Waterbury movement stops at same place on escape wheel

HotCzech46

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Working on a Waterbury clock. When I got it, the amount of oil on it was unbelievable. Actually, pooled in spots. Dismantled it and cleaned it thoroughly. Someone before me bushed every pivot hole and they all appear to be in great shape. Put it back together and oiled it. Sparingly, as I have had drummed into my head. Before putting in the mainsprings, I put the timing chain alone back together and checked that every wheel spun freely and there was good drop on every one of them. Nothing binding and no pivot holes worn out. Got it all reassembled, and the strike chain works well, but the clock stops after about two or three rounds of the escape wheel. 99% of the time, it stops in the same spot. I marked the tooth on the escape wheel with a red mark so you can see it in the attached video.
Trying to troubleshoot what is wrong before I go and try to correct something that does not need it. David Goodman in his "This Old Clock" book states that the primary cause is a bent tooth on the escape wheel. Per the videos and pictures attached, I don't see this. His second suggestion is to open up the center distance slightly (my next move unless advised otherwise here). He also says that if the clock stops and neither pallet is touching a tooth, then the problem is there is no power being applied to the escapement. I think I ruled this out because when it is stopped, an escape wheel tooth is touching the lever. If I rotate the escape wheel slightly in the opposite direction and let it loose, it will move back against the lever. It appears that this is sufficient to show that the escapement is getting power, right?
The picture just shows a closeup of the escape wheel. The video shows the clock stopping on the same tooth. Video is shorter than normal since clock will run several turns of the escape wheel before it stops.
Thanks!
IMG_6473.JPG
Waterbury clock shows stopping on same tooth
 

HotCzech46

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Forgot to add second video showing escape wheel pushing forward when clock is stopped. It is attached.
 

Mike Mall

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Forgot to add second video showing escape wheel pushing forward when clock is stopped. It is attached.
Maybe a video of the escape wheel in action, and coming to a stop will be more help?
Timing chain? :)
 

Mike Mall

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I have had a crutch too far forward on the pendulum hanger cause this same thing - it just stops at the weakest spot. So make sure the hanger is centered in the hoop of the crutch.
 

kinsler33

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He means the time train, as in gear train. "Strike chain" means strike train. The escape wheel is getting some torque, but probably not enough. Let down the mainsprings so that the wheels rattle freely. Then go through the movement wheel by wheel and see if you can find the one that was bushed too tightly, which is probably your problem. Hold the movement with the wheels facing the floor and lift each wheel and let it drop. If it's tight in its pivots, it must be removed and the pivot holes reamed out. Clocks have to rattle a bit to run properly,.
 
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HotCzech46

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Mike Mall, there is a video link below the picture in my original post showing the wheel stopping.
 

Mike Mall

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Mike Mall, there is a video link below the picture in my original post showing the wheel stopping.
Sorry I saw the second video link, but didn't notice the link below the picture.
It looks like that one tooth is a little taller than the rest, it catches on both the entrance, and exit. Lowering the verge a smidge might be all it needs.
Wait to see what the gang suggests though.
 

Vernon

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Look at those tooth tips again. It looks like the one you marked and 4th tooth to the left are bent at the tip.
Vernon
 

Vernon

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I'm going to step out on a limb and say that your pallets need to span 7 and a half teeth.
Vernon
 

HotCzech46

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I have looked at those teeth a hundred times and I go back and forth as to whether they are bent or too long. I took a better magnifier shot and attached the photos. Put some white paper behind the wheel to make it clearer.

Vernon, I think the span is 6 and a half teeth. I have not changed anything on the Verge so the lever is just the way it was.
I hate to take it apart again but it makes sense that maybe fixing the tips of those two teeth will solve the problem. I wonder if I can shave them without removing the wheel. That clock is a bear to put back together. My mainspring retainers are round, not flat, and you cannot put the time train wheels back into the clock without tying the mainspring out of the way with wire. Otherwise, the width of the retainer interferes with the second wheel and it is impossible to get that wheel lined up and back into place. Took me forever to figure out why. The pin that holds the mainspring away from the second wheel works fine with just the mainspring in the clock, but won't work with the retainer in place.
IMG_6484.JPG IMG_6485.JPG
 

wow

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I have had a crutch too far forward on the pendulum hanger cause this same thing - it just stops at the weakest spot. So make sure the hanger is centered in the hoop of the crutch.
I have looked at those teeth a hundred times and I go back and forth as to whether they are bent or too long. I took a better magnifier shot and attached the photos. Put some white paper behind the wheel to make it clearer.

Vernon, I think the span is 6 and a half teeth. I have not changed anything on the Verge so the lever is just the way it was.
I hate to take it apart again but it makes sense that maybe fixing the tips of those two teeth will solve the problem. I wonder if I can shave them without removing the wheel. That clock is a bear to put back together. My mainspring retainers are round, not flat, and you cannot put the time train wheels back into the clock without tying the mainspring out of the way with wire. Otherwise, the width of the retainer interferes with the second wheel and it is impossible to get that wheel lined up and back into place. Took me forever to figure out why. The pin that holds the mainspring away from the second wheel works fine with just the mainspring in the clock, but won't work with the retainer in place.
View attachment 713198 View attachment 713199
Try using a pair of flat jawed pliers and carefully straighten all teeth while still on the clock. Use magnification. It’s hard to see in the photo, but it looks like more than one tip is bent. Also, be sure the saddle is snug on the verge pin. You can tighten those two saddle holes using a crows foot and a small ball end punch.
 

Tbucket

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There appears to be too much slop in the hoop at the end of the crutch which could be limiting the pendulum swing a bit.
 

Jonas

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It could be a combination of things: In your first video, the clock sounds terribly out of beat, and it would look like the one tooth wants to catch.
If you would set the clock properly in-beat (even timing on both the tick and the tock) it may be able to overcome the snagging tooth. If not, you could take just a tiny amount of material off of the tip of that tooth.
 

R. Croswell

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There appears to be too much slop in the hoop at the end of the crutch which could be limiting the pendulum swing a bit.
I agree, this is an obvious issue that needs to be taken care of.

I've seen escape wheels a lot worse than this one and still run. Old escape wheels are seldom perfect, so it is likely that when it stops it will stop at the same place. If one of the teeth is snagging on one of the pallets, you have one of two problems: the verge is too close to the escape wheel, or the distance between the pallets is incorrect. Can't tell much from the video where the ew is being turned backward and released. A video showing the action at the escape wheel as the crutch is moved very slowly by hand would be helpful, as would a video of the clock running without assistance until it stops.

A couple other thoughts, most similar Waterbury movements with this many teeth on the escape wheel use a verge that spans 7, 8, or more teeth. Can't help wondering if someone has replaced this verge with one setup to span fewer teeth. There is no hard rule, but a general "rule of thumb" is that the verge should span about 1/4 of the escape wheel teeth. Spanning fewer teeth will cause the clock to have to "work harder" and result is a wider pendulum swing. Also, if the lift angle when the tooth meets the pallet is too aggressive, it may require more power than this movement can provide.
Most similar American movements with recoil escapement by other makers typically use mainsprings that were 0.018" thick. Many Waterbury movements had much weaker springs (often only 0.014" thick) so these clocks are not at all over-powered, so they can be less tolerant of wear and imperfections in the escape wheel etc. a 0.016" thick main spring will allow a little more room error when dealing with a clock with worn parts when the original springs had little more than enough power to begin. (Usually, I do not advise installing stronger springs to "fix" power problems.)

RC
 

HotCzech46

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IMG 6487


The first link is another video of the movement working until it stops on the same tooth.
The second link is showing just moving the pendulum and crutch back and forth by hand.

If I count it right, the escape wheel has 36 teeth. Would a pallet normally cover 6 1/2 teeth like this one or 7 1/2 teeth as Vernon suggests? I tried to follow the pallet design for recoil escapements as set out in Mark Hedrick's online book, but this lever is way off according to what his diagrams show. Hard to tell because his drawings show pallets installed in the opposite direction. The pallets are reversed, so I am trying to figure out which angles are Fe and Fi and Fp and am now thinking the verge may actually be installed backwards. It gets confusing. Hedrick shows the 90 degree side of the lever as being the entry pallet and the curved side as being the exit pallet. On this clock it appears to be the opposite. Is that actually the case?
 

HotCzech46

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I think I answered my own question. Hedrick's drawings are upside down as compared to this clock and when I finally flip everything over, I think the setup is correct. Not sure yet about the angles and whether the 6 1/2 teeth spacing is correct. I will start straightening out the teeth and go from there.
 

Willie X

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Not "the teeth" ... just one tooth. And, as already mentioned, a slight adjustment to the pallet width or depth might be all that is necessary.

Most old clocks will 'stop on a tooth' when something is to tight/close in the pallet to escape-wheel relationship. As things get closer and closer, it has to stop somewhere.

Wear at the escape-wheel pivots and pallet saddle can also cause problems here.

Try using iron tie wire to capture the springs. It's better in several ways. The size of the captured spring should be large, about 1/4" smaller than the main wheel is usually good.

Willie X
 

R. Croswell

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I think I answered my own question. Hedrick's drawings are upside down as compared to this clock and when I finally flip everything over, I think the setup is correct. Not sure yet about the angles and whether the 6 1/2 teeth spacing is correct. I will start straightening out the teeth and go from there.
You are moving the crutch too fast to see clearly, but it looks like drops are not the same off of each pallet. I would say increase the difference between the pallets just slightly Then reset the verge cock and see how it goes. Always measure the pallet spacing before making any change. You can only span whole teeth, the extra is the space for lock and drop. I would expect a 36 tooth ew to be more happier with a verge spanning 8 teeth. You can’t increase the span from 6 to to 8 by opening the pallets. It would require a different verge with more reach to maintain proper lift angles. If that verge does not show any signs of rutting or wear it is probably an incorrect replacement.

RC
 

Bohemian Bill

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Working on a Waterbury clock. When I got it, the amount of oil on it was unbelievable. Actually, pooled in spots. Dismantled it and cleaned it thoroughly. Someone before me bushed every pivot hole and they all appear to be in great shape. Put it back together and oiled it. Sparingly, as I have had drummed into my head. Before putting in the mainsprings, I put the timing chain alone back together and checked that every wheel spun freely and there was good drop on every one of them. Nothing binding and no pivot holes worn out. Got it all reassembled, and the strike chain works well, but the clock stops after about two or three rounds of the escape wheel. 99% of the time, it stops in the same spot. I marked the tooth on the escape wheel with a red mark so you can see it in the attached video.
Trying to troubleshoot what is wrong before I go and try to correct something that does not need it. David Goodman in his "This Old Clock" book states that the primary cause is a bent tooth on the escape wheel. Per the videos and pictures attached, I don't see this. His second suggestion is to open up the center distance slightly (my next move unless advised otherwise here). He also says that if the clock stops and neither pallet is touching a tooth, then the problem is there is no power being applied to the escapement. I think I ruled this out because when it is stopped, an escape wheel tooth is touching the lever. If I rotate the escape wheel slightly in the opposite direction and let it loose, it will move back against the lever. It appears that this is sufficient to show that the escapement is getting power, right?
The picture just shows a closeup of the escape wheel. The video shows the clock stopping on the same tooth. Video is shorter than normal since clock will run several turns of the escape wheel before it stops.
Thanks!
View attachment 713182
Waterbury clock shows stopping on same tooth
Hi HotCzech46..Whenever I have a problem with recoil or half deadbeat clock escapements I go back and reread and follow the instruction in my Steven Conover's book "Clock Repair Basics" It have step by step instruction using a dial measuring calipers. Where are you located in Texas. There are good educational NAWCC Chapters which have good clock classes in the Dallas Fort Worth and Houston areas.. Bill
 

HotCzech46

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Bohemian Bill, thanks. (We probably have relatives in the long, dark past, LOL. I was always told Czech's were just poor relatives of the Bohemians). Per RC's suggestion on another thread, I have joined NAWCC as a sustaining member and have joined the local Chapter 139 here in Houston. First meeting with the local chapter is this coming Saturday. I'll bring this movement to the meeting with me. I have Steve Conover's book "Clock Repair Basics" (thanks to RC's suggestion from a prior thread) and will go over those recoil procedures again.
What I have done is break out my microscope to get a better picture. I don't think that tooth is bent or longer than the others. In the link below I put a piece of paper below the escape wheel with a straight line drawn on it and then rotated the escape wheel so that each tooth could be compared to the line. Nothing looks out of whack to me, but I welcome any input.
IMG 6495
 
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R. Croswell

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What I have done is break out my microscope to get a better picture. I don't think that tooth is bent or longer than the others. In the link below I put a piece of paper below the escape wheel with a straight line drawn on it and then rotated the escape wheel so that each tooth could be compared to the line. Nothing looks out of whack to me, but I welcome any input.
IMG 6495
Nice microphotography. There are some irregularities in the tooth tip. some are a bit wider; some tend to curl a bit in one direction or another, but nothing horrible. It is the space between the tooth tips that's important. It is just the tip that dopes the work and I doubt that you will ever get it perfect. The usual instruction (unfortunately incorrect) for recoil escapements is to keep the verge as close as possible to the escape wheel without it hanging up to maximize the locking on each pallet and maximize the pendulum amplitude. In that state, little irregularities can cause mischief and grief. Better to have a bit less lock and the extra clearance will allow the small imperfections to pass. You want equal drops off of each pallet (the ew turns exactly the same amount one each tick regardless of which way the pendulum is moving) for the clock to run smoothly. The distance between the pallets mostly affects the drop off of the entrance pallet, while the position of the verge cock (how close the verge is to the ew) mostly affects the drop off the exit pallet - there's a lot of interaction. So adjust for equal drops while maintaining a good lock, not maximum lock on the edge of hanging up. I still think this verge should span another couple teeth.

RC
 
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Bohemian Bill

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Bohemian Bill, thanks. (We probably have relatives in the long, dark past, LOL. I was always told Czech's were just poor relatives of the Bohemians). Per RC's suggestion on another thread, I have joined NAWCC as a sustaining member and have joined the local Chapter 139 here in Houston. First meeting with the local chapter is this coming Saturday. I'll bring this movement to the meeting with me. I have Steve Conover's book "Clock Repair Basics" (thanks to RC's suggestion from a prior thread) and will go over those recoil procedures again.
What I have done is break out my microscope to get a better picture. I don't think that tooth is bent or longer than the others. In the link below I put a piece of paper below the escape wheel with a straight line drawn on it and then rotated the escape wheel so that each tooth could be compared to the line. Nothing looks out of whack to me, but I welcome any input.
IMG 6495
Hi David.....My father was born near Prague in 1904 ....I am retired and live near Waco and member of Chapter 124....but back to your issue.. First.make sure the verge pivot is 90 degrees square to the riveted brass tab if not take pliers to straighten. I would recheck that if that was your issue. If not, you would need to move the recoil verge away from escape wheel so ever so slightly. I would take a very long little screwdriver or 1/8 inch diameter brass or steel rod 6 inches long to make a punch or if you don't have much in tools, need to cut a six inch straight portion of a coat hanger and lightly tap the thin edge of the brass tab for the recoil verge away from escape wheel. Before you start tapping with a really small hammer, Mark with a fine tip sharpy marker the outline position of the riveted brass tab because some are really tight and some are not. You may have to tap it back a little when the escape wheel will spin freely or skipping when the adjustment is out too far. I hope this helps. Sometimes you may have to do it several times to get it right. I hope this will help..Bill Andrle
 
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HotCzech46

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First, as an aside, Bill, my grandfather came over from Prague in the 1800's when he was two years old. I am third generation American. Born in Shiner, Texas, and yes, I love Shiner Bock. Spent several years in Waco during law school. Loved sailing my sunfish boat on your lake. Retired now in Seabrook, Texas. David

On to the clock. Before adjusting the verge away from the escape wheel, I took one more video to show the drop. I moved the verge by hand and did it slowly, as RC requested, so hopefully this will help. It appears to me that the drop of the entry pallet is quite a bit more than at the exit pallet.

Moving Verge by hand to show drop

Maybe a bigger problem is that I noticed when the red marked tooth was involved, the EW paused and did not move forward. At the end of the video, you can see the verge rotating back and forth between the teeth, without touching anything, and the EW is not moving. Maybe this is not an issue since the pendulum is not installed and it is just freewheeling, but shouldn't the EW have some power to it at all times sufficient to push it against the Verge?

I also went onto timesavers to check on a replacement verge. I measured my existing one and it is about 0.602 inches between the tips. Probably a 0.580 verge someone installed. Checking timesavers, they sell a 0.720-inch verge that is designed for a Waterbury clock (among others) with a 36 tooth EW (my clock also has a 36 tooth EW).

Even sticking with the existing verge, following the procedures set out by Steven Conover, I get the following:
1. 6 teeth spanned by the pallet
2. Add 2 teeth = 8 teeth
3. Mark 8 teeth on the EW
4. Measure tip to tip for the 8 teeth - 0.774
5. Subtract one drop (0.059") to get 0.715"
This is far off from the current measurement of the verge tip to tip: 0.602"
I know all these calculations are just to get a replacement verge into the range of what would be required. Unless I am really missing something, it does not appear the existing verge is that far off from what is required. (It is interesting, however, that if I measured 9 teeth, and dropped one, I would get 0.744" which is almost exactly the size of the 0.720" verge sold by timesavers.)
I will try to open the center point distance from the verge to the escape wheel to see if that gets things to working. That rivet is tight, so it is going to take some force to move it. I am thinking a small finishing nail set with small hammer will do it. We will see. Unless the pause in the EW is a separate problem, I will also order the wider verge from timesavers. New experience. Never fashioned a crutch loop before.
 

Willie X

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You have a power loss problem there, probably a bent pivot on the escape wheel, or zero end play, or a mishaped pivot hole ... could be other things too.

And, you have way way to much drop onto the entrance pallet, as already stated by others. You will probably need to raise the pallet (first) AND then widen the pallet spacing a bit but don't do both at the same time!

It will be many times more difficult to make a new pallet assembly than to repair the one you have. :oops:

Willie X
 

R. Croswell

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I agree with Willie; you have way too much drop off of the exit pallet (onto the entrance pallet) AND you definitely have a power problem - no power at all to the escape wheel at one point, but it has nothing to do with that red tooth.

There are several ways to approach this, but I suggest that you begin by ordering one or two verges from timesavers that span a larger number of teeth. Yes, you can "fix" the one you have so the drops will be even, but you can't fix it to span more teeth without really screwing up the angles. I would do nothing to the existing verge - save it as it is and you can always go back top what you have now. Keep in mind that most of these replacement verges will need some finishing and adjustment to work.

While you are waiting for the new verge, go after the power problem.
1) With the mainsprings completely let down - both main wheels slack in either direction and the ew- red tooth in the no power position:

a.) Put the movement back side down and use a small probe to lift each wheel upward to the top plate and let it drop. There must be some end play (end shake), and it must drop quickly under its own weight when released.

b.) Put the movement face down and repeat "a" above

2) Disassemble the movement and do as Willie suggested - look for bent pivots and "mishaped pivot hole". If you stand the arbor up in the pivot hole and tilt the plate north, east, south, and west, it should tilt the same amount in each direction, otherwise the pivot hole is crooked or the pivot is bent.

3) After inspecting and cleaning, and fixing any problems found, consider assembling just the time train parts for testing. With the verge removed, wind the mainspring just a few clicks until the wheels begin to turn - usually only two or three clicks needed. Does it stop at the same place? Repeat the test with the movement fact up, face down and upright.

4) See if it will run. Don't be afraid to adjust the verge cock, but just a couple thousandths of an inch can be the difference between go and no go, so be gentle with the hammer and punch.

RC
 

Willie X

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Hot,

That might be the best escapement video I've ever seen and I've seen quite a few!

Fix your power problem and widen the tip to tip spacing of your pallets (about 2) thou ... it will run like the wind. It will still have serious escapement problems but stopping won't be one of them.

Willie X
 
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Bohemian Bill

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First, as an aside, Bill, my grandfather came over from Prague in the 1800's when he was two years old. I am third generation American. Born in Shiner, Texas, and yes, I love Shiner Bock. Spent several years in Waco during law school. Loved sailing my sunfish boat on your lake. Retired now in Seabrook, Texas. David

On to the clock. Before adjusting the verge away from the escape wheel, I took one more video to show the drop. I moved the verge by hand and did it slowly, as RC requested, so hopefully this will help. It appears to me that the drop of the entry pallet is quite a bit more than at the exit pallet.

Moving Verge by hand to show drop

Maybe a bigger problem is that I noticed when the red marked tooth was involved, the EW paused and did not move forward. At the end of the video, you can see the verge rotating back and forth between the teeth, without touching anything, and the EW is not moving. Maybe this is not an issue since the pendulum is not installed and it is just freewheeling, but shouldn't the EW have some power to it at all times sufficient to push it against the Verge?

I also went onto timesavers to check on a replacement verge. I measured my existing one and it is about 0.602 inches between the tips. Probably a 0.580 verge someone installed. Checking timesavers, they sell a 0.720-inch verge that is designed for a Waterbury clock (among others) with a 36 tooth EW (my clock also has a 36 tooth EW).

Even sticking with the existing verge, following the procedures set out by Steven Conover, I get the following:
1. 6 teeth spanned by the pallet
2. Add 2 teeth = 8 teeth
3. Mark 8 teeth on the EW
4. Measure tip to tip for the 8 teeth - 0.774
5. Subtract one drop (0.059") to get 0.715"
This is far off from the current measurement of the verge tip to tip: 0.602"
I know all these calculations are just to get a replacement verge into the range of what would be required. Unless I am really missing something, it does not appear the existing verge is that far off from what is required. (It is interesting, however, that if I measured 9 teeth, and dropped one, I would get 0.744" which is almost exactly the size of the 0.720" verge sold by timesavers.)
I will try to open the center point distance from the verge to the escape wheel to see if that gets things to working. That rivet is tight, so it is going to take some force to move it. I am thinking a small finishing nail set with small hammer will do it. We will see. Unless the pause in the EW is a separate problem, I will also order the wider verge from timesavers. New experience. Never fashioned a crutch loop before.
Hi David....Our kin folks were probably neighbors in Prague. But, since you brought up the subject of Zima Pivo, I cannot eat a steak at our local Lone Star Tavern without having a couple frozen mugs of Shiner bock. David in my opinion between Willie X and RC they are the some of the most experienced clockmaker repairmen here on the forum. I am kinda a shade tree clock repairer but seems to fix them in the long run. If you are heading North thru Waco on I-35 and still needing help look me up.. PM me if you want to gab or need help... Bill
 

HotCzech46

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To say I am totally frustrated would be an understatement. First, I took it all apart, used crocus cloth to really clean the escape wheel and touched up a couple of teeth that looked like they were not 100%. Then I cleaned (again) all of the pivots, using the crocus to shine them up and make sure there were no groves and inspected them to make sure none were bent. Inspected all the pivot holes to make sure they were clean as well. I had already checked all of them to make sure none were "wobbled" out of round. (Not sure that is a correct phrase. LOL). Put the clock back together and it was working very well. Maybe not 100% and on occasion it would still act like it had a power problem. However, I screwed up the arrangement of the strike mechanism and had to take it all apart again to put things right. Put it back together and it would not run at all. No power even though mainspring was fully wound up. I had already noticed that the click spring on the time train mainspring was not 100% but I thought it was OK. It was not asserting a lot of pressure holding in the click. When it would not run at all, I really started looking for the problem and I think I found it. In the attached photo, you can see that the click spring is not bent enough to put proper pressure on the click, but worse, with this clock design, as the spring loosened up, it started rubbing up against the second wheel. The spacing above the click spring between it and the second wheel is exceedingly small and you can see that the end of the click spring is actually bent outward where it has stopped the second wheel from turning.
Does not make sense to do anything else until I replace the click spring.
IMG_6507.JPG
 

Bohemian Bill

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To say I am totally frustrated would be an understatement. First, I took it all apart, used crocus cloth to really clean the escape wheel and touched up a couple of teeth that looked like they were not 100%. Then I cleaned (again) all of the pivots, using the crocus to shine them up and make sure there were no groves and inspected them to make sure none were bent. Inspected all the pivot holes to make sure they were clean as well. I had already checked all of them to make sure none were "wobbled" out of round. (Not sure that is a correct phrase. LOL). Put the clock back together and it was working very well. Maybe not 100% and on occasion it would still act like it had a power problem. However, I screwed up the arrangement of the strike mechanism and had to take it all apart again to put things right. Put it back together and it would not run at all. No power even though mainspring was fully wound up. I had already noticed that the click spring on the time train mainspring was not 100% but I thought it was OK. It was not asserting a lot of pressure holding in the click. When it would not run at all, I really started looking for the problem and I think I found it. In the attached photo, you can see that the click spring is not bent enough to put proper pressure on the click, but worse, with this clock design, as the spring loosened up, it started rubbing up against the second wheel. The spacing above the click spring between it and the second wheel is exceedingly small and you can see that the end of the click spring is actually bent outward where it has stopped the second wheel from turning.
Does not make sense to do anything else until I replace the click spring.
View attachment 713410
Hi David..You may already know this but when I troubleshoot clock problems I would start from scratch again and only assemble either the time side or the strike side side and observe the wheels and inspect for trueness or wobble, freedom and gear meshing. I was taught in chapter 124 kitchen clock twenty plus years ago class to clean all wheels, parts clean the mainspring ( cleaning mainspring by using a phillips screwdriver in center of mainspring in a vice stretched out the mainspring and rubbing and cleaning with steelwool and solvent and finally lubricate with mainspring lub) and inspect and polish pivots and then trial assemble the wheels on the time side without the mainspring and inspect for endshake ( side to side clearance), pivot freedom ( shake movement to see if wheels move by gravity) and pivot hole wear without the mainspring installed. I would bush any worn pivot holes especially paying attention to the escape wheel pivot hole. I would use my thumb to put pressure on #1 time ( mainspring) wheel to see how much pressure it take to spin the escape wheel. Then I repeat the above for the strike side without the levers installed..
I may draw fire on this but one question did you make any tiny marks on the wheels before initial disassemble on both the time or strike side? I have seen that past repairmen may already mark the wheels with tiny T1, T2, T3,T4 and S1, S2 ,S3, S4 Sometimes some wheels on time side especially T3 and T4 for some makes and models can be so close or identical that can reverse or interchange cause operation issues and drive new student insane.. Make sure the all wheels mesh near the center of the lattern pinions. You should see wear patterns on the lattern pinnion pins. You may already know all this and observed that most strike wheels always have pins and cams and the time side do not have pins and cams attached. I hope this may helps..Bill
 

HotCzech46

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Bill, I have already done the things you mentioned. Twice for the time side. Took the clock apart and installed just the second wheel and the escape wheel to make sure they spun easily in their pivot holes and that they had proper endshake between the plates. Removed them and installed the third wheel to show the same thing and then the fourth wheel to show the same thing. Then put all 4 wheels in to show that they all meshed and spun freely with very little force on the second wheel. That is why I had no explanation for the clock stopping at the same place on the escape wheel time after time. Below are 4 videos showing endshake for each wheel and free spin for each wheel. I lost the video showing them all moving together (would have to take it apart to make that video again) but they all moved together just fine.

Shows proper drop for each wheel in the time train.

Showing free spin of second wheel and escape wheel

Shows free spin on third wheel

Shows free spin on fourth wheel

RC, I agree. The clip spring could explain the clock stopping completely since it removed all power. That is the state it is in right now. However, it really cannot explain the EW stopping on the same tooth. I was thinking maybe the clip spring rubbing against the bottom of the second wheel could explain it, but that makes no sense. Friction on the second wheel would be an almost impossible explanation for the EW stopping on the same tooth.
I attended the Local NAWCC Chapter 139 meeting yesterday. Interesting presentation by a member who completely rebuilt a Waterbury Calendar clock (Crazy, but I'll bet he has hundreds of hours into the work he did). Part of his problems involved fixing the Waterbury click springs and he showed me the parts he bought from timesavers. They won't work. They are not the flat springs like the originals but were round and timesavers supplied new clicks with grooves cut in them to hold the new springs. Replacing the clicks was not something he wanted to tackle and neither do I. He found some he could modify to fit so I am looking into that now.
 

Willie X

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The power loss is on the escape wheel arbor. Could be a bent or worn trundle wire. Maybe the depthing is bad.

Look up 'slow roll' test.

Willie X
 
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R. Croswell

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Bill, I have already done the things you mentioned. Twice for the time side. Took the clock apart and installed just the second wheel and the escape wheel to make sure they spun easily in their pivot holes and that they had proper endshake between the plates. Removed them and installed the third wheel to show the same thing and then the fourth wheel to show the same thing. Then put all 4 wheels in to show that they all meshed and spun freely with very little force on the second wheel. That is why I had no explanation for the clock stopping at the same place on the escape wheel time after time. Below are 4 videos showing endshake for each wheel and free spin for each wheel. I lost the video showing them all moving together (would have to take it apart to make that video again) but they all moved together just fine.

Shows proper drop for each wheel in the time train.

Showing free spin of second wheel and escape wheel

Shows free spin on third wheel

Shows free spin on fourth wheel

RC, I agree. The clip spring could explain the clock stopping completely since it removed all power. That is the state it is in right now. However, it really cannot explain the EW stopping on the same tooth. I was thinking maybe the clip spring rubbing against the bottom of the second wheel could explain it, but that makes no sense. Friction on the second wheel would be an almost impossible explanation for the EW stopping on the same tooth.
I attended the Local NAWCC Chapter 139 meeting yesterday. Interesting presentation by a member who completely rebuilt a Waterbury Calendar clock (Crazy, but I'll bet he has hundreds of hours into the work he did). Part of his problems involved fixing the Waterbury click springs and he showed me the parts he bought from timesavers. They won't work. They are not the flat springs like the originals but were round and timesavers supplied new clicks with grooves cut in them to hold the new springs. Replacing the clicks was not something he wanted to tackle and neither do I. He found some he could modify to fit so I am looking into that now.
You can make these replacement flat click springs from a scrap of an old mainspring. The tricky part is keeping them in place. The originals were a press it that cut into the brass. Not an uncommon problem, Agree, the click spring is not causing the escape wheel to stop at the same place, although it could be responsible for a general loss of power that would cause the clock to stop, and a different defect is causing it to stop in the same place when it was going to stop anyway. Fix the click spring and while it is apart check the things willie mentioned.

RC
 

Bohemian Bill

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Bill, I have already done the things you mentioned. Twice for the time side. Took the clock apart and installed just the second wheel and the escape wheel to make sure they spun easily in their pivot holes and that they had proper endshake between the plates. Removed them and installed the third wheel to show the same thing and then the fourth wheel to show the same thing. Then put all 4 wheels in to show that they all meshed and spun freely with very little force on the second wheel. That is why I had no explanation for the clock stopping at the same place on the escape wheel time after time. Below are 4 videos showing endshake for each wheel and free spin for each wheel. I lost the video showing them all moving together (would have to take it apart to make that video again) but they all moved together just fine.

Shows proper drop for each wheel in the time train.

Showing free spin of second wheel and escape wheel

Shows free spin on third wheel

Shows free spin on fourth wheel

RC, I agree. The clip spring could explain the clock stopping completely since it removed all power. That is the state it is in right now. However, it really cannot explain the EW stopping on the same tooth. I was thinking maybe the clip spring rubbing against the bottom of the second wheel could explain it, but that makes no sense. Friction on the second wheel would be an almost impossible explanation for the EW stopping on the same tooth.
I attended the Local NAWCC Chapter 139 meeting yesterday. Interesting presentation by a member who completely rebuilt a Waterbury Calendar clock (Crazy, but I'll bet he has hundreds of hours into the work he did). Part of his problems involved fixing the Waterbury click springs and he showed me the parts he bought from timesavers. They won't work. They are not the flat springs like the originals but were round and timesavers supplied new clicks with grooves cut in them to hold the new springs. Replacing the clicks was not something he wanted to tackle and neither do I. He found some he could modify to fit so I am looking into that now.
Hi David...I hope you enjoyed the Chapter 139 One Day Show Saturday..Its been a number of years since I have been to a Houston One day show. Great folks down there.
My first antique clock was a Waterberry kitchen clock about thirty years ago that I purchased from an antique store nearby who was my neighbor. It took me a whole week during my vacation figuring out how to get it apart, cleaned assembled and running without any books or training. Later, I found out about Chapter 124 education classes and I took every class offered. Its been many years since I had a chance to overhaul another Waterberry movement until now,
I have been pondering about your problem/s on your movement. So yesterday afternoon, I went through my spare junk movements and found a Waterberry kitchen movement but It had a severely bent escape wheel ( somebody in the past drop something heavy on it) and it had a missing verge & suspension rod,
This is what I experience yesterday. I disassembled and cleaned it. I had to removed the worn grooves on three pivots (both escape wheel and and a T4 ) with a graver on the lathe and polish all the pivots. I also had to bush the three associated pivot holes both on the escape wheel and on T4. I straighten the escape wheel with my machinist vice and parallel jaw pliers and then trued it in my lathe.
I cleaned the mainsprings and noticed these mainsprings are extremely flimsy. I measured the mainsprings and both are .014" inch. Most other kitchen clocks, that I have recently repaired and in the past usually had .016 " and thicker mainsprings. Why did Waterberry are using weaker springs than rest of the manufacturers. But I heard in my past classes that these kitchen movements were well built and overpowered for a reason to run longer with wear and lack of maintenance and abuse. I also notice that all the wheel/s teeth and lattern pinnions were in perfect condition possibly due to less power or either have not been used much.
I assembled the movement and notice the two plates are held together with five short slotted machine screws with shallow recess on post for top plate to slip in. I had trouble getting the top plate to rest all the way down. I had to move/ bend the post slightly to get them close to centering to the holes. I am wondering if some of your later problem you are having that you might not be getting the plates all the way against the post shoulder?
I found a junk verge and use the Conover method for my 40 tooth escape wheel.. The verge spans 7 teeth so I measured 9 teeth .833". So .833 minus .059 = .774" I took the junk verge and stoned and polish new surfaces and adjusted it to .774 inch gap. It has been running okay thru the night without oiling. ..
David do you have a lathe to true the escape wheel and check the teeth?. Your tooth may be possibly a little to high or long and may need to be topped in the lathe so all be the same. My thoughts ..Bill
 

HotCzech46

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Will, I have not straightened it yet, but I have the clock apart again and will do it before going back together.

Bill, I don't have a lathe yet but I have inspected all of the pivots closely to make sure they are straight, not bent, no groves or rough spots, and that the pivot holes are clean and not wore on one side. All of the arbors fit in the holes with just a bit of looseness. I fully understand the problem about the shoulders on the posts. The plates don't fit down until the posts are centered and drop fully into the holes. Waterbury used screws to hold the plates down, rather than the nuts like I have seen on other clocks. A real pain getting them in. The shoulders on the posts make it twice as difficult to reassemble because those shoulders are high enough to almost let the wheels come out of their holes if the posts are not inserted all the way into the plates. I have taken it apart again and worked on it to make sure all of the wheels on the time train turn easily and freely, with endplay. Right now I am working on the strike side. It worked before, but the count lever is bent (not 90 degrees to the count wheel, and the warning and locking levers are not properly adjusted. Someone really worked this clock over in the past. I have repaired the click spring and it appears to be working fine. I am still convinced that the spring was rubbing on the bottom of the second wheel and this was causing some of the power problems. Maybe just enough drag that the clock could just barely run and any friction anywhere else would cause it to stop. I will see when I get it back together.

Thanks for the help.
 

R. Croswell

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Will, I have not straightened it yet, but I have the clock apart again and will do it before going back together.
That should make a big difference.

I fully understand the problem about the shoulders on the posts. The plates don't fit down until the posts are centered and drop fully into the holes. Waterbury used screws to hold the plates down, rather than the nuts like I have seen on other clocks. A real pain getting them in. The shoulders on the posts make it twice as difficult to reassemble because those shoulders are high enough to almost let the wheels come out of their holes if the posts are not inserted all the way into the plates.
That seems to be a Waterbury thing. I have almost the same movement on the bench now except this one does use nuts, but the shoulder posts still make it more difficult. But the snug fitting shoulders do perhaps position the plates a bit more accurately.

I have taken it apart again and worked on it to make sure all of the wheels on the time train turn easily and freely, with endplay.
Wheels can seem to turn "easily and freely" and still not be free enough. It isn't simply a question of binding with "feelable" resistance or turning. Only with experience can you visually assess when it is OK. One test is with the verge removed and the spring slack, see how many clicks of the winding key it takes before the wheels start to move. If all is well, the wheels should start almost immediately - two or three clicks is usually enough.

I have repaired the click spring and it appears to be working fine.
How did you do this?

RTC
 

Willie X

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"free spin" has no meaning at all.

Power transmission has to be near perfect at extremely slow speeds.

Do the 'low power roll' test just mentioned by RC. You can make it even more meaningfull by continuously stopping the escape wheel with your finger.

What you are looking for is often called a 'catch' or 'sticking point'.

The problem is going to be on the escape wheel arbor as already stated.

Willie X
 
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shutterbug

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I didn't read every post in this long thread, but the first photo's show very little clearance on the entry pallet. Moving the verge just a little further from the wheel would help.
 

Mike Mall

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I didn't read every post in this long thread, but the first photo's show very little clearance on the entry pallet. Moving the verge just a little further from the wheel would help.
SB
I thought the same until the video in #23 was posted - there are other problems for sure.
 

kinsler33

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I agree, this is an obvious issue that needs to be taken care of.

I've seen escape wheels a lot worse than this one and still run. Old escape wheels are seldom perfect, so it is likely that when it stops it will stop at the same place. If one of the teeth is snagging on one of the pallets, you have one of two problems: the verge is too close to the escape wheel, or the distance between the pallets is incorrect. Can't tell much from the video where the ew is being turned backward and released. A video showing the action at the escape wheel as the crutch is moved very slowly by hand would be helpful, as would a video of the clock running without assistance until it stops.

A couple other thoughts, most similar Waterbury movements with this many teeth on the escape wheel use a verge that spans 7, 8, or more teeth. Can't help wondering if someone has replaced this verge with one setup to span fewer teeth. There is no hard rule, but a general "rule of thumb" is that the verge should span about 1/4 of the escape wheel teeth. Spanning fewer teeth will cause the clock to have to "work harder" and result is a wider pendulum swing. Also, if the lift angle when the tooth meets the pallet is too aggressive, it may require more power than this movement can provide.
Most similar American movements with recoil escapement by other makers typically use mainsprings that were 0.018" thick. Many Waterbury movements had much weaker springs (often only 0.014" thick) so these clocks are not at all over-powered, so they can be less tolerant of wear and imperfections in the escape wheel etc. a 0.016" thick main spring will allow a little more room error when dealing with a clock with worn parts when the original springs had little more than enough power to begin. (Usually, I do not advise installing stronger springs to "fix" power problems.)

RC
Thank you. I knew some of this, but you've written it out in a very helpful matter. Here's a thought experiment: try laying off clock repair for a year and then come back to it, attacking the pile of clocks you've accumulated. Then keep a log of everything you've forgotten. I found myself stumped on an innocent Ingraham movement: the wheels would not fit. it took quite a while before I realized that I had the wretched thing upside down. I didn't keep a log, either.
 

Mike Mall

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Thank you. I knew some of this, but you've written it out in a very helpful matter. Here's a thought experiment: try laying off clock repair for a year and then come back to it, attacking the pile of clocks you've accumulated. Then keep a log of everything you've forgotten. I found myself stumped on an innocent Ingraham movement: the wheels would not fit. it took quite a while before I realized that I had the wretched thing upside down. I didn't keep a log, either.
You nailed the lack of power at the escape wheel, right out of the gate.
I couldn't see it at full speed, only in the slow-mo video posted later.
Great catch!

The escape wheel loosing power at two precise places, on the same tooth at both pallets, is quite an oddity.
 

HotCzech46

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I have now taken this clock apart six times. LOL. Frustrating but I'll be darned if I was going to let it beat me.
I took the escape wheel and "polished" it, using microscope to take off even tiny burrs or bends on the teeth. Worked over the pivots to also make sure they were spotless and slick, with no bumps or grooves. I then reassembled the movement with just one or two gears at a time to make sure they spun with just a light touch of the finger. Then I put all the gears in except the mainspring to make sure everything was as smooth as I could get it. Finally, I put the movement back together, crossed my fingers, and started it up. No joy. Dang I was unhappy to say the least. Then I noticed that when I hung it on my stand, it was crooked. Beat was way off. Straightened it, leveled it, restarted it, made sure the beat was as close to correct as I could get it, and "Voila!", it has been running for several hours with no stopping.
I still have to finish adjusting the strike train and do a few minor wood repairs to the case, but I'm going to let it run for a day before stopping it.
Thanks everyone for all the input and help. This is a great forum!
 

Swanicyouth

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Maybe a dumb question & maybe I missed it; but did it run when you got it? I know it was drenched in oil. I always see how well stuff runs before I take it apart, that way when I put it back together, if it runs bad or not at all I know it’s something I did.

I also can vouch if something is bushed too tight it will drive you crazy trying to keep it running. Someone above said it needs some rattle -that is true. Better for bushings to be a little too loose than a little too tight on these American clocks from the ones I have done.
 

Bohemian Bill

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I have now taken this clock apart six times. LOL. Frustrating but I'll be darned if I was going to let it beat me.
I took the escape wheel and "polished" it, using microscope to take off even tiny burrs or bends on the teeth. Worked over the pivots to also make sure they were spotless and slick, with no bumps or grooves. I then reassembled the movement with just one or two gears at a time to make sure they spun with just a light touch of the finger. Then I put all the gears in except the mainspring to make sure everything was as smooth as I could get it. Finally, I put the movement back together, crossed my fingers, and started it up. No joy. Dang I was unhappy to say the least. Then I noticed that when I hung it on my stand, it was crooked. Beat was way off. Straightened it, leveled it, restarted it, made sure the beat was as close to correct as I could get it, and "Voila!", it has been running for several hours with no stopping.
I still have to finish adjusting the strike train and do a few minor wood repairs to the case, but I'm going to let it run for a day before stopping it.
Thanks everyone for all the input and help. This is a great forum!
Great news! Good job! David..Its always rewarding when it runs after working on a movement
 

HotCzech46

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Swanicyouth, no, it did not run when I first got it. I thought the repair would be simple because someone before me had obviously bushed almost every hole and none of the bushings were showing any wear. As noted, it was literally drenched in oil. I hoped a good cleaning and small adjustment was all it needed. Should have known better, LOL.

Thanks, Bill. I am almost in disbelief that it is actually running. There were a few times when I about gave up hope.
 

R. Croswell

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Always worries me when a clock starts work and I can’t nail down just what the problem was. I have a cuckoo clock that in spits of all I did would never keep running. I gave up a year or more ago and decided to just leave it as a wall decoration. Then a week ago I walked by and flipped the pendulum and it’s been running perfect all week. So I’m about to pull up the weights. (It is an 8-day clock), but even though it is running, I don’t expect the good fortune to last. I’ve learned not to count the chickens just because the hen laid an egg.

RC
 
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roughbarked

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It is possible that by all your working on the escape wheel that the clock will now run more easily.
However, I might have missed it but did you do work on the lantern pinion of the escape wheel?
Sure some clocks do need every bush replaced but if a clock comes in with all bushes replaced and still not working despite someone believing that more oil could fix the issue, it should be clear that the original issue was still unrepaired?
I did note that though you said the clock had been fully bushed, that the bush fanatic hadn't bushed the verge pivots.
 
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Willie X

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Had some problems with the verge width and depth too ... Willie X
 
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