Waterbury Crystal Regulator

Ken M

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Just had this delivered. Not what I expected. Description was

(II)DIEPPE WATERBURY CLOCK CO GLASS AND BRASS

, I thought an American case with a French movement. Nothing French here.
1660852516616.png


To start with, the dial was trapped on with gobs of solder, is that right?
IMG_20220818_151322575_HDR.jpg


The back plate
IMG_20220818_151405608.jpg


I've never bushed before, but it looks like I'm going to learn. This thing has never been, and it's quite loose, wish me luck! Oh, and in the corners on this case it looks like this thing was really bright and shiny at one time, can it be cleaned up to restore that, or is it dull forever?
IMG_20220818_151526126_HDR.jpg
 

Ken M

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Another question. This little curly thing holding the snail, do you just uncurl one side? What are the chances of it breaking?
IMG_20220818_152152202_HDR.jpg
 

Jeremy Woodoff

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It isn't obvious to me that it needs bushings. There's too much dirt to tell. The S curve pin will probably break; just replace it with a new one, or a straight taper pin. These cases were often, if not always, gold plated. You can see what appears to be remnants of the gold in the recessed areas. It's also possible that it wasn't plated, but just polished and lacquered brass, in which case the lacquer remains in the recesses, keeping the brass shiny. If it is remnants of gold and you don't mind losing it, you can polish the entire case and lacquer it, using gold-tinted lacquer of the type often used on brass musical instruments. It gives the brass a slightly more yellow, gold-like appearance. Solder was used in the dial assemblies, but I can't tell whether what's in your photo is original or a later repair.
 
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Ken M

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Thanks Jeremy. I'll work on getting it cleaned up. How do you determine if it needs bushings?
 

wow

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I think one of the mods should move this to the repair section. How do you remove this?
View attachment 722072
Ken, it is pressed on the arbor. I use a small puller but you may be able to pry it off carefully with two small screwdrivers. You determine where bushings are needed by letting down the springs using a let-down tool. Then you rock the wheels in each train back and forth watching the adjacent pivots. If the holes in the plates are worn oblong and the pivot moves considerably, a bushing is needed. The new bushing must be centered. The whole movement must be disassembled to do the proper repair. Pivots should be polished and much more. Are you equipped to do all this. This is not an easy movement to repair. I have a clock exactly like yours and have rebuilt it. Took a good bit of work.
 

Carl Bergquist

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On these the bottom with the feet are sometimes steel so if you get too aggressive you will end up with a steel color. The same thing with the top. The very top will be brass but the next layer down will be steel. All of the inside is polished brass. A lot of elbow grease and cotton gloves when you reassemble. It looks like you have the pendulum (fake mercury} At least lacquered plates on the movement and anything else that shows. Not an easy task but a very nice clock to display.
 
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Ken M

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At this point, I'm just going to clean it up, and hope I can get it back together. If it runs, great, if not, maybe a future project. I don't have all the tools, I do have some machining background and a drill press, so I might have the skills. But I'm not prepared to tackle that stuff right now. If I can get it back together right, I figure it a success.
 

shutterbug

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Treat the verge kindly. Those two jewels will loosen up if exposed to chemicals, and they have to be in a particular position to operate correctly.
 
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Swanicyouth

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If you’re looking for suggestions for lacquer, I use the Mohawk brass lacquer. It’s a professional grade product for this type of use & works very well on any metal. It’s also cheaper than the trumpet stuff. It also seems to completely stop tarnishing for at least a few years. 1 medium coat & it’s dry in 20 mins.
 
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Ken M

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Well, it's not going to run. I got it back together and it tried to run. So I took out the anchor to see if it will free wheel. This is the main culprit, there may be others. You can hear it chatter in the video, eventually it will just lock up. Guess I'll watch some YouTube vids on bushing.
bad pivot.jpg

 

Ken M

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Piece of cake, just need tools and bushings. Wonder if there is a kit somewhere with all I need!
 

Swanicyouth

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There isn’t, I thought the same thing but it’s not that hard. Basically you need some cutting broaches, pin vises, a micrometer, some small files, a KWM #3 reamer, & a KWM reamer handle, an anvil, & assortment of American mantle clock bushings (they have this assortment at Merrits for about $40).

That’s what you need to get started. You can get it all at Merrits. Smoothing broaches are nice to have and something to tap the bushing in, like a punch or brass drift as well.

You also need something to polish the pivots; and I’d recommend some type of magnifier depending on your eye site.
 
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Ken M

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Oh, that ain't much! Well, it was running in the case, I guess every thing is plum there, not so in my vice. But, that hands weren't advancing. Bummer. I don't see what's going on, or not going on as the case may be.
 

Ken M

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False alarm. It's running and keeping time. But I really messed up the striker. How do you set that up? I don't see any dots to line up like the French clock had.
 

wow

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False alarm. It's running and keeping time. But I really messed up the striker. How do you set that up? I don't see any dots to line up like the French clock had.
There are no dots. All rack and snail set-ups are basically the same. The rack is released when the main hand arbor lifts a lever. When it gets high enough, the rack falls and the rack tail stops it when it hits the snail. The snail has 12 different levels and controls how many strikes take place. The gathering pallet lifts the rack one tooth at a time counting the hour strike.
Search “rack and snail” and find videos showing a rack and snail working.
The difference in the Waterbury’s is the rack is on
the back of the movement while most are on
the front. You’ll get it. Don’t give up.
Will
 

demoman3955

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Well, it's not going to run. I got it back together and it tried to run. So I took out the anchor to see if it will free wheel. This is the main culprit, there may be others. You can hear it chatter in the video, eventually it will just lock up. Guess I'll watch some YouTube vids on bushing.
View attachment 722153
you got me all kinds of scared seeing the movement in the vice and the teeth hitting the vice. I hope its just resting on it and not clamped.
 

Ken M

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No, I'm very careful about that. They're rubber covers on vice, and in that pic it's just sitting there. At ease demonman! It does look bad, but it's ok, really.
 
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Ken M

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There isn’t, I thought the same thing but it’s not that hard. Basically you need some cutting broaches, pin vises, a micrometer, some small files, a KWM #3 reamer, & a KWM reamer handle, an anvil, & assortment of American mantle clock bushings (they have this assortment at Merrits for about $40).

That’s what you need to get started. You can get it all at Merrits. Smoothing broaches are nice to have and something to tap the bushing in, like a punch or brass drift as well.

You also need something to polish the pivots; and I’d recommend some type of magnifier depending on your eye site.
I have everything but the broaches and reamers. I'll probably get these some day KWM Style Hand Reamer Set and some broaches I haven't sourced yet.
 

Swanicyouth

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It’s confusing I know - because nobody gives you the sizes of this stuff and it’s not available as one big matched set. Basically, your going to look at the worn hole & see what side is worn or oblong. In theory, every hole that needs to be bushed is oblong, because wear only takes place at the point force is exerted on the pinion when it is under load.

Then, you get a little file, I like diamond files, & try to file the hole as symmetrical as you can. You are filing another oblong lobe on the opposite of the side worn. The size of the file doesn’t matter per se, as long as it fits in the hole.

Once that’s done, that will help the cutting broach cut a new hole true center of the previous worn hole. Basically, you are trying to cut a hole just under the size of the kwm reamer you will be using to cut the bushing hole. Most likely, the size you will need is a #3 KWM reamer, which is 2.7mm (~ 0.11”). So you want a cutting broach set that starts at a little less than that width & goes a little higher.

IMO, you will also need a micrometer. You need to measure the broach so you know about where to stop cutting on the broach. You need to measure the pinion as well when selecting a bearing. It comes in very handy when you don’t have an exact fit bearing. You can take your measurement of the pinion & broach the center hole of a smaller bearing to make it fit.

So, you want to cut a hole with the broach to about 0.10” if your using a #3 reamer & bearing. Then, you make the final cut to that hole with the #3 reamer. Then, you should have a perfect 2.7mm hole to press your bearing in. Press it from inside the plate with the oil cup facing out. It’s important to keep the reamer & broaches 90° from the plates when cutting, or you will end up with a hole that is cock eyed.

If you did everything perfect you will have a perfectly flush bearing centered perfectly. Generally, when selecting a pre-made bearing, you pick the next bigger size compared to the pinion measurement. If the bearing is too tight, you can broach the inside of that bigger as well.

In theory a set of smoothing broaches comes in handy if you are cutting the inside of a bearing bigger with a cutting broach. You should go over it after with a smoothing broach to smooth out what you cut. They also come in handy to measure the inner diameter of small holes. Sizes should be similar to the cutting broaches.

I would say you only need to put a bearing in a hole that is worn oblong. If the hole appears to be perfectly round, it’s likely not worn to a significant degree. You can also check it by putting the pinion in the hole & see how far it leans, somewhere around 5° or so is good. If it leans significantly more the hole may need a bushing, but some clocks came with more clearance than others. Don’t bush the hole too tight or you will have problems, better a little too loose than too tight.
 

Ken M

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Thank you! Good information. I have to gather some tools. I have a micrometer and files, it's everything else I need. I'm eager to get it done, I sprnt too much on this clock for it not to be running.
 

Ken M

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Is there something missing here? There are two matching pivot holes with nothing in them. I don't see any signs of wear, and I really don't see where anything would work in there. Are the "extra" or am I missing a wheel?
pivots.jpg

pivots2.jpg
 

Ken M

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There are no dots. All rack and snail set-ups are basically the same. The rack is released when the main hand arbor lifts a lever. When it gets high enough, the rack falls and the rack tail stops it when it hits the snail. The snail has 12 different levels and controls how many strikes take place. The gathering pallet lifts the rack one tooth at a time counting the hour strike.
Search “rack and snail” and find videos showing a rack and snail working.
The difference in the Waterbury’s is the rack is on
the back of the movement while most are on
the front. You’ll get it. Don’t give up.
Will
The gathering pallet always stops in this position, leaving the hammer up and stopping the rack from falling to the snail. I turned the gathering pallet to vertical from this position, and it just came around and stopped in the same position.
IMG_20220821_135808679.jpg
 

wow

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That position actually looks right. When it gets to the warn spot ( before the hour and half hour) the pallet should turn CCW enough to allow the rack to drop.
 

Ken M

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So the hammer is always in the raised position? At no time is the rack allowed to drop, it never strikes more than once.
 

wow

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When it goes into warn on the hour, the rack should drop. It should begin striking the hour when the minute hand reaches 12.
The hammer should be in the dropped position when the gathering pallet is in the spot shown in the photo.
In this movement, the hammer is actually lifted by the gathering pallet pins as shown in photo #3 in post #1.
 

Ken M

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I know what it supposed to do, but it's not doing it. The gathering pallet is in the way of the rack. That hammer rests on the same pallet, in a raised position, that is stopping the rack. That gathering pallet needs to stop later than it is.
 

Ken M

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On these the bottom with the feet are sometimes steel so if you get too aggressive you will end up with a steel color. The same thing with the top. The very top will be brass but the next layer down will be steel. All of the inside is polished brass. A lot of elbow grease and cotton gloves when you reassemble. It looks like you have the pendulum (fake mercury} At least lacquered plates on the movement and anything else that shows. Not an easy task but a very nice clock to display.
Doesn't seem to be any steel, at least what a magnet can find. Did some polishing to the base. There are remnants of lacquer, but it cleaned up nicely.
IMG_20220821_173127674.jpg
 

Ken M

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When it goes into warn on the hour, the rack should drop. It should begin striking the hour when the minute hand reaches 12.
The hammer should be in the dropped position when the gathering pallet is in the spot shown in the photo.
In this movement, the hammer is actually lifted by the gathering pallet pins as shown in photo #3 in post #1.
Note the position of the snail, the rack never gets near it.
 

wow

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Ok. To get the hammer in the right position, turn the gathering pallet CCW on it’s arbor until the hammer drops and stop it there. Then advance the hand and see what happens.
 

Ken M

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Yes, that's what I did and it's working as expected. On to bigger and better things. I'm not convinced it need bushings. Everything I've read and videos I've watched, they just don't look out of tolerance to me. So I've been playing. Those to screws that hold that thing(?) that holds the escape wheel don't just slide into the recess like they should, I have to force them in. And when I tighten them, it binds up the escape wheel. If I loosen them, especially the one on the right, the escape wheel frees up a bit and it will run for a little bit. So I left that right screw out of the recess, and fpr a half hour.
escape wheel.jpg


And another problem, the mainspring is very weak. If I apply just a little power with my thumb, it will run as long as I sit there and push. Can someone tell me what spring I need?
 

wow

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My guess is that your mainspring is not the main problem. There are almost always several sloppy bushings in these movements. New mainsprings generally are not nearly as good as the originals. Bushings and polished pivots would make it like new.
 

Ken M

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I'm sure you're right. Getting everything together is going to take some time. But, this mainspring is really weak. The strike side is a lot better. They look the same, maybe I'll swap them and see what happens, it's free.
 

Ken M

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If you’re looking for suggestions for lacquer, I use the Mohawk brass lacquer. It’s a professional grade product for this type of use & works very well on any metal. It’s also cheaper than the trumpet stuff. It also seems to completely stop tarnishing for at least a few years. 1 medium coat & it’s dry in 20 mins.
I have lacquer from Timesavers, both regular and gold tint. I've tried, but I have a humidity problem, year round. I bought a dehumidifier, come winter when I have an edge I'll seal off a room and try to dry it out give it another go.
 

Ken M

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My guess is that your mainspring is not the main problem. There are almost always several sloppy bushings in these movements. New mainsprings generally are not nearly as good as the originals. Bushings and polished pivots would make it like new.
They are about equal, so I'll forget about it for now. I've read where if you're going to do bushings, you have to do pivots first...more tools. I'm wondering what it would cost to have it done, besides a lot. The investment in tools would be well worth it, but I doubt I'll be doing much of this kind of work, I'm not in the business of repairing clocks, I'm just a hobbyist, and I'm running out of room for more clocks.
 

wow

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Butterworths sells polishing disks that are very inexpensive. Three grades of courceness. They work well in a Dremel. They also sell bushings in small quantities.
 

Ken M

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It’s confusing I know - because nobody gives you the sizes of this stuff and it’s not available as one big matched set. Basically, your going to look at the worn hole & see what side is worn or oblong. In theory, every hole that needs to be bushed is oblong, because wear only takes place at the point force is exerted on the pinion when it is under load.

Then, you get a little file, I like diamond files, & try to file the hole as symmetrical as you can. You are filing another oblong lobe on the opposite of the side worn. The size of the file doesn’t matter per se, as long as it fits in the hole.

Once that’s done, that will help the cutting broach cut a new hole true center of the previous worn hole. Basically, you are trying to cut a hole just under the size of the kwm reamer you will be using to cut the bushing hole. Most likely, the size you will need is a #3 KWM reamer, which is 2.7mm (~ 0.11”). So you want a cutting broach set that starts at a little less than that width & goes a little higher.

IMO, you will also need a micrometer. You need to measure the broach so you know about where to stop cutting on the broach. You need to measure the pinion as well when selecting a bearing. It comes in very handy when you don’t have an exact fit bearing. You can take your measurement of the pinion & broach the center hole of a smaller bearing to make it fit.

So, you want to cut a hole with the broach to about 0.10” if your using a #3 reamer & bearing. Then, you make the final cut to that hole with the #3 reamer. Then, you should have a perfect 2.7mm hole to press your bearing in. Press it from inside the plate with the oil cup facing out. It’s important to keep the reamer & broaches 90° from the plates when cutting, or you will end up with a hole that is cock eyed.

If you did everything perfect you will have a perfectly flush bearing centered perfectly. Generally, when selecting a pre-made bearing, you pick the next bigger size compared to the pinion measurement. If the bearing is too tight, you can broach the inside of that bigger as well.

In theory a set of smoothing broaches comes in handy if you are cutting the inside of a bearing bigger with a cutting broach. You should go over it after with a smoothing broach to smooth out what you cut. They also come in handy to measure the inner diameter of small holes. Sizes should be similar to the cutting broaches.

I would say you only need to put a bearing in a hole that is worn oblong. If the hole appears to be perfectly round, it’s likely not worn to a significant degree. You can also check it by putting the pinion in the hole & see how far it leans, somewhere around 5° or so is good. If it leans significantly more the hole may need a bushing, but some clocks came with more clearance than others. Don’t bush the hole too tight or you will have problems, better a little too loose than too tight.
I'm gathering the tools I need for my first bushing experience. Be gentle. I've identified 6 pivot holes I want to bush. The pivots measure 0.040" (1mm) and 0.050" (1.26mm). Do you still thing a #3 reamer is what I'll need. I'll be getting a set of #1-5 so I have flexibility, and this won't be my last rodeo. I think I know how to do this now, but.....
 

Ken M

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Butterworths sells polishing disks that are very inexpensive. Three grades of courceness. They work well in a Dremel. They also sell bushings in small quantities.
Just ordered the variety pack from Mr. Butterworth, $10 + shipping, what a deal!
 

Ken M

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Thanks.
If you’re looking for suggestions for lacquer, I use the Mohawk brass lacquer. It’s a professional grade product for this type of use & works very well on any metal. It’s also cheaper than the trumpet stuff. It also seems to completely stop tarnishing for at least a few years. 1 medium coat & it’s dry in 20 mins.
Turns out, the clear lacquer I got from Timesavers is Mohawk, the gold is Nikolas.
 

Ken M

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Treat the verge kindly. Those two jewels will loosen up if exposed to chemicals, and they have to be in a particular position to operate correctly.
I've been keeping an eye on those things. The adhesive on the backside, same color as the pallets, is flaking off. Is that just glue? Should I put some superglue on that backside to support/replace that?
 

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