What Do I Need to Use Sherline Mill for Bushings

grasshopper

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I want to use my Sherline 5400 Mill to install bushings, but the more I look into this the more confused I am getting. I am not sure what I need to buy. First, I have decided that I would like to use KWM reamers and KWM bushings. I read in the Sherline Mill Manual that for “precision” cutting I should use a Collet 5/32 (#40) to hold the KWM reamers. At first, I thought this meant I do not need an adapter if I use the collet, then when I saw that KWM reamers have a small metal piece mounted perpendicular I wasn’t sure. My questions…what do I need to buy to use my Sherline Mill with KWM? Also, after doing research on this forum I plan to get started by buying reamers #2, #3 & #4 and bushings #14, 16, 38, 41. Does this sound good or are there other recommendations. I am just learning this system and hope I have explained this correctly. As always, thanks for the help.
 

Uhralt

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I want to use my Sherline 5400 Mill to install bushings, but the more I look into this the more confused I am getting. I am not sure what I need to buy. First, I have decided that I would like to use KWM reamers and KWM bushings. I read in the Sherline Mill Manual that for “precision” cutting I should use a Collet 5/32 (#40) to hold the KWM reamers. At first, I thought this meant I do not need an adapter if I use the collet, then when I saw that KWM reamers have a small metal piece mounted perpendicular I wasn’t sure. My questions…what do I need to buy to use my Sherline Mill with KWM? Also, after doing research on this forum I plan to get started by buying reamers #2, #3 & #4 and bushings #14, 16, 38, 41. Does this sound good or are there other recommendations. I am just learning this system and hope I have explained this correctly. As always, thanks for the help.
Don't worry about that pin. It just stays outside the collet. No adapter needed. The pin is for use in the hand bushing tool and the bushing machine.

Uhralt
 

Willie X

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Jerry Kieffer has published reams of information on exactly this subject. He polished quote a bit just recently, so you may be able to do a search with good results.

Most, and I think Jerry too, recommend going from cone shaped center finder, to slightly undersize end mill, to the desired bushing cutter.

Your cutter selection should cover more than 99% of your bushing work but you will need more bushings. I can recommend what I would call a minimum selection for the 3 cutters you mention, if you are interested.

Willie X
 
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Bruce Alexander

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You cover a lot of territory into your questions Grasshopper.

As Uhrait has already stated, the pin can stay just outside of the Collet. You'll still have plenty of shaft to work with. These pins can be removed and some recommend that you do so, but I still like having the option to use the hand tools/handles so I leave the pins in place.

The Assortment of Bushings that you want to stock will somewhat be determined by the type of movements you'll typically be working with. American Mantel Clocks usually have relatively large pivots and plates that are around 1.4mm thick. To work with these movements you would want to order bushings with 1.4mm heights. If you seek to work with heavier, higher-grade movements, you'll want bushings with heights that will match or slightly exceed the plate thickness.

Personally, I really hate to see short bushings in thick plates. Willie can give guidance. You should take him up on it. Once you've decided what you want to stock, I suggest you look at Mark Butterworth's website

http://butterworthclocks.com username=butterworth password=butterworth He has good quality bushings are very reasonable prices.

Here's a Thread with a KWM Chart: Urgos Bushing Question

As far as using your Sherline to place bushings, you'll need some way to hold the plates and well as the tools and a way to accurately locate center. There are a couple of different methods of doing so. Center Finding Cones to Pin Gauges.

Sherline offers a Horology Kit based on Jerry's methods. Horological Milling Machine Bushing and Depthing Accessory – Sherline Products

Here are a few Threads on the subject in the Archives. Jerry has weighed in on all three I believe.
Bushing with a Mill - Clarifying the Process
Bushing with a milling machine setup
Bushing tool VS Sherling milling machene

Jerry also has an NAWCC online course which is available for a very reasonable fee.
See this link for more info: Products by Category

I use Jerry's method. From very small pivots up through very large ones I don't worry about not being on center anymore. The location and placement of my bushings have all been highly accurate and consistent since I started doing so.

I can tell you more about how I do things but I think you should get your information straight from Jerry. He offers several different ways to approach the process and I favor one over the others.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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breeze

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OK I give up already. I will save up and buy a mill. Sherline 5400?

breeze
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hello breeze,

That will work. I purchased a 5410 going metric instead just because I had gone with Metric with my Lathe several years ago.
I think that you definitely want the Zero Adjustable Handwheels.

Regards,

Bruce
 

grasshopper

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Jerry Kieffer has published reams of information on exactly this subject. He polished quote a bit just recently, so you may be able to do a search with good results.

Most, and I think Jerry too, recommend going from cone shaped center finder, to slightly undersize end mill, to the desired bushing cutter.

Your cutter selection should cover more than 99% of your bushing work but you will need more bushings. I can recommend what I would call a minimum selection for the 3 cutters you mention, if you are interested.

Willie X
Thanks Willie…I was going to PM you regarding bushing sizes but thought it would more of a benefit to everyone if I just took you up on your recommendation offer here… I work mainly on American clocks but own a few French ones also and would like to have the option of working on them too…what bushings would you recommend as a “starter list”. Do I need an additional reamer beside #2,3,4 for a French clock? Thanks so much.
 

grasshopper

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Hi All, thanks so much…this is great information that helps a lot. I did take Jerry K’s Mill course (online) a number of years ago which was very helpful, but I didn’t take very good notes. I also went back read a number of Jerry’s post on this forum dealing with using a Mill for bushing. With what I have learned here I do not need an adapter. I should use a collet rather than a chuck and reamers #2,3,4 will cover most of the clocks I deal with. So I guess my only lingering question is what bushing sizes is recommended to start with. Willie X has generously offered to provide a “starters bushing list” which I will take him up on. Thanks again for all your help.
 

Bruce Alexander

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I should use a collet rather than a chuck
That's really a matter of preference grasshopper.

The self-centering 3-jaw chuck can give you good, fast results depending on how you choose to find center. It also has the advantage, (with it's jaws completely closed) of serving as a "plunger" to quickly, fully and securely seat the new bushing. The Sherline Kit supplies a compression spring that allows one to use the chuck in this manner.

If you choose to use Collets instead, which is my preference, you need to obtain an appropriately sized steel rod which is inserted through the spindle and tapped lightly with a hammer when you want to seat the new bushing.

I'm happy to answer any questions you may have on the technique I use either in open forum or via Private Message/Conversation.

I think you'll be very happy with your decision to go this route. I certainly have no reservations or regrets. I really need to use my Mill for other tasks. There is such great potential to do more! I've done a few things (and made a few mistakes) but I've only barely scratched the surface. It's kind of like only using a Lathe to polish pivots. It does the job well, but one can do so much more with it. It's mostly wasted if you don't do so. In my opinion anyway.

Regards,

Bruce
 

Bruce Alexander

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Here is an assortment from Timesavers that contains many of the sizes I use most often in American and German movements. Mark Butterworth sells these separately, and would be a great contact for you in selecting bushings.
American Made Bronze KWM Bushing Assortment #2
As I recall, that's the assortment that I started with also Will. It's a useful general assortment and it also has the advantage of providing one with a labeled storage box.

I think that Mark may also offer some type of storage/dispensing containers, but I'm not sure.

After you've done all of your homework, I strongly recommend that you contact Mark before you place any orders grasshopper. He can discuss differences between brass vs. bronze from his unique perspectives. No doubt he can provide you with some good options and great answers.

In any "case", it's hard to beat his refills for quality and price. :thumb:
 

Bruce Alexander

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Sorry, I think I put my reply to Willie in the wrong place in the thread.
Your meaning was clear enough grasshopper. I'm sure he'll be along in good time if he hasn't gotten back to you already.
I think that the rest of us were just chiming in. At least I was.

Good luck and have some fun.
 

Willie X

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gh,

This took a while, mainly because many changes have taken place and many different kits are available now and some seem rather odd to me.

One thing that hasn't changed is KWMs downright wierd numbering system. So, I decided to list the old kit numbers along with the indivifual KWM numbers contained therein. The numbers should all be correct but they often jump out of sequence. Just remember when most people would say 1, 2, 3 & 4. KWM would say 1, 2, 13, & 6. :)

Here goes, we'll start on the easy end.

For your #4 reamer you will need 3 - 10 packs to be: #45, #91, & #92. These are all 1.9 mm in height.

For your #2 reamer you will need 3 - 10 packs to be: #10, #12 & #64. These are 1.4 mm in height. You will also need 3 more 10 packs to be: #33, #35, & #37 these are 1.9 mm in height. Note: The #37 bushings may be included in assortment #2, if this assortment is still available.

Ok, now for the testy part.

Your #3 reamer will be the most used one by far. So for it, I would recommend that you buy two assortments. These assortments consist of a small 10 compartment box, each compartment holding 10 bushings. Each bushing is .1 mm larger than the last. You will need one assortment that has bushings of 1.4 mm height and one with bushings of 1.9 mm height. These are/were called respectively (by Merritts) bushing kits #1 and bushing kit #2. Timesavers listed them as part #11604 and #11065.

I'm sure that Mark will know what you are talking about when you mention "The System - made in America - assortment #s 1 & 2".

I will give you the individual bushing #s so you can make up your own kit, if necessary.

Kit #1 contains: #s 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 67, 21, 68.
Kit #2 contains: #s 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 88, 44, 89.

You will eventually need some of the taller and larger bushings but it's probably best to just play that along as necessary. Oh, and if you make up your own assortments, #1 and #2, you can actually skip every other number to save cost. However, you will be to spendng a lot more time broaching ... that's no fun.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Feel free to ask questions, and maybe someone can archive this, after some cleanup? I've posted a couple of abbreviated versions of this in the past but I'm not sure if they are still around.

Willie X
 

shutterbug

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If you decide to go Bergeon, this one is the one I bought and it covers almost every need I've ever had. Features two lengths too, which is important for thicker plates, although they are not needed as often as the shorter ones.
 

Bruce Alexander

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If you decide to go Bergeon, this one is the one I bought and it covers almost every need I've ever had. Features two lengths too, which is important for thicker plates, although they are not needed as often as the shorter ones.
SB,

I'm not trying to hijack grasshopper's thread but since you brought up Bergeon, and since our OP is apparently going KWM I think I have a valid question which doesn't deviate too much.

A while back, Mark Butterworth suggested a "bare bones" Bergeon supplement to a KWM setup. There are cases which come up from time to time where I need to replace a Bergeon Bushing. I end up having to turn a custom replacement since Bergeon preps are generally bigger than KWMs.

I'm not looking for a lot of detailed recommendations, but do you have any general suggestions or advice along these lines? I don't want to spend a lot of money stocking up so it may just be best for me to continue turning custom bushings as needed. What do you think?

Thank you,

Bruce
 

Willie X

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I started out with the Bergeon system about 40 years back. I have the whole enchalata #5488 bushing set. I used this set for about 5 years but when I bought into the 'KWM for Bergeon bushing tools" thing, I never had any intention of going back.

I still drag out the big yellow box from time to time. They have the best replacement for the infamous Urgos T2F problem (#55?) and I do still re-replace an old Bergeon bushing from time to time.

So, bottom line, nice to have around but you would be much better off to buy them as necessary. As long as you have most, or all, of the KWM bushings you would normally need, post #14.

Willie X
 

Uhralt

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I don't want to spend a lot of money stocking up so it may just be best for me to continue turning custom bushings as needed. What do you think?
That's what I'm doing. I'm not patient enough to order individual bushings that are not standard and wait for shipping.

Uhralt
 

Bruce Alexander

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Okay. I think I'll just turn custom bushings when I need to. I don't run into the situation often enough to justify buying into Bergeon and I haven't seen an Urgos movement in my shop yet.
Thanks Willie. Thanks Uhrait.
 

grasshopper

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Willie X
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this detailed information on what bushings would be best for me to purchased to get started...this is fabulous! I have already contacted Mark Butterworth to purchase the bushings not included in the kits and have ordered the kits from Timesavers.
Thanks again
 
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Willie X

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You are very welcome.

It would be nice if you could report back in a year or two and tell everyone how those 28 bushing sizes worked out for you. Suggest additions, deletions, etc.

Willie
 

brian fisher

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gh,

This took a while, mainly because many changes have taken place and many different kits are available now and some seem rather odd to me.

One thing that hasn't changed is KWMs downright wierd numbering system. So, I decided to list the old kit numbers along with the indivifual KWM numbers contained therein. The numbers should all be correct but they often jump out of sequence. Just remember when most people would say 1, 2, 3 & 4. KWM would say 1, 2, 13, & 6. :)

Here goes, we'll start on the easy end.

For your #4 reamer you will need 3 - 10 packs to be: #45, #91, & #92. These are all 1.9 mm in height.

For your #2 reamer you will need 3 - 10 packs to be: #10, #12 & #64. These are 1.4 mm in height. You will also need 3 more 10 packs to be: #33, #35, & #37 these are 1.9 mm in height. Note: The #37 bushings may be included in assortment #2, if this assortment is still available.

Ok, now for the testy part.

Your #3 reamer will be the most used one by far. So for it, I would recommend that you buy two assortments. These assortments consist of a small 10 compartment box, each compartment holding 10 bushings. Each bushing is .1 mm larger than the last. You will need one assortment that has bushings of 1.4 mm height and one with bushings of 1.9 mm height. These are/were called respectively (by Merritts) bushing kits #1 and bushing kit #2. Timesavers listed them as part #11604 and #11065.

I'm sure that Mark will know what you are talking about when you mention "The System - made in America - assortment #s 1 & 2".

I will give you the individual bushing #s so you can make up your own kit, if necessary.

Kit #1 contains: #s 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 67, 21, 68.
Kit #2 contains: #s 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 88, 44, 89.

You will eventually need some of the taller and larger bushings but it's probably best to just play that along as necessary. Oh, and if you make up your own assortments, #1 and #2, you can actually skip every other number to save cost. However, you will be to spendng a lot more time broaching ... that's no fun.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Feel free to ask questions, and maybe someone can archive this, after some cleanup? I've posted a couple of abbreviated versions of this in the past but I'm not sure if they are still around.

Willie X

there is definitely a lot of great information here. personally, my collection of spares consists of the smallest pivot size for each KWM reamer # in both the thick and thin heights. when i need one, i just drill the pivot hole out a little undersize for my needs and then broach it to fit. its pretty easy to make the pivot hole larger when you need to. obviously, going the other way is a problem.

i keep the thick sizes around because most of the movements i work on these days are tube chiming hall clocks
 

Uhralt

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there is definitely a lot of great information here. personally, my collection of spares consists of the smallest pivot size for each KWM reamer # in both the thick and thin heights. when i need one, i just drill the pivot hole out a little undersize for my needs and then broach it to fit. its pretty easy to make the pivot hole larger when you need to. obviously, going the other way is a problem.

i keep the thick sizes around because most of the movements i work on these days are tube chiming hall clocks
I just wonder how you drill the pivot holes out. Do you hold the bushing in a collet and drill using the lathe?

Uhralt
 
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brian fisher

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yes, because i am rather particular, that is about the only way to get a good centered hole.

its probably not absolutely necessary though. most 19c american clocks weren't built to very close tolerances to begin with. likely a drill press would be close enough. i haven't tried it, but my KWM bushing machine has a small 1/4" drill chuck on the business end. i would suppose that would do a more than adequate job too.
 
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