What’s the best way to clean a movement

[PierceArrow]

I am currently thinking of buying some equipment to learn to clean watch movements. Just wondering what the opinions out there are. Is the L&R machine or a vintage ultrasonic watch master cleaning machine by bulova good. Or finally the new ultrasonic you can get for under $50. I am not looking at spending tons of money but the first two have come up for sale. So not sure what’s the best out of the three. I am not looking at being a pro. Just a hobby and one watch at a time. Plus something that doesn’t break. Thanks everyone.

 

[PierceArrow]

I am currently thinking of buying some equipment to learn to clean watch movements. Just wondering what the opinions out there are. Is the L&R machine or a vintage ultrasonic watch master cleaning machine by bulova good. Or finally the new ultrasonic you can get for under $50. I am not looking at spending tons of money but the first two have come up for sale. So not sure what’s the best out of the three. I am not looking at being a pro. Just a hobby and one watch at a time. Plus something that doesn’t break. Thanks everyone.

I am going to add to this does anyone recommend hand cleaning like DeCarle says in his book.

 

[karlmansson]

Hello!

This subject has been discussed countless times on this forum and a search of it should yield some good results, I'm sure.
In my experience, machine cleaning is superior to hand cleaning in almost all cases. I have a cheap ultrasonic and a rotary cleaner and use both in conjunction to each other. The US is good on solid steel parts that can take prolonged exposure to US. Plated brass parts on the other hand do not fare so well from it, the plating gets eroded, so I only use it for short periods of time. A few minutes or so.

Best regards
Karl

 

[GeneJockey]

Machine cleaning does not eliminate the need for hand cleaning, especially of jewels and pivots. And you still have to minutely inspect things like wheels and pinions, because often crud hides there and eludes the cleaning machine. BUT, an L&R Master (or similar) with good commercial fluids, plus hand cleaning, will give you a nice result.

 

[karlmansson]

Machine cleaning does not eliminate the need for hand cleaning, especially of jewels and pivots. And you still have to minutely inspect things like wheels and pinions, because often crud hides there and eludes the cleaning machine. BUT, an L&R Master (or similar) with good commercial fluids, plus hand cleaning, will give you a nice result.

Yes, that’s true. I mean hand cleaning only. Pegging out jewels and bushings is a good practice to ensure good, clean contact surfaces. Where there is oil there is also the biggest chance of contamination and resins forming. Which are the hardest to get rid of. So always inspect your parts after cleaning and don’t take anything for granted.

 

[GeneJockey]

I am going to add to this does anyone recommend hand cleaning like DeCarle says in his book.

You mean where you "dissolve a lump of cyanide the size of a walnut in a teacup of warm water"?

Uh, no.

 

[PierceArrow]

You mean where you "dissolve a lump of cyanide the size of a walnut in a teacup of warm water"?

Uh, no.

Ok that’s not a liquid I was hoping to use saw it and got a bit concerned. Is there another method you suggest wether on line or in a book to do it by hand that doesn’t use such toxic chemicals.

What chemicals are preferred.

Can I use a new ultrasonic instead of a more expensive L&R.

Just starting so I do t want to commit to a of money. I want to start small and work my way from modest watches and see where it goes. Thanks to all for the replies.

 

[karlmansson]

Ok that’s not a liquid I was hoping to use saw it and got a bit concerned. Is there another method you suggest wether on line or in a book to do it by hand that doesn’t use such toxic chemicals.

What chemicals are preferred.

Can I use a new ultrasonic instead of a more expensive L&R.

Just starting so I do t want to commit to a of money. I want to start small and work my way from modest watches and see where it goes. Thanks to all for the replies.

I started out using hand cleaning and heptane. Not worth the hassle. The results were sub par and the fumes are dangerous. You can get a rotary machine used for not too much Money. Modern ultrasonics can also be bought for Little Money and they will do the job. I compared the specs for my cheapo Chinese one with an Elma for about ten times the price. The frequency of the transduscer and the specified output was about the same. What you pay for in an expensive US is build quality (and therefore longevity), tank size and heating elements. Very few of the cheaper Machines have built in heating. Some can also be set to resonant frequencies of the base freq. and therefore be used for both fine and coarse cleaning.

In general, the higher the frequency, the smaller the bubbles and cavitation and the higher the resolution of the cleaning process. That being said, an US is all well and good for cleaning but you still need a good system for rinsing and drying. Without a rinse, you will only disperse old oils and grit over the parts, not remove it.

A topic that I Always return to is the importance of drying parts in warm air. Cool parts will cause the humidity in the air to form condensation on the part Surfaces. That moisture will later on cause rust. So using a water free cleaner and rinse is pointless unless you prevent the formation of condensation. The importance of heating is extra large for liquids that are highly volatile. Quickly evaporating Chemicals such as isopropanol or heptane will cool the parts by a lot.

But again, all of the above has been discussed at lenght in previous threads. Use the search function.

Best regards
Karl

 

[PierceArrow]

Thanks for your reply and guiding me in the right direction. I have been having trouble using the search with my phone. Will check on the computer.

I started out using hand cleaning and heptane. Not worth the hassle. The results were sub par and the fumes are dangerous. You can get a rotary machine used for not too much Money. Modern ultrasonics can also be bought for Little Money and they will do the job. I compared the specs for my cheapo Chinese one with an Elma for about ten times the price. The frequency of the transduscer and the specified output was about the same. What you pay for in an expensive US is build quality (and therefore longevity), tank size and heating elements. Very few of the cheaper Machines have built in heating. Some can also be set to resonant frequencies of the base freq. and therefore be used for both fine and coarse cleaning.

In general, the higher the frequency, the smaller the bubbles and cavitation and the higher the resolution of the cleaning process. That being said, an US is all well and good for cleaning but you still need a good system for rinsing and drying. Without a rinse, you will only disperse old oils and grit over the parts, not remove it.

A topic that I Always return to is the importance of drying parts in warm air. Cool parts will cause the humidity in the air to form condensation on the part Surfaces. That moisture will later on cause rust. So using a water free cleaner and rinse is pointless unless you prevent the formation of condensation. The importance of heating is extra large for liquids that are highly volatile. Quickly evaporating Chemicals such as isopropanol or heptane will cool the parts by a lot.

But again, all of the above has been discussed at lenght in previous threads. Use the search function.

Best regards
Karl

your reply. I will

 

[Ticktinker]

Along this line, (cleaning) I have just bought a fiberglass scratch removal pen.
It seems to pick up a lot of black or at least gray crud.
How is this sort of pen managed, does the movement or parts intended to be worked on need a preparation that will minimize the crud picked up by the pen?

 

[Samantha]

A fiberglass scratch brush is intended to remove rust off parts and not for general cleaning of parts.
Samantha

 

[Ticktinker]

So how does one maintain a scratch pen?

 

[karlmansson]

As it's only intended to Clean off rust there really shouldn't be any build up in the brush. They are usually self correcting as they wear but I suppose you could rub it against a file or abrasive paper in order to even out the bristles. Use an old file as the glass will dull the teeth.

 

[glenhead]

I am currently thinking of buying some equipment to learn to clean watch movements. Just wondering what the opinions out there are. Is the L&R machine or a vintage ultrasonic watch master cleaning machine by bulova good. Or finally the new ultrasonic you can get for under $50. I am not looking at spending tons of money but the first two have come up for sale. So not sure what’s the best out of the three. I am not looking at being a pro. Just a hobby and one watch at a time. Plus something that doesn’t break. Thanks everyone.

This is one of those areas that causes holy wars. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't really matter. The super-whoopie machines are primarily more convenient. Harbor Freight, Amazon, and many other vendors have small heated ultrasonic cleaners that will do just fine. Get a few baby food jars to put the cleaning solution in - there's no need to waste over a quart of cleaning solution for a watch. Put the solution and parts in the jar(s), put the jar(s) on the nylon mat that comes in most of these machines, add hot water around the jars, turn on the heater, and run it through a cycle or two. Then put the parts in other jars, add rinsing solution to the jars, and run a cycle or two. Put the parts in a tea ball or other mesh container that keeps them from blowing away and hit them with a hair dryer. You're done.

Before all that, get the major grunge off with a toothpick. A scratch pen is gross overkill, and can remove the plating on watch parts. Toothpicks are cheap-to-free, and with a pocket knife to trim off the dirty pieces one toothpick will last many watches.

Solutions? If you get serious about this, the Big Boy solutions work well. Just be sure that the rinsing solution is the same brand as the cleaning solution, and if there are "grades" within a brand get the same grade. Watch cleaning solutions are all just their twinned rinsing solutions with a soap in them, so using the right rinse ensures you're rinsing with the right stuff. A jar of each will do one to four watches, depending on how filthy the watches are. A gallon of either isn't cheap, but they do work well. To start with, good old lighter fluid works really well for both cleaning and rinsing, and it won't hurt anything in the watch.

As others have said, this topic is covered ad nauseam in other threads. The search feature is your friend. However, I hope this helps give you an idea of how to do it on the cheap-and-simple as a beginner.

Glen

 

[Samantha]

So how does one maintain a scratch pen?

The ones I've used have a knob type thing on the top that is turned to increase the amount of bristles sticking out, as they wear and break off during use.
Samantha

 

[glenhead]

So how does one maintain a scratch pen?

The ones I've used have a knob type thing on the top that is turned to increase the amount of bristles sticking out, as they wear and break off during use.
Samantha

Yeah, you really don't want to "maintain" a scratch pen. Being tiny glass fibers, the danged things get EVERYWHERE as it is. If you try to make it flat again you're just flinging microscopic glass daggers all over creation. Just my opinion, anyway...

Glen

 

[Bill Stockton]

I'm sort of in the same barrel as PierceArrow. Have my own collection of watches and due the to growing scarcity of qualified watch makers in my area, have been considering learning to clean them myself. Starting by taking the NAWCC Servicing a Pocket Watch for the Beginner class at the end of this month. Don't intend to do it for others, just maintain my own collection as needed. I have considered this several times and read a number of "How To" discussions and watched Utube videos. Earlier commenters are certainly correct that there have been lots and lots of opinions as to the best cleaning process and solvents. Seems that ALL the suggested cleaning solvents come with the same problem of seriously noxious fumes. My question (which to you who are far more informed is probably going to sound pretty stupid) is why not use a solution of luke warm water and Dawn dishwashing detergent? Follow with a rinse of 99.9% Isopropyl Alcohol and dry thoroughly with a hair drier. Still use a toothpick or pegwood to remove stuck-on gunk.

Another related issue is what kind or brand of oil to use. Seems to be lots of opinions on that too.

 

[glenhead]

It's not a stupid question at all, Bill. The main reason for the petroleum-based cleaners and rinses is the lacquer and other seriously-stuck-on "stuff" that gets onto the metal and mineral parts. It's sort of akin to cleaning an engine. Soapy water will get a lot of the stuff off, but it won't get it *clean*. Especially for a watch, you want the danged thing "surgically clean", as they say, because the power supply (mainspring) is so easily overwhelmed by friction.

The cleaning and rinsing solutions from either Zenith or L&R are a long, long ways from "noxious", in my opinion. I've used Zenith for years, and it's not at all unpleasant. Having an open ultrasonic cleaning container of it in the shop for hours has never been an issue for either me or my wife, and she's pretty picky.

And yes, the lubricant holy wars are pretty amazing. Purely from a tribology (the study of lubrication) perspective, pure synthetics are currently (seriously) the best. PAG lubricants (Moebius 9000-series) are best for metal-to-mineral bearings (jeweled, that is), but they're $54,000 per gallon. PAGs are nearly as good on metal-to-metal bearings as PAO lubricants, which include pure-synthetic sewing machine oil and any pure-synthetic motor oil, such as Mobil 1, Castrol Edge, etc. PAO isn't nearly as good as PAG on jeweled pivots, but it's the best currently made for metal-to-metal. I use Moebius oils on all watch pivots because it's convenient and a watch only takes a few nanoliters, but use a couple of weights of Castrol Edge for clocks. Lots and lots and lots of threads here debate the anecdotal evidence ad-nauseam, but physics is physics. PAG for jeweled and PAO for non-jeweled are da bomb.

Hope this helps.

Glen

 

[Bill Stockton]

Thanks Glen. That is a very helpful explanation.
Bill