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Waterbury runs without pendulum bob, stops with.

mr_byte

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Nov 25, 2009
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First, let me say how much I learn reading in here. Second, I am a total newbie at repairing clocks, so far all I've needed to do is disassemble them, clean and oil and they run fine.

Except this one.

I have cleaned and oiled the movement, replaced the mainspring on the chime/strike side, cleaned and oiled the spring on the time side.

It runs without a load/bob on it, but it speeds up and slows down, not radically, but you can hear it. It seems the speed/slow cycle is the length of one rev of the EW.

This is 1 of two of these movements I have, the other is sans bell for the half-hour. It would unlock the strike and hit one time.

I have timed the strike so that it works well and stops after striking.

I'm just trying to give as good a picture as I can before asking for help/advice.

Also, the pinions seem to all be snug/no play except for the bush in the front plate for the EW. There is some slop, but it doesn't appear that the hole is out of round or anything. I believe the other parts movement's front plate is good.

I replaced the EW with my spare because the other is (self-made) toast.

When I put a weight on the suspension, it'll go from 30 seconds to a minute, depending on how much I swing it.

So I guess I'm not getting impulse here, but I really don't know what I should look for. There is a screw that holds the front bushing for the verge in place, it's not a Rathburn, but stock. I can adjust that so some extent, except that moving away from the BW more than a hair or 2 causes the movement to free-wheel.

Not sure if I need to unload and reclean/oil the mainspring, replace the plate (I don't have the ability to rebush, the ones in the pic were there when I bought the movement) or adjust the verge. I did try to bend one and it snapped. So, if the verges are adjustable, I'm missing something in the how-to department.

I just hope I'm using the right terminology...that would be a miracle ;-)

Jeff
 

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Willie X

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Feb 9, 2008
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mr,

Sounds like you are off to a good start.

Your clock appears to have a strip type dead beat escapement. This is sometimes called a half dead beat.

This type escapement requires that the escapewheel pivots be in good condition. Another two key factors are: One, that the palets have to have cleanly defined 'impulse' and 'dead' faces. If the faces are grooved or rounded they will need to be resurfaced. Two, at each tick each escapewheel tooth has to fall onto one of the 'dead' faces of the pallet.

If you have enough power (and it sounds as if you do), the clock is in beat and these three conditions are in order, the clock will most likely run beautifully.

Good luck, Willie X
 

harold bain

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Jeff, adjusting the verge is something that is very seldom needed, but often regretted.
As you have found out the hard way, they are hardened and must be annealed before attemping any adjustments.
You will need to add "bushing replacement" to your repairs, as most American made movements do require bushings when they stop working.
Whether or not the movement works without the pendulum doesn't really mean much, except it shows there is power at the escapewheel. But if it didn't run without the pendulum, this would not indicate that there is no power.
 

shutterbug

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Exactly as Harold says! Let the mainsprings down again, and with your finger wiggle the main wheel back and forth while observing the pivot holes. You're going to see at least one (and probably more) pivots with lots of movement as you move the wheel. Those need to be bushed! Be sure to watch both plates.
There is plenty of information here about rebushing if you use search, but if you need help we're as near as the computer :)
 

mr_byte

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Alas, the verge I ruined was the better one. This one does have some wear on both pallet faces. I have a dremel available for resurfacing; do the angles need to be precisely the same as what's there, or do I need a close-to-it consistent surface?

As far as bushing replacement goes, I know the solder-on styles and Rathburns (I have examples of both) are frowned on, but what should I be looking for? I usually get parts and such from some folks on eBay, Findingking or StCarp (The latter has a shop) also Old-Fezziwig, also with a shop. I believe between these 3 I've seen bushing tools.

The movement sitting next to this one on the shelf is a New Haven 8-day that has had some bushings soldered on, but it runs so nicely, I'm not touching it.

I'll try replacing my plate first, which should give the EW a nice bushing to play in.

In looking at bushing tools, I scared myself looking at prices...I hope that I'm looking at something that is more than I need.

What about a hammer to shrink the hole and then file/burnishing out the pivot hole to size?
 

dutch

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Don't let the cost of a bushing machine stop you. For a beginner you can do all you need with a hand bushing tool. I used one for about ten years before I bought a machine and still use it now and then for a hole that is hard to get to.
 

harold bain

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Your ebay sources are probably more expensive than what you will find at suppliers such as Timesavers; www.timesavers.com
A few good basic clock repair books may also be of some help. Hammering the bushings closed is more likely to do permanent damage to the movement than be helpful.
 

shutterbug

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Go into the site Harold posted and look around. Everything a hobbyist needs is there :) You'll need some bushings (I'd recommend Bergeon # 11 to start with) and a set of cutting broaches. That's minimum. Some smoothing broaches would be great too. You can get started for around $35.00, and expand from there. As with everything else, get the best you can afford. If you can see fit to get reamers it will make your life a lot easier :) No hammers needed! No punches!
 

mr_byte

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Your ebay sources are probably more expensive than what you will find at suppliers such as Timesavers; www.timesavers.com
A few good basic clock repair books may also be of some help. Hammering the bushings closed is more likely to do permanent damage to the movement than be helpful.
Something like this at Timesavers: Item #18438, they have either Bergeron or KWM styles.

I do have a drill press handy, so if there's a less expensive tool to one, I'd be open for that.

While I'm looking at this as a side line, it's still to early to tell the other half I need to buy a 700.00 tool. :eek:

I have a few books already, dry British one was more theory than step-by-step.
 

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harold bain

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A couple of good beginner books are Phillip Balcomb's Clock Repair Primer, and Clock Repair First Reader. It will give you an idea of what tools you really need, and a lot of diagnostic help.
Timesavers carries both, part # 15012 and 15114. You don't need $700 worth of tools. Using a drill press for bushing work should only be done by manually turning it, not under power.
None of the bushing machines are power tools.
You need to be able to hold the clock plate firmly in place while reaming the hole for the bushing. A drill press table might work, but not as well as the commercially available tools. Often there are parts on the plates that won't let you hold the plate flat to the table.
 
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Richard T.

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Quote Harold: Using a drill press for bushing work should only be done by manually turning it, not under power. End Quote.

Harold, with the right set up it works great. I have a dedicated drill press set up for doing nothing but bushings. Using the drill press adapter sold by Merritts and probably others it works about as well as a much higher priced bushing machine.

It's done under power as well. Just find the center of your pivot hole, secure the plate in the holder(s), put in your reamer, ream, install bushing.

Best,

Richard T.
 

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harold bain

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Thanks, Richard. I've never seen bushings done under power, and figured the reamer might catch and send the plate spinning. I guess with care it can be done safely.
 

Richard T.

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It is best to err on the side of caution. When the plate is secured between the holders it won't move.

Best,

Richard T.
 

Thyme

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Sep 18, 2006
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First, let me say how much I learn reading in here. Second, I am a total newbie at repairing clocks, so far all I've needed to do is disassemble them, clean and oil and they run fine.

Except this one.

I have cleaned and oiled the movement, replaced the mainspring on the chime/strike side, cleaned and oiled the spring on the time side.

It runs without a load/bob on it, but it speeds up and slows down, not radically, but you can hear it. It seems the speed/slow cycle is the length of one rev of the EW.

This is 1 of two of these movements I have, the other is sans bell for the half-hour. It would unlock the strike and hit one time.

I have timed the strike so that it works well and stops after striking.

I'm just trying to give as good a picture as I can before asking for help/advice.

Also, the pinions seem to all be snug/no play except for the bush in the front plate for the EW. There is some slop, but it doesn't appear that the hole is out of round or anything. I believe the other parts movement's front plate is good.

I replaced the EW with my spare because the other is (self-made) toast.

When I put a weight on the suspension, it'll go from 30 seconds to a minute, depending on how much I swing it.

So I guess I'm not getting impulse here, but I really don't know what I should look for. There is a screw that holds the front bushing for the verge in place, it's not a Rathburn, but stock. I can adjust that so some extent, except that moving away from the BW more than a hair or 2 causes the movement to free-wheel.

Not sure if I need to unload and reclean/oil the mainspring, replace the plate (I don't have the ability to rebush, the ones in the pic were there when I bought the movement) or adjust the verge. I did try to bend one and it snapped. So, if the verges are adjustable, I'm missing something in the how-to department.

I just hope I'm using the right terminology...that would be a miracle ;-)

Jeff
The fact that it slows down without the pendulum attached and then regains speed further along in the EW revolution indicates power loss. (I disagree with Harold in that I maintain that the test is a valid one; a healthy power train won't slow and regain momentum.) From what you describe, the problem is on that end of the train rather than at the spring end. You say you replaced the EW. I suspect it's a bent pivot or non-concentric, bent EW.

Check all the simple things first. If the play in the bushings is minimal, check for a bent pivot. You'll need to check pivots and bushings on both the verge and the EW. (I'm a stickler for insisting on an accurate diagnosis before attempting any repair. It might be a waste of time and effort to install bushings, only to afterward find that it still won't run if the problem lies elsewhere.)

Alas, the verge I ruined was the better one. This one does have some wear on both pallet faces. I have a dremel available for resurfacing; do the angles need to be precisely the same as what's there, or do I need a close-to-it consistent surface?
The fact that the verge is worn might also be the culprit itself. You can resurface with a Dremel if you have a speed control for it. You'll need either a diamond disc (preferably) or a carborundum disc mounted on a mandrel. (If Dremel doesn't offer discs, PM me privately and I'll supply you with one.) The angulation must be exact - so you need a very steady hand to grind out the ruts, keeping the angle exact.

Also, straighten your suspension rod, as it's kinda funky looking. :)
 

mr_byte

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Nov 25, 2009
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I was leaning toward a EW that is out of round. It seems a bit more worn as the EW turns very easily and barely moves the verge, like the teeth are worn down too much.

On the subject of tools, I see at timekeeper's site a lot of inexpensive broach sets, of different sizes. I'm unsure of sizes I need, etc.

Guess I better read a book or three :D
----
Someone mentioned power loss, but I don't believe that's the case, as the speed varies within a rev of the EW. If I let it freewheel, the speed is consistent, it's only while it runs with the verge in place, with or without a bob on the suspension rod.

Something I just found is that when it stops, it seems that the verge jams on the wheel, at (I believe it's called) the entrance(?) of the verge, as it stops just before the the tooth leaving the verge can exit. Probably that wear on the verge. The wheels are all free when it's stopped, and light pressure (ie: restarting the pendulum) releases the wheel and it'll run again for a few revs of the EW.
 
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Thyme

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Sep 18, 2006
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metro NY area
I was leaning toward a EW that is out of round. It seems a bit more worn as the EW turns very easily and barely moves the verge, like the teeth are worn down too much.

On the subject of tools, I see at timekeeper's site a lot of inexpensive broach sets, of different sizes. I'm unsure of sizes I need, etc.

Guess I better read a book or three :D
----
Someone mentioned power loss, but I don't believe that's the case, as the speed varies within a rev of the EW. If I let it freewheel, the speed is consistent, it's only while it runs with the verge in place, with or without a bob on the suspension rod.

Something I just found is that when it stops, it seems that the verge jams on the wheel, at (I believe it's called) the entrance(?) of the verge, as it stops just before the the tooth leaving the verge can exit. Probably that wear on the verge. The wheels are all free when it's stopped, and light pressure (ie: restarting the pendulum) releases the wheel and it'll run again for a few revs of the EW.
Hmmm. This may sound 'out of left field', but check your crutch loop (where it contacts the suspension rod). Come to think of it, with what I remember seeing of the rod being so bent, it may be running with interference. The rod should be straight and the crutch loop should be slightly loose, not tight around the rod. Before doing anything else, I'd make or get a new rod if I were you. They cost so little, you know...
 

mr_byte

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Hmmm. This may sound 'out of left field', but check your crutch loop (where it contacts the suspension rod). Come to think of it, with what I remember seeing of the rod being so bent, it may be running with interference. The rod should be straight and the crutch loop should be slightly loose, not tight around the rod. Before doing anything else, I'd make or get a new rod if I were you. They cost so little, you know...
I've straightened the rod out but I can try another later. I got a batch of long ones I can try out one and see how it flies.

I've put this one aside to stew for a bit, I took the New Haven that I cleaned and hung it on the shelf and stuck a weight on it to make sure it'll run, and it's going strong. I had 2 New Haven clocks, the movements are identical, with different cases, so I'll pick the best case to put the runner into and put that out in on the shelf and see if it'll sell. (Antique shop) I had one of the New Havens "explode" on me, the strike spring broke and I'm missing a gear. Did it overnight, probably a good thing I wasn't holding it or something.

This Waterbury is the first one I've had that doesn't "Just work" with a good clean. Well, my Hotchkiss too, but that's my scary wooden movement that I'm half afraid to look at in fear it'll break another tooth. I'm not sure if the brass cable I used needed to be annealed or something, or if I should have used string. I do know there were pieces of brass cable in the drums that someone had "grafted" string to, so I assumed the brass was original.

That's another post.
 

Randyd

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Your suspension rod looks a little suspect as well. If the joint where the ribbon meets the rod is loose or partially broken you can lose power there as well.

Randy