WATCHMAKER'S TOOLS

G

Gan

Guest
Some puzzling items were acquired together with other watchmaker’s tools. They are:
- set of small stakes (about 2 inches in length and about 2 mm in diameter);
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/349803401_365ab4a371.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/128/349803405_dd49f70b4b.jpg
- brass ball of about one half inch in diameter with for extending arms of different diameters (from about 0.7 to 2.0 mm);
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/349803406_cfed9612f2.jpg
and

- rotating tool (about 2 inches long) with a complex ending.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/150/349803407_1c46fec020.jpg

It would be greatly appreciated if the readers of this MB could provide some information on these tools and their applications. Thank you in anticipation.
 

Smudgy

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May 20, 2003
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Here's some guesses

1&2-pivot hole guages used in conjunction with a plate with jewels mounted in it, or possibly drift pins.

3-jewel pusher

4-Unsure, but it's part of a turning tool (turns or Jacot)
 

dross

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Jan 8, 2003
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I agree with Smudgy on #3. I have a similar tool with 6 prongs in a separate holder. Four are like yours to push out jewels and the other 2 are for pushing on watch hands.

Item 4 is part of a German made watch jeweling tool. You are missing the tapered pin that opens and closes the cutters and an external brass portion that positions the cutters on the watch plate and allows you to use a bow on the pully on your piece to achieve the cutting action.
 

Per G

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Jan 9, 2007
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The brass ball thingummy is part of a watch hand anvil. There is one going right now on German eBay. I can't link to the ongoing auction, but if you search for Zeigeramboss on ebay.de, you'll se the complete tool.

The rotating tool, 4, I think is something to do with forming the holes for jewels in watch plates. There should be a plunger to spread the steel fingers to the right diameter
 

Ansomnia

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by Gan:
Some puzzling items were acquired together with other watchmaker's tools. They are:
- set of small stakes (about 2 inches in length and about 2 mm in diameter);

View attachment 2124

View attachment 2125

...It would be greatly appreciated if the readers of this MB could provide some information on these tools and their applications. Thank you in anticipation.
I believe the set of punches in picture 1 and 2 are "punches for extracting cylinders". Here is a Bergeon set:

View attachment 2126

It's an assortment of 12 punches of 2 mm Ø with hollow ends ranging between 0.3 mm to 0.8 mm Ø.

Here is a link to the Bergeon catalogue description

Would love to have someone explain how they are actually used. The Bergeon catalogue says they are used to extract cylinders. They look more suitable for pushing the ends of the cylinder plugs into the cylinders rather than to extract them.

Confused again :confused:


Michael
 

Modersohn

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Nov 15, 2003
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Mike, that's exactly what I think, often, when I look at parts catalogues, or even manuals for use, or instructions:

You put the "what"? onto the "what/where"?-- "um, okay, that's as clear as mud."

It's awfully hard even to ask question-- you know-- I mean since you don't even know what you're asking about.

what type of cylinder plugs do you use, and what do you use them for, by the way?

thanks, Mo
 

Jim Michaels

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Jan 11, 2007
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The first two are just punches used for various jobs. The 3rd item is used for putting on Swiss style cannon pinions. There is a base that goes with it( missing in picture), and you rest the back of the setting square in the correct size cup then once it is supported you and press on the cannon pinion. I use mine a lot and it's a great tool. It can also be used for other things, however I am sure it was designed for cannon pinions. The last tool is used for opening and maybe closing jewel settings. Not much of a tool, as it turns to fast and you have a hard time controlling the pressure needed to open or close a setting.
 
M

Mike Kearney

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Mo, about cylinder plugs. They are replaceable balance pivots found in watch movements which used the cylinder escapement. The cylinder escapement was invented in the 18th century and was popular well into the 19th century before the lever escapement effectively became the standard. Vintage watch repairers still have to deal with them today, so you'll occasionally see questions about repairing them on the board. The cylinder escapement is described and illustrated in chapters 2 and 5 of the online book in the link here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17021/17021-h/17021-h.htm

Mike, I think the Bergeon punches you referred to have the pin offset from the center of the punch, unlike those in Gan's images. The Bergeon punches aren't nearly like the knee-shaped punches found in old staking sets, but being slightly offset, they might allow the pin to get into the cylinder enough to drive the plug out. Just a guess.

Regards,
Mike
 

Modersohn

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Nov 15, 2003
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Hi, Mike.

Could you explain how to read the gutenburg files? I've looked at other texts there, and I can't figure out how I'm supposed to read them.

For example, on the link you gave, it offers several ways to get the text, but on the HTML one, there are no illustrations. I'm not sure how to open the zip files on my computer, on the other hand. But do they have the illustrations?

Thanks a lot for the reference, though.

Mo
 

Ralph

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Jan 22, 2002
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I downloaded the 3.32 MB file. It has the illustrations.

You need something WINZIP or WINRAR to unzip it. Once it is unzipped and you click it, if associations are right, it should open a browser window with the eBook in it.

Ralph
 
M

Mike Kearney

Guest
Hi Mo. If you select the HTML file with no compression, the whole book will be displayed as one very long web page with the illustrations displayed (they're jpegs imbedded in the HTML). Because the page is so big, depending on your internet connection, it can take a long time (15 minutes) for your browser to render it. The text appears first, and the illustrations will fill in over time. It's a good book, and worth the wait.

Also the main site seems slower than the alternate site today.

Regards,
Mike
 

Modersohn

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Nov 15, 2003
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Thanks, Mike. I tried the mirror site and, for some reason, the file downloaded with no problems and with the illustrations.

I'm really looking forward to reading it,

:)

Mo
 

Ansomnia

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by Modersohn:
Mike, that's exactly what I think, often, when I look at parts catalogues, or even manuals for use, or instructions:

You put the "what"? onto the "what/where"?-- "um, okay, that's as clear as mud."

It's awfully hard even to ask question-- you know-- I mean since you don't even know what you're asking about.

what type of cylinder plugs do you use, and what do you use them for, by the way?

thanks, Mo
Mo, I presume you were addressing me since I am the only instance of Michael in this thread prior, even though I don't go by "Mike".

From my experience, some continental Europeans seem to have a way of being obscure in their technical documentation. They often have this way of implying something they seem to assume you know or should know. Most of my experience is with Germans but I guess the Swiss may have a similar way with words.

As the others have pointed to documentation on the cylinder escapement; you may surmise I mean the plugs or tampons (as they're sometimes called). These plugs bear the 2 pivot ends for the cylinder staff and are inserted into the hollow cylinder body of the staff.

There are special cylinder plug punches for pushing them out when replacing broken pivots. The punches look like the ones in this set, which is Bergeon 6581:

https://shop.bergeon.ch/Catalogue/Images/images/6581-boite-avec-poin%E7ons.jpg

Since the plug punches already extract the plugs, I was wondering what Bergeon meant by the Bergeon 6445 being used to extract cylinders.

By the shape of the 6445 punches, they look like they are meant to fit over the pivots. So they would seem ideal for inserting the plugs or tampons into the cylinder staffs.

I have several unimportant but nice carriage clocks with broken cylinder pivots. I either have to replace the staffs or just the pivots. That's where these punches may be useful.


Michael
 
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Ansomnia

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by Jim Michaels:
The first two are just punches used for various jobs. ...
Jim, here is the reason why I think Gan's "small stakes" are Bergeon 6445 cylinder punches. Below are better photos. Gan obviously has 2 sets of these punches. By coincidence, I also have 2 sets.

View attachment 2127

Here is a close-up of the tips of the punches, the one at the very bottom has a broken tip:

View attachment 2128

As you see the punches have hollow tips of various diameters. I'm not sure if Gan's punches are also hollow since he didn't say and his photos do not show the tips clearly. However, they are 2 mm Ø and appear to be a set of 12 just as the Bergeon ones are. I suspect these punches were made by various companies. The 2 sets I have are not the same.

The general purpose stakes you referred to may be the ones that are normally part of a staking tool set and they tend to be of much heavier build than the cylinder plugs punches. Here is a photo for comparison. The regular stakes are on the left. I have fitted one of the plug punches to the upper plug of the cylinder in the balance.

View attachment 2129

Here is a close-up of the fitted punch on the cylinder:

View attachment 2130

Here is a blow-up showing the parts of the balance assembly. This pivot is likely broken - I haven't examined it under magnification yet but it sure looks broken. To the left is the plug punch which fits this plug.

View attachment 2131

Here's a profile comparing the upper and lower pivots.

View attachment 2132

And finally, here's your typical broken cylinder platform escapement in an old carriage clock:

View attachment 2133


Michael
 
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G

Gan

Guest
Thanks are due to all respondents of my query. The generously provided information generated enough understanding of the respective tools that it is possible now to attempt a preliminary summary of our present knowledge on the subject.

A. SMALL PUNCHES (Fig. 1 & 2): Tools for various applications. Similar to some old staking hole punches of 3.5 mm in diameter, manufactured long ago by ‘Favorite’ in Switzerland and by ‘G. Boyley’ in Germany, but smaller (only about 2 mm in diameter). Could be used for pivot gauging and for extracting cylinders (Bergeon tool # 6445). Still it is not completely clear how the latter task should be performed;
B. BRASS BALL WITH ARMS (Fig. 3): A tool that has to be used with a special anvil (see picture – Fig. 5). The ball presented in the

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/357660521_7412b56334.jpg

query is fitted with arms which can be used as jewel pushers. Another ball presented at a German eBay auction and shown at the picture 5, is fitted with arms for pushing watch hands. It is not clear to the writer how such a tool should be operated.
C. ROTATING TOOL (Fig. 4): A part of a German tool for forming holes for jewels in watch plates.

It is sincerely hoped that the above ‘summary’ will trigger some additional comments.
 
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