. Though there are points on the watch that indicate the styles of watches in England and America. Jon, I was making fun of the spring, it stuck like a limpid on the magnet. There is nothing on that watch other than the dial, that is non-magnetic. Plus I read the catalogues for American watches too, they are full of lies. I started this as a fake watch, it should be read as such.

i'm not a watch guy... but my reading of the thread is that you suggested that there were several things that felt american about it. everyone else seems to disagree... and even pointed out specifically non-american features. if i'm reading correctly, chris went further and pointed out specific swiss features.

it seems a bit of a stretch to me to go from 'felt american' to concluding that it's a fake designed to look american and fool people wanting american watches.

to quote sheryl crow: if it makes you happy....

 

[roughbarked]

or... whatever floats your boat.

 

[MrRoundel]

I'm definitely in the "it's Swiss" camp for the reasons well described by musicguy and Chris Radek . The finishing on the winding wheels is pretty nice, and the gilding seems to have held up well, FWIW. Oh, and it doesn't show any signs of poor workmanship during servicing on it. That's always a good thing. Somebody took good care of it. Cheers.

 

[roughbarked]

Then you notice there are no jewels.

Well, there are at least five.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

So let's try again, I do not know of any European watches that are held in place by two screws, it is for me American. I do know that export watches from Europe used the A&R and S&F. Plus the style of the case is what a buyer sees first, and it is definitely in the English style. Though the metal below the gold plating can be lifted with a magnet. Yet the dial is signed Non-magnetic- which points to America-even when they were made in Switzerland. Most of the Non-Magnetic watches I have seen were a combined effort between American factories and two or three Swiss workshops. (The Swiss did not have factories then) My story was and is my impression when I first looked at the watch. Now some people on this board have tried to make it look like I had started an anti-American war. People who have read my threads on American Watches will know I am fascinated by American watches. I think some of you should read my first post again. Plus when I wrote it I had the watch for about two hours.

Well, there are at least five.

Just out of interest, roughbarked, where are these five jewels?

Just remembered it is a stem set for the hands, another that points to American watches.

Allan

 

[Dr. Jon]

The non magnetic label and Limpet -ike attachment to a magnet make it criminal.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

The non magnetic and Limpet -ike attachment to a magnet make it criminal.

Thanks for the smile.

 

[roughbarked]

Just out of interest, roughbarked, where are these five jewels?

On the balance?

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

n the balance?

On the balance two, Pin Palette, watch no jewels there.

 

[roughbarked]

On the balance two, Pin Palette, watch no jewels there.

So no ruby pin and no jewels dial side for the balance?

 

[Bernhard J.]

Just an idea, if the case is made of a magnetic material, this might act as a shielding against magnetic fields? Making it a "non-magnetic" watch in the sense that magnetic fields (like in railroad engines) do not affect the timekeeping?

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

"KEEPING WATCH" A History of American Time. By Michael O`Malley.

A Quote.
"The "time famine" strikes both rich and poor-who has never glanced resentfully at
the clock, racing a deadline, and not wondered how the machine became so powerful? According toTime,
the average American now enjoys 37 per cent less leisure than in 1973. Why this shortage of time?

It´s a book worth reading.

 

[jboger]

Bernhard:

I believe you are thinking of a Faraday cage. If you have a closed metallic surface in an external electric field, the region inside the metallic surface will be field-free. One studies this sort of effect in a first-year physics class. I don't recall that there is an analogous cage that counters an external magnetic field. In fact, if such were the case--that a temporary magnetic field could be induced in a non-magnetic case--then that case would be in fact made of a non-non-magnetic material, something magnetizable. That is, it would no longer be non-magnetic. Stray magnetic fields are everywhere, and such fields can readily magetize ferrous materials with a simple touch. What the Non-Magnetic Watch Co purported to market was watches made with materials that could not be magnetized and consequently had no magnetic fields that could adversely affect the timing properties of a watch.

John

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hi John,

I was thinking of WWII military wristwatches, wherein the movements were encapsulated in a material with high magnetic permeability. Permalloy is an example. Permalloy itself is nevertheless ferromagnetic.

Here an example



Perhaps the hunter case of Allan´s watch works like that?

Best, Bernhard

 

[jboger]

Hi Bernard:

I will look up Permalloy. Should be interesting.

John

 

[Dr. Jon]

There have been several materials used for magnetic shielding, for example, permalloy and mu metal. Both are very soft and highly paramagnetic, meaning that the induced magnetic field inside the material. They are ferromagnetic meaning that they retain a residual internal field after removal of the applied external magnetic file. These materials are usually mostly, if not entirely, soft iron.

The effectively shield the space inside a hollow surrounded by the material. It works by diverting the magnetic field away from hollow into the material itself.

A Faraday cage is a different item. It provides shielding from electric fields and can be made from any conductive material. Its effect usually depends of the frequency of the applied electric field with high frequencies staying closer to the surface, called "The skin effect"

This watch does not seem to have a case made of a soft iron. Watch protectors comprising soft iron "clam shells" were available and perhaps this watch came with one of those. Such a device woudl ahve made this watch useable in high magnetic field situations.

 

[Bernhard J.]

The shield of my Zenith, above, is not (mechanically) soft, but quite thin and not easy to deform.

I had thought that permalloy is just an English phrase for mu metal.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I think you will find the inner shield is very mild steel or iron. Usually they gold plate these to prevent corrosion which is associated with such mild steel.

The shield on your Zenith is more of a dust protector than a magnetic shield.

Here is what a typical shield in a super anti -magnetic looks like.

The thick gilt band is the side of the inner "can"

Here it is with the top in place,
These watches usually also have a soft iron base under or as part of the dial. Its caseback is marked "Super anti magnetic". Many aviation wristwatches are made this way.

I believe permalloy and mu metal are trade names of similar alloys

Here is reference to mu metal

Mumetal from MuShield Magnetic Shielding - Made in USA

Mumetal high permeability magnetic shielding is a "soft" ferromagnetic material that does not retain a macroscopic internal field after the removal of an external magnetizing field. Mu metal is a non-oriented 80% nickel-iron-molybdenum alloy.

mumetal.com

Here is the Wikipedia on permalloy

Permalloy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These sites show different allow compositions but the same concept.
If the watch of this thread had a protector it was harder metal and made before these material came into use.

Such a protector is the only way such watch could be non-magnetic and it's not a strong possibility that it was.