Waterbury with strange bushings

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Dave T, May 18, 2018.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A friend asked me to take a look at this steel plate Waterbury. His only concern was that the springs make a noise occasionally. Probably sticky with dirt and releasing sporadically as it runs down, my guess. And that a spring had been broken and repaired sometime in it's past and he winds it twice a week as a result. In the clock both springs appear to be about the same length. Will know more when I tear it down. It is dirty and needs a good cleaning. I believe he said it hadn't been serviced in over 40 years! It was a wedding gift to his great grandparents.
    But the thing I first noticed was the bushings. Looks like they have all been replaced to me and look to be way oversized in the frame? And the surface on each bushing is slightly mounded and not smooth.? Maybe peened to compensate for wear? They all appear to be tight, (at least with all the dirt), might show a different picture when I clean it.
    The other thing I see is the small rounded flathead screws holding the frame . Have never seen that either.
    All said and done the clock runs and strikes well as it is. Most likely, I'll just clean and lube it and put it back together.
    Waterbury Webb 1.jpg Waterbury Webb 2.jpg
     
  2. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 18, 2017
    579
    109
    43
    Male
    Woodlawn, Ontario
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think those bushings are original. I've got a Waterbury with the same movement, I can't say if yours has been rebushed or not but the large bushings seem to be originals. Here's a pic of mine.
    Don
    fullsizeoutput_22e.jpeg
     
  3. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 3, 2016
    2,228
    117
    63
    Male
    Carson City, Nevada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I also have a similar Waterbury movement in the shop (which is a calendar movement) - test the plates with a magnet - you will most likely find that the plates are steel instead of brass and the large bushings are brass inserts. It is usually a good idea on these to make sure the plates are demagnetized when you are done. It is not so much an issue with magnetism slowing things down as it is that the magnetic areas attract and retain small bits of metal which can cause wear and other issues. They used the steel plates during war times (both for the Spanish American war and WW I) when brass was expensive and being used for ammunitions.
     
  4. Bujumon

    Bujumon Registered User

    Oct 27, 2013
    41
    4
    8
    Newbern TN
    Country Flag:
    Looks similar to one that we have round here...

    0518181319b.jpg 0518181321.jpg
     
    THTanner likes this.
  5. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That makes sense now that you point it out. The large brass inserts in the steel plate was their approach to saving cost and brass. I know this clock is old according to the owner provided provenance. So it would definitely pre-date WWII.
     
  6. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,240
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have a steel plate Ansonia that does not have the brass inserts. Believe me, you are going to appreciate the inserts when you start reaming! :)
     
    THTanner likes this.
  7. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Maybe you need to get out the big drill! ;)

    Here's an interesting approach to tightening the fly or getting rid of old clock hands, I'm not sure which.
    Waterbury fly 3.jpg
     
    Bujumon likes this.
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,713
    604
    113
    I agree with others + the brass bushing appear to be really beaten up. I've never seen a fly wedged with hand pieces before! Some repairer/s left you a real 'piece of work' there.
    Willie X
     
  9. Tom Kloss

    Tom Kloss Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 5, 2003
    1,882
    3
    38
    Male
    Retired from one job, started another.
    N.E. Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi,

    My understanding of the steel plates use is that there was shortage of brass during the Great War (WW1). The steel plates are very harsh on your reamers.


    Tom
     
  10. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've cleaned and re-assembled this clock. It sure is noisy! But my main concern is the countwheel. When I first put it together, it continued to strike after the correct hour. But now it's working properly.
    So, my question is, does the countwheel automatically sync when you start it? And also, the lever appears to have a slight slant to it, but does not touch the sides of the slots.
    Just wondering if I need to make some adjustments. This is the first movement I've seen that goes through warning on the half hour!
    YouTube
     
  11. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,214
    492
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nothing syncs automatically, lift the count lever and release it to advance the count by 1/2 hour until it is correct. The blade should enter the slot mor or less straight but if it works and doesn't touch either side of the slot it should be OK. The blade should follow an arc that if continued would pass through the center of the winding arbor. It isn't uncommon to find that the blade has been bent such that it goes in one position too early or one too late. The timing between the count wheel and the maintenance cam could be off a bit.

    Regarding those large brass inserts, note that especially on Waterbury, the actual pivot hole is frequently not in the center of the insert. This is normal so when bushing these be sure to locate the bushing centered on the original hole, not center the insert.


    RC
     
  12. ssohner

    ssohner Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 19, 2015
    31
    1
    8
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If the need arises to install new bushings in a clock like this, is it customary to install the new bushing in the existing brass insert, or replace the existing brass insert with a new bushing?
     
  13. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,650
    341
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It is recommended to bush the brass insert. As RC noted, the pivot holes are often not in the exact center of the brass insert. Therefore, if you remove the insert you lose center and it will be hard to re-establish.

    Uhralt
     
  14. bikerclockguy

    bikerclockguy Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 22, 2017
    449
    20
    18
    Country Flag:
    I'm guessing that addition was more to add weight to the fly than anything. I've never tried that trick, but I've had trouble slowing some of them down, especially on Sessions bim-bams.
     
  15. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm working on an ancient American (I think) single-weight tall-case clock whose fly has been enhanced with a small slug of brass apparently affixed with epoxy glue. It's thus out of balance, but the whole train is so noisy that you'd never notice.

    The gathering pallet was missing altogether, and so after four attempts at making one that looks conventional I sat down and re-imagined the gathering pallet.. Surprise: you can make an adjustable gathering pallet with a 2mm bushing and a short length of pivot wire soldered thereto. Details on request.

    M Kinsler
     
  16. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Waterbury runs and strikes great except.
    When the strike spring is nearly wound down the strike sequence works fine. But when I wind it up, a little more than fully wound down, (ie: not even full wind) the strike will continue on and not stop when it reaches the next deep slot. If I hold my finger just barely on the fly to help slow it, it will then stop as it should.
    So, where do I adjust it to correct the problem?
     
  17. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,214
    492
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Find the wheel with the cam tha drops the count lever, the next wheel above it should have the stop pin. The gear mesh timing between these two wheels is likely off. Either the stop pin arrives late just before the strik continues, or early before the stop lever is in place. These are seldom correct after assembly and usually do require adjustment.

    RC
     
  18. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    And: have a look at the pin that stops the train and the appropriate area on the lever that it hits. If there's lots of wear on either one, or if the pin is loose, the operation can be intermittent.

    If the count lever has a helper spring on it, tighten it a bit by winding it another turn around the lever's shaft. If there isn't a helper spring on that lever you can add one: I keep a roll of #28 AWG spring brass wire from Timesavers in my supply drawer for such duty. (The roll has to live inside a plastic bag because it tends to unwind somewhat explosively.)

    Note that weight added to the count lever may not work as well as a spring because the spring can accelerate the lever faster than gravity can. I learned this on a cantankerous steel-plate Gilbert I care for.

    M Kinsler
     
  19. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks guys, One more loop on the tension wire fixed it! Striking properly now.
    I haven't wound this clock fully until now, but I think I see why the owner said this clock will only run for 3 or 4 days. I think the springs are too short, or this is not an 8 day clock?! Compared to the Waterbury cuckoo I'm working on simultaneously, the diameter of the springs fully wound is about 40 mm, and the other Waterbury is 45. So, did someone put the wrong springs in it?
    The case for this movement is the Waterbury "Beldon". Maybe they came in two options?
    Here's a picture of the movement with springs fully wound, and the Waterbury cuckoo movement for comparison.
    Waterbury Webb 5 cleaned.jpg Waterbury Cuckoo 27.jpg
     
  20. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,240
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It looks like a typical 8 day clock to me, and the springs look pretty normal. If the springs are 3/4" wide it's an 8 day. The springs should be about 96" (8 feet) long.
     
  21. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I couldn't figure out whether or not the movement has been cleaned and re-bushed where necessary. If it hasn't, that would explain why it doesn't run for eight days. Most of them will run lots longer than that. Polish the pivots, too, and have a look at the escapement verge for wear.

    M Kinsler
     
  22. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    2,612
    66
    48
    retired accountant
    NC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Shut, I'm going to let it run and see how many days I get. One question, how do you measure the length of a coiled spring? I've tried, (when I get it stretched out on the winder) but end up with a lot of guessing when you get toward the center.
    Owner said it made a lot of noise now and then when it ran. I took from that, that the clock and springs was very dirty and the spring was binding and sticking on itself from the dirt and then released suddenly. The movement was very dirty on the tips of the teeth, pinions and pivots, but the movement and the springs didn't look bad at all.
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,240
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think the only way is to stretch the spring out and measure it. I suppose there's a formula based on Pi and the spring thickness. You'd have to count the coils, take the diameter of the outside coil and use Pi to find the circumference, then reduce the first diameter reading by twice the spring thickness, calculate it and add it to the first result, and keep doing that for each coil. Sounds like a lot of trouble :)
     
  24. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I generally pull the spring out as far as I conveniently can and measure it with a tape measure. Add several inches for the inner coils: The spring length need only be approximate. The thickness, however, is important and should be measured with a micrometer or calipers to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch or so.
     
  25. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,713
    604
    113
    The springs look normal. The springs are usually stretched out, cleaned, smoothed up, and lubed, as a part of any take apart service. These clocks take one full turn (360 degrees) of the spring to run one day.
    Willie X
     
  26. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,240
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here's a clumsy spread sheet I threw together real quick to calculate length based on what I said above. The estimated length will be the last number printed on the right column. Try it out and report back please :)
     

    Attached Files:

  27. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,087
    292
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:

Share This Page