Waterbury movement stops at same place on escape wheel

[R. Croswell]

It is possible that by all your working on the escape wheel that the clock will now run more easily.
However, I might have missed it but did you do work on the lantern pinion of the escape wheel?
Sure some clocks do need every bush replaced but if a clock comes in with all bushes replaced and still not working despite someone believing that more oil could fix the issue, it should be clear that the original issue was still unrepaired?
I did note that though you said the clock had been fully bushed, that the bush fanatic hadn't bushed the verge pivots.

I would add that just because someone previously installed a bunch of bushings does not guarantee that the bushings were installed properly.

RC

 

[HotCzech46]

I guess I'm not finished with this thread yet, LOL. It ran for two days. I stopped it to fix the strike train (simple adjustment) and started it again. It ran for almost a day. This time it stopped completely. I'm glad it did, because I was able to diagnose the problem. I checked every wheel in the time train, including the escape wheel, and they were all loose with plenty of endplay and would rock back and forth. I could put just slight pressure on the fourth wheel and on the third wheel and they would make the escape wheel rotate easily. However, the second wheel was locked up. Tight. I could pull it backwards just a bit and when I let go of it, it would move forward, showing that there was plenty of power from the mainspring on the second wheel. The two wheels associated with the motion works had endplay and rotated back and forth freely. Minute hand could be rotated as well. Strike mechanism worked just fine. So -- I started really looking into why the second wheel was locked up. Pictures attached show the story. I knew the click spring was just slightly loose on the click and it looked like the end of the click spring where it held the click was possibly rubbing on the second wheel. I fixed that by just tightening it up and checked to make sure there was clearance. Not perfect but it cleared the second wheel. This time, I discovered that the second wheel hung up on the other end of the click spring. It wedged up against the top of the click spring and stopped the clock completely.
At the last meeting of the local chapter, I discussed the click spring replacement with others, and the speaker was actually showing his Waterbury calendar clock he worked on. He showed me the click springs that Timesavers sent him when he ordered them for a Waterbury clock. Nothing like the original click springs and he did not use them. Now I understand why Timesavers sent those. They apparently send you a new click that has a slot in it, with a rivet and a new wire spring, as opposed to the flat leaf spring like the original. That wire spring is about a third of the thickness of the original flat leaf spring. However, my search of Timesavers did not show any click springs or repair kits for a Waterbury clock. I found a replacement for sale on Griffin's Clock Parts, but I can't tell if it will work. It is also not the flat leaf spring, but a wire - CLICK SPRINGS WATERBURY - GRIFFEN'S CLOCK PARTS AND SUPPLIES LLC (griffensclocks.com). I have seen posts on this forum for this very issue, but it appears people just make new click springs out of old mainsprings. I don't have any old mainsprings (still a newbie!). I understand I could use a hacksaw blade. However, the spring is bent into a circle. Can you do that with hardened steel, like from a hacksaw blade, without it breaking? Or do you have to heat it to bend it and then quench it to reharden it?
Looks like I'll be replacing the click spring with the new model. Worst part is taking that clock apart again for about the 7th time, LOL.
I am also still trying to figure out how this could have happened. I thought maybe the second wheel wore down at the pivot and let it drop against the click spring, but that would have allowed extra endplay and it would not have "locked up". Of course, I can't tell for sure if the click spring is the original, or if it was replaced with something that was too wide. More curiosity here than anything else. I know I first just have to solve the problem.
Last question - could I just shave down the existing click spring to increase the clearance to the second wheel? I might be able to do that without taking the clock apart again.
roughbarked - you are right. He bushed everything but the top escape wheel pivot. Probably because it was on the raised protrusion. However, it is not worn and still looks good.
Willie -- I still think the Verge is probably not the original and not the right one. However, the clock ran great for two days. Looking at the case and the markings on it, it is possible they designed this clock for a wider pendulum movement. I'm just guessing here but the fact that it ran so well makes me question whether replacing the verge is really necessary.

 

[R. Croswell]

It is obvious that the spring is too wide for the space available in the photo, but the important question is; is the spring too wide, or is space too narrow? Check that the second wheel isn't bent, is it that tight all the way around 360 degrees? Same question for the main wheel. I guess you will need to remove the mainspring and put only the great wheel and 2nd wheel in place and see if the space remains constant as the wheels turn, becomes greater and lesser indicating that one or both wheels are bent. Then check the main wheel bushings; these are often overlooked but if they are excessively loose the main wheel can be forced to "cock up" and bind the 2nd wheel.

If the click spring, you have is in one piece and otherwise works and is secure in place, you should not have to replace it. If it really is wider than it is supposed to be, you should be able to grind a little off. I would not do that with the clock assembled because of the abrasive dust and metal particles.

RC

 

[Bohemian Bill]

I guess I'm not finished with this thread yet, LOL. It ran for two days. I stopped it to fix the strike train (simple adjustment) and started it again. It ran for almost a day. This time it stopped completely. I'm glad it did, because I was able to diagnose the problem. I checked every wheel in the time train, including the escape wheel, and they were all loose with plenty of endplay and would rock back and forth. I could put just slight pressure on the fourth wheel and on the third wheel and they would make the escape wheel rotate easily. However, the second wheel was locked up. Tight. I could pull it backwards just a bit and when I let go of it, it would move forward, showing that there was plenty of power from the mainspring on the second wheel. The two wheels associated with the motion works had endplay and rotated back and forth freely. Minute hand could be rotated as well. Strike mechanism worked just fine. So -- I started really looking into why the second wheel was locked up. Pictures attached show the story. I knew the click spring was just slightly loose on the click and it looked like the end of the click spring where it held the click was possibly rubbing on the second wheel. I fixed that by just tightening it up and checked to make sure there was clearance. Not perfect but it cleared the second wheel. This time, I discovered that the second wheel hung up on the other end of the click spring. It wedged up against the top of the click spring and stopped the clock completely.
At the last meeting of the local chapter, I discussed the click spring replacement with others, and the speaker was actually showing his Waterbury calendar clock he worked on. He showed me the click springs that Timesavers sent him when he ordered them for a Waterbury clock. Nothing like the original click springs and he did not use them. Now I understand why Timesavers sent those. They apparently send you a new click that has a slot in it, with a rivet and a new wire spring, as opposed to the flat leaf spring like the original. That wire spring is about a third of the thickness of the original flat leaf spring. However, my search of Timesavers did not show any click springs or repair kits for a Waterbury clock. I found a replacement for sale on Griffin's Clock Parts, but I can't tell if it will work. It is also not the flat leaf spring, but a wire - CLICK SPRINGS WATERBURY - GRIFFEN'S CLOCK PARTS AND SUPPLIES LLC (griffensclocks.com). I have seen posts on this forum for this very issue, but it appears people just make new click springs out of old mainsprings. I don't have any old mainsprings (still a newbie!). I understand I could use a hacksaw blade. However, the spring is bent into a circle. Can you do that with hardened steel, like from a hacksaw blade, without it breaking? Or do you have to heat it to bend it and then quench it to reharden it?
Looks like I'll be replacing the click spring with the new model. Worst part is taking that clock apart again for about the 7th time, LOL.
I am also still trying to figure out how this could have happened. I thought maybe the second wheel wore down at the pivot and let it drop against the click spring, but that would have allowed extra endplay and it would not have "locked up". Of course, I can't tell for sure if the click spring is the original, or if it was replaced with something that was too wide. More curiosity here than anything else. I know I first just have to solve the problem.
Last question - could I just shave down the existing click spring to increase the clearance to the second wheel? I might be able to do that without taking the clock apart again.
roughbarked - you are right. He bushed everything but the top escape wheel pivot. Probably because it was on the raised protrusion. However, it is not worn and still looks good.
Willie -- I still think the Verge is probably not the original and not the right one. However, the clock ran great for two days. Looking at the case and the markings on it, it is possible they designed this clock for a wider pendulum movement. I'm just guessing here but the fact that it ran so well makes me question whether replacing the verge is really necessary.
View attachment 714327 View attachment 714328

HI David..Look like you finally found the evidence of the the culprit, too thick past homemade replacement click spring, that sometimes rub the second wheel.when the endshake move in that direction. A perfect storm that drives us insane trying to troubleshoot. That is good that you have patience and did not give up.
You will have to take the movement apart one more time , which is good for practice for new students . You might thin that existing click spring with a small hand stones or diamond laps which can be purchase at Harber freight. If you have a Dremel rotary tool with a stone bur which you can purchase at your local Home depot. You must wash all the abrasive dust off when you are done like RC said. Bill

 

[Willie X]

The power loss to the escapement was at a 60° interval. That can only happen with a problem at the escape wheel pinion which has trundles at 60°. So, this was your original power loss and will still need to be addressed, along with the new one you found and the remaining escapement troubles ... You're not 'out of the woods' yet. Willie X

 

[HotCzech46]

Thanks, everyone. I did as you suggested and ground down the click spring just slightly. Used my Dremel with a stone grinding wheel at the slowest speed. I checked the Great Wheel and the second wheel, and they work fine. The endplay on the second wheel looks to be identical to the rest of the wheels and neither the arbor nor the pivots are bent. Spins smoothly on its own. I know heating up spring steel is bad news and can take out the rigidity, so I did it slowly, not letting it heat up. Clock is back together and working fine. I was afraid to take too much off the click spring. Worried it might not keep the click in place if it was too small. I really want to replace it, and with the narrow space on this clock, I think putting in the wire click spring like I see on Gilbert's and some other clocks I have worked on would seem to be the safest route. It makes sense why Timesavers sent out that setup. I want to ensure the problem does not come up again in the future. Right now, it is working.

Willie - I think I solved the escape wheel problem last time around by polishing the wheel and the pivots and making sure all of the time train wheels spun freely with nothing else installed but the one wheel. That escape wheel is as smooth as it is going to get. I think that cured the initial problem with it stopping at the same place. It allowed the clock to run for two days until the click spring hung up the second wheel. I adjusted the beat, and it is running smoothly again now. I don't think the escape wheel stopping in the same place is any longer a problem. Even when it stopped this time, it did not stop at that particular tooth on the escape wheel.
David

 

[Willie X]

Fixing the problem with the dragging click spring increased the available power so your clock can now 'plow through' the obvious problems in the upper train. This is often mentioned by RC. I call it the ole "double whammy". It's really not a big deal when the clock belongs to you, but if you are in the clock repair business, it's an automatic 'come back' and definitely un-good.

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

...... Clock is back together and working fine. I was afraid to take too much off the click spring. Worried it might not keep the click in place if it was too small. I really want to replace it, and with the narrow space on this clock, I think putting in the wire click spring like I see on Gilbert's and some other clocks I have worked on would seem to be the safest route.

If the ratchet wheel is in good condition, and the tip of the click is properly shaped it doesn't require brute force to keep the click in place. The force of the mainspring against the click will lock it in place. The click spring only need to keep the click in position until it takes the load of the main spring. Don't try to use one of the round wire click springs with a click designed to use a flat spring like the one you have. You will need to replace the click to with one that has a slot to accept the flattened end of the wire click spring. You will also need to plan how you will attach the wire click spring - there are several options. If the flat spring you have is secure and not cracked (or previously "repaired"), and you have fixed the clearance problem, I would consider keeping it all original.

As for the ew stopping at the same spot, time will tell. Give it 2 or 3 weeks before pronouncing everything well.

RC