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Westminster chimes wrong 4 notes

Mrs Reliable

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Hi,
I'm trying to fix a clock which has been in the family for decades but not used for many years. I have cleaned it, and oiled it and it has improved to the extent it now chimes the correct amount of notes each quarter, except on the hour - only 15 notes are heard, and the notes in each quarter are in the incorrect sequence. Files attached. Any help gratefully received. Read somewhere about a limit screw, I think I know where they are on this clock, but they are so loose they might already fall out, and I can't move the cogs manually ??

Take a listen here:

Thanks in advance !
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hello and welcome to the NAWCC's Forums.

Chime clocks are relatively complex.
What did you do to service the movement?
Your clock's timing is pretty far off and the Strike Train drops out of Warning too soon.
What make and model are you working with? It may have Chime Auto-Correcting feature that needs to be considered and properly adjusted as well.


Bruce
 
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Mrs Reliable

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Hello and welcome to the NAWCC's Forums.

Chime clocks are relatively complex.
What did you do to service the movement?
Your clock's timing is pretty far off and the Strike Train drops out of Warning too soon.
What make and model are you working with? It may have Chime Auto-Correcting feature that needs to be considered and properly adjusted as well.


Bruce
The clock just says ‘foreign’ on the face, nothing anywhere else. I used wd40 to blast away any dust and use silicon oil on the tiny rivet looking things hoping it would seep into where it needs to go.
Before I stared this process, it only chimed on one hammer and the pendulum stopped after a couple of seconds. I’ve just about got the pendulum working successfully by adjusting the clutch slightly.

What would I need to do to fix it?

Thank you for your reply.
 

NEW65

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Hi. Looks like the timing has slipped. It’s quite a simple job to correct but you may have to remove the mechanism out of the case. Are you in U.K.?
 

shutterbug

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You should be able to loosen the large wheel on the back of the movement - the one that turns the chime drum. It should have a set screw. Loosen it, and you'll be able to turn the drum by hand. It's easiest on the 1/4 or the 3/4 chime. The quarter has all four hammers falling in order, highest to lowest notes. The end of the 3/4 is the same four notes. When you get it right, tighten the screw back up and you're done.
 

Mrs Reliable

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Hi. Looks like the timing has slipped. It’s quite a simple job to correct but you may have to remove the mechanism out of the case. Are you in U.K.?
Yes I’m on the uk, and I’m happy to remove the mechanism again.
 

Mrs Reliable

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You should be able to loosen the large wheel on the back of the movement - the one that turns the chime drum. It should have a set screw. Loosen it, and you'll be able to turn the drum by hand. It's easiest on the 1/4 or the 3/4 chime. The quarter has all four hammers falling in order, highest to lowest notes. The end of the 3/4 is the same four notes. When you get it right, tighten the screw back up and you're done.
I will try this. Thank you.
 

Mrs Reliable

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I will try this. Thank you.
Hi,
Can you annotate this image to show me which cog and where the set screw is? I thought it might be the 2 screw on the little cog, but they are already so loose, they may fall out if I loosen them any more, and I can't move the cogs as they're too stiff. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place?

IMG_2674.JPG
 

NEW65

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If you loosen the two screws on the lowest wheel you’ll be able to adjust the barrel manually and hear the ‘quarter to’ the hour position. But you’ll need to ensure that the clock minute hand is at ‘quarter to’ the hour first. When you have set the barrel you can tighten the two screws again although tightening one screw will do it :)
 

NEW65

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Just noted what you said.. sounds like that’s why the timing has slipped because screws are loose. You can turn the barrel manually that collects the hammers, by locating it with a finger. It’s between the plates to the right of the hammers. It’s not easy to describe or tell someone who has had no previous experience. Good luck :)
 

Mrs Reliable

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Just noted what you said.. sounds like that’s why the timing has slipped because screws are loose. You can turn the barrel manually that collects the hammers, by locating it with a finger. It’s between the plates to the right of the hammers. It’s not easy to describe or tell someone who has had no previous experience. Good luck :)
left hand side in-between the plates, or right hand side of plates? at the moment , nothing seems to move. Are you able to annotate on these mages at all please?

IMG_2676.JPG IMG_2675.JPG
 

murphyfields

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IMG_2674 b.jpg

I think you figured this out, but here is where you want to look. You may not be able to turn the gear, but I think you should be able to turn the spikey drum that is connected to this gear between the plates. The spikes lift the hammers.
 

Mrs Reliable

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left hand side in-between the plates, or right hand side of plates? at the moment , nothing seems to move. Are you able to annotate on these mages at all please?

View attachment 631330 View attachment 631331
I think I know the barrel, its the bit with large notches on the right hand photo. So what is happening seems to be hammer 4 is not striking in time.
View attachment 631333

I think you figured this out, but here is where you want to look. You may not be able to turn the gear, but I think you should be able to turn the spikey drum that is connected to this gear between the plates. The spikes lift the hammers.
I've figured that out now, but is it a game of trial and error to get them all to align in the right place? I've managed to do something, but not right yet. Hammer 4 is now striking first on all quarter hours, but there is a pause then the first three notes of the correct sequence sound!
 

Cespain

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I recently struggled with the same type of clock so can maybe offer some advice. I note that one of the hammers is not dropping after the chimes so you need to fix that and also get the right sequence of notes. So to do this run the 1/4 hour chime and when it is finished (see attached annotated photo) remove the circlip on the middle wheel and then remove the wheel. You will then be able to rotate the bottom wheel by hand which will lift and drop the hammers. Rotate the wheel until you see hammers 1,2,3,4 lift and then drop. I not sure which side to count from but it will be the only time when 4 hammers lift in sequence. This same sequence also happens at the end of the 3/4 hour chime so if you turn the wheel through another 16 notes (8 for the 1/2 hour chime and the first 8 of the 3/4 chime) you should see the sequence 1,2,3,4 again. You can now replace the middle wheel and circlip and see if the chimes work properly. If not then you will probably have to change the setting of the chime control cam which controls how long each quarter chime runs for and has to be synced with the minute hand. In this case it's best that you take and post a photo of the back plate of the clock so that we can annotate it to give you further directions. Good luck.
IMG_2674.JPG
 
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murphyfields

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IMG_2675 b.jpg

And here is the spikey drum (not the metal bar that is also in the selected part of the pic) you should be able to turn with those set screws so loose
 

Mrs Reliable

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I recently struggled with the same type of clock so can maybe offer some advice. I note that one of the hammers is not dropping after the chimes so you need to fix that and also get the right sequence of notes. So to do this run the 1/4 hour chime and when it is finished (see attached annotated photo) remove the circlip on the middle wheel and then remove the wheel. You will then be able to rotate the bottom wheel by hand which will lift and drop the hammers. Rotate the wheel until you see hammers 1,2,3,4 lift and then drop. I not sure which side to count from but it will be the only time when 4 hammers lift in sequence. This same sequence also happens at the end of the 3/4 hour chime so if you turn the wheel through another 16 notes (8 for the 1/2 hour chime and the first 8 of the 3/4 chime) you should see the sequence 1,2,3,4 again. You can now replace the middle wheel and circlip and see if the chimes work properly. If not then you will probably have to change the setting of the chime control cam which controls how long each quarter chime runs for and has to be synced with the minute hand. In this case it's best that you take and post a photo of the back plate of the clock so that we can annotate it to give you further directions. Good luck.
View attachment 631334
.when you say 1,2,3,4 in order. Are the rods all supposed to be in order, ie shortest to longest? My rods are in short to long - 1-4.
 

Royce

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BTW, your movement was made by Kienzle, a German clock company. The trademark is directly above the serial number in the photo in post #8.

Royce
 

Mrs Reliable

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BTW, your movement was made by Kienzle, a German clock company. The trademark is directly above the serial number in the photo in post #8.

Royce
So it is, I couldn't actually make that out, but now you've said, I can see!! Thank you.
 

Mrs Reliable

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No, the rods usually aren't in order of short to long or vice versa but the 4 hammer sequence I mentioned should sound 4 descending notes.
I'm getting somewhere with this now. Thank you very much. Will report back tomorrow, when hopefully I'll have cracked it!!
 
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Mrs Reliable

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I recently struggled with the same type of clock so can maybe offer some advice. I note that one of the hammers is not dropping after the chimes so you need to fix that and also get the right sequence of notes. So to do this run the 1/4 hour chime and when it is finished (see attached annotated photo) remove the circlip on the middle wheel and then remove the wheel. You will then be able to rotate the bottom wheel by hand which will lift and drop the hammers. Rotate the wheel until you see hammers 1,2,3,4 lift and then drop. I not sure which side to count from but it will be the only time when 4 hammers lift in sequence. This same sequence also happens at the end of the 3/4 hour chime so if you turn the wheel through another 16 notes (8 for the 1/2 hour chime and the first 8 of the 3/4 chime) you should see the sequence 1,2,3,4 again. You can now replace the middle wheel and circlip and see if the chimes work properly. If not then you will probably have to change the setting of the chime control cam which controls how long each quarter chime runs for and has to be synced with the minute hand. In this case it's best that you take and post a photo of the back plate of the clock so that we can annotate it to give you further directions. Good luck.
View attachment 631334
Thank you so much for the help, I've got it pretty much there now. Just the last 4 notes before the hour chime. I only get 3 notes then the chime bar lifts the hammers ready for the chime. It might be a simple fix, but I'm so close and so chuffed that you guys were able to help me!!!

 

shutterbug

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To fix the strike issue, you'll need to remove the movement from the case. Are you up for that? The gathering pallet needs to be set so the strike ends right when the last strike occurs. Then the warning run won't lift the hammers prematurely.
 
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Cespain

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It does seem that the chines are all sounding the right notes but at the end of the hour chime the strike bar lifts the hammer that is about to strike the last note (3rd from the outside) so that note doesn't sound. We can conclude therefore that for some reason the mechanism that activates the strike is running just a tad too soon. I'm not familiar with your particular movement so I can't offer any advice on how to remedy this, sorry. Perhaps some of the other guys can suggest something
 

Mrs Reliable

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It does seem that the chines are all sounding the right notes but at the end of the hour chime the strike bar lifts the hammer that is about to strike the last note (3rd from the outside) so that note doesn't sound. We can conclude therefore that for some reason the mechanism that activates the strike is running just a tad too soon. I'm not familiar with your particular movement so I can't offer any advice on how to remedy this, sorry. Perhaps some of the other guys can suggest something
Yes, that's what I concluded. I'm happy that I've got this far with your help. I'm a bit loath to touch it now in case I ruin it!! Thank you again!
 

Cespain

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Could you post a video of what is happening at the front of the movement while the hour chime/strike is running? This will let us see the action of the chime control cam and gathering pallet that shutterbug mentioned.
 

Mrs Reliable

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Could you post a video of what is happening at the front of the movement while the hour chime/strike is running? This will let us see the action of the chime control cam and gathering pallet that shutterbug mentioned.
I'm not sure I can. If I take the movement out, I can only move the barrel with the centre cog removed. That then only goes through the sequence of 16 hammers, the chiming sequence with 3 hammers together doesn't actually activate. I can only get the hour chimes to activate when the movement is in the clock. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to attach the movement to when it's not in the clock itself.
 

shutterbug

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The strike is probably stopping too late, causing the early start. Adjust the gathering pallet to stop just as the last strike occurs, and it will probably fix the issue.
 

Cespain

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Unfortunately, I don't have anything to attach the movement to when it's not in the clock itself.
That is a problem ok. I have often managed to balance a movement on a block of wood with the mounting lugs sitting on a table and the block under the bottom of the plates. , see photo below. You can adjust the height of the lugs to match that of the block. Be extremely careful when touching the movement as you definitely don't want to knock it over and do damage to any of the parts.
20210109_120630.jpg
 
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Rod Schaffter

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As noted above, WD40 is not good for clock movements because it attracts dust which will eventually stop the clock.
If you were in the 'States, (I don't know if this is available across the pond) I would suggest going to Wal*Mart and get a can of SuperTech engine starting fluid ('ether'; which is a mixture of ethyl ether, heptane, propane, butane and a bit of mineral seal oil; other brands will do the job, but SuperTech seems to have less of the latter than name brands such as Prestone), taking the movement outside on a bed of paper towels, and giving it a good spray, especially the pivot areas; hopefully you can remove some of the dirt from the pivots whilst you are at it. Let it dry for 10 minutes or so (give it a sniff to see as the movement may have water condense on it from the solvents evaporating), and bring it back indoors. You can oil the pivots after it warms up...
 
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Mrs Reliable

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The strike is probably stopping too late, causing the early start. Adjust the gathering pallet to stop just as the last strike occurs, and it will probably fix the issue.
So, I have now got all of the hammers to work in the right order at the right time, and have fixed the early lift of the hammers for chiming!! Thank you so much!! A bit of patience required, but I think it's done now. I have lost the pendulum balance I had, but I'm sure I can fix that again.. but a job for another day.
 

murphyfields

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Take a few moments to pat yourself on the back. These are kind of complex systems, and you came out on top. Next thing you know, you will be taking it apart, cleaning, polishing, and putting it back together.

Well done
 
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Mrs Reliable

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Take a few moments to pat yourself on the back. These are kind of complex systems, and you came out on top. Next thing you know, you will be taking it apart, cleaning, polishing, and putting it back together.

Well done
Thanks you, it’s thanks to the clear explanations on this forum. Without the internet it would have probably cost a fortune or gone to the tip. Bit it does hold fond childhood memories. I don‘t think I’ll be taking it apart. Best not touch it again now it’s working.
 

Mrs Reliable

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Hey Guys,

I made a video of what I did start to finish. I have credited this group at the end... I've now ordered parts to replace the broken glass and door hinges! Feel free to share it if it might help somebody else.

Thanks again.
 

shutterbug

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Very funny ending to your video. I'm glad the clock is working satisfactorily for you. There is some bad news though. It is barely running on time side. The premature strike is still there, but not interfering with the chimes at this point, so no biggie. Of course it's possible that the oiling helped the time side as much as it did the chime, and the video doesn't show it :)
Anyway, congratulations on your first clock! You're ready to press onward and upward! :D