Waterbury "Jarvis"

Nicko

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I have one of these early clocks in here. I would like to know if these clocks used steel plates. It looks likes they were brass plated steel. In areas the plating has worn of and the base metal exposed. In others there looks to be areas of rust.
Once its cleaned up and ready to be put back together, what would you suggest that I paint the bare areas with?

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R. Croswell

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Yes, Waterbury made a lot of these with steel plates that were plated. Be careful if you plan to bush any pivot holes. The brass "plugs" were not always centered over the pivots. Best to leave them in place and use a thin wall bushing. I would just clean the metal and use 0000 steel wool to remove any rust and leave it at that. It shouldn't rust too quickly in a heated home but if you want to coat it, lacquer is what plates are typically coated with but you will need to take steps to keep it out of the pivot holes. I have a similar clock that I got in 1967 - movement looked bad then but doesn't look much different today. Its one of my best running clocks and runs every day.

RC
 

shutterbug

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Test the plates with a magnet. If it sticks, they're steel :)
 

Nicko

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Thanks guys. I did what I should have done first up and searched the forum for steel plates and found all the info I needed.
There are a couple of other issues. The owner said she was winding it in a hurry and the key spun round and cut her thumb. I've had a good look at the clicks and they seem ok. There are a couple of dings in two of the ratchet wheel teeth, should I worry about those. The verge is worn out as you can see, so I'll need another one of those.

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R. Croswell

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Thanks guys. I did what I should have done first up and searched the forum for steel plates and found all the info I needed.
There are a couple of other issues. The owner said she was winding it in a hurry and the key spun round and cut her thumb. I've had a good look at the clicks and they seem ok. There are a couple of dings in two of the ratchet wheel teeth, should I worry about those. The verge is worn out as you can see, so I'll need another one of those.

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Yes, if it let go once it will let go again so I would worry about it. Can't really see all the teeth or the click in the picture. Looks like the spring has been soldered. I hope it is working the click correctly. As for the verge, worn out is an understatement! You might be able to repair with a spring steel slipper but just as easy to replace it.

RC
 

Nicko

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Here's a photo of the wheel with the click sitting on the worst tooth. The spring is very weak, I would like to replace that more than the ratchet wheel. I don't know how to go about separating the arbour from the click wheel. It looks like a fine cut on both sides of the wheel where it its peened over. Not much to remove.

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R. Croswell

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Here's a photo of the wheel with the click sitting on the worst tooth. The spring is very weak, I would like to replace that more than the ratchet wheel. I don't know how to go about separating the arbour from the click wheel. It looks like a fine cut on both sides of the wheel where it its peened over. Not much to remove.

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I believe on this one once you remove the main spring you should find a brass or steel cup washer that is staked onto the brass "hub" on the main spring side of the wheel. If you relieve the staked impressions (file or light cut with a lathe) you should be able to pop the washer off and the main wheel will then fall off. Leave the ratchet wheel on the arbor and while you clean up the teeth. If it is too far gone I think I have one with a good ratchet wheel (fair main wheel, needs a clock and click spring) you can have if the arbor is the right length and you can't find one closer to home.

RC
 

shutterbug

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I don't think that's the correct click for that wheel. You need flat against flat. A point against a flat will never hold.
 

Tinker Dwight

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You also need to look at the tips of the teeth.
Any rounding there that can catch the click is
bad. You want them to come to a point.
The click being the wrong shape has already
been mentioned.
You need to instruct the lady in safe winging as well.
Thinker Dwight
 

R. Croswell

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I don't think that's the correct click for that wheel. You need flat against flat. A point against a flat will never hold.
Here is a picture of what I assume to be an original click in my Waterbury kitchen clock that has the same movement. The shape is slightly different and it is brass. Sorry I don't have a picture of this style with the click engaged. I've seen this style in other Waterbury's but never seen it made of steel but it would not surprise me if some were. They also used a different style in many of their other movements. Can't say if the one in the Jarvis is original or not but looks different. Agree that flat on flat is best.

If maintaining originality is only a secondary consideration, replacing the click with one of a different style with an attached spring wire, removing the flat spring, and installing a shoulder rivet in one of the original spring holes to anchor the spring wire is an option. The blunt end can be filed to be flat against the ratchet teeth.

RC
 

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shutterbug

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You can see in RC's pic that the short part of the click would engage the wheel solidly, flat on flat. That's what you need. I think your click is a replacement.
 

David S

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Here is a pic of a waterbury weight driven movement showing the "fish tail" click. Unfortunately there is no tension on the wheel so the click is not seated, but the triangle of the click fits snugly in the ratchet wheel.

David
click close.jpg
 

Nicko

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Thanks everybody for your help and replies. I think the click is original but there is a raised burr in the top of the tooth where it was damaged. The click sits flat down on all the other teeth as you say they should. I'll do some more work and post some photos.
I did have a setback. I foolishly and carelessly broke a pivot off on the escape wheel. The moral is never drive a wheel by its pivot, they sometimes will break off. But you gentlemen would know that. I have made a wire drive dog and will do it properly next time there is not enough room to drive on the arbour. I have repaired that now.
Here are some photos if your are interested.

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shutterbug

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Looks good, Nicko. Clock repair is a live and learn process. Good thing you have a lathe, and know how to use it :) Incidentally, you can chuck on the pinion in those cases and be just fine if you're not doing really heavy work on the other end.
 

Nicko

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Thanks Shutt, well that was the problem, as you can see there is no pinion length to drive it from, which it why I was driving using the pivot in a collet. Not clever. But no permanent damage done.

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shutterbug

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Ooops. Yep, I was thinking the other end for some reason.
 

Nicko

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Back to the "Jarvis". I did get some parts for it but none are suitable without modification. First the click springs. If you scroll up a few posts you will see the springs. They are made from flat stock and are formed in a semi circle from the 2 holes in the wheel spokes around to the top of the fishtail click. The problem is that the springs are quite weak. I did get some spring wire replacements, but they don't fit and are a left and right pair. The question is what's best to do? Bodge up something with the wire click springs or make a new set of flat ones from some flat spring steel? I have hacksaw blades of varying sizes as flat stock, a mill and a propane torch.

On to the verge. As you can see from the photos further back in the post. The verge is quite worn and needs replacing. I ordered a selection of verges but all are too big, waay too big, or just humungous. I also purchased a flat verge kit ready to bend at the appropriate places. Even that it too big. Then there are the matched set of escape wheels with verges. Should I be looking at using one of those kits instead of messing with red hot metal.

Your input always appreciated
 

shutterbug

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The flat verge can be bent and cut to appropriate sizes. It's not easy to make a verge, but if you have one to copy I'm sure you could do it.
 

R. Croswell

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The make a verge kits are usually pretty crappy but can usually be made to work, The saddle is often too wide for the pin it fits on. Sometimes it can be squeezed together but in some cases I have had to remove it and grind the middle of the verge down and make a new saddle. Just make sure the replacement verge has all the same angles and the same distance between the pallets. You may be able to save the old one if you cover the worn place with a piece of thin spring steel - perhaps from a .002" or .003" suspension spring. It can be soldered and, although I have never tried it, I think JB-Weld might do the job.

I believe that Timesavers offers a click spring for this wheel. When I replace with a click that has a wire attached, I install a shoulder rivet in one of the old click spring holes to catch the tail of the spring wire. The tip of the click would need to be shaped to match the ratchet wheel. Yes, there is a right and left.

RC
 

bangster

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You may be able to save the old one if you cover the worn place with a piece of thin spring steel - perhaps from a .002" or .003" suspension spring. It can be soldered and, although I have never tried it, I think JB-Weld might do the job.
Sweat soldering would be the way to go.
 

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