Watches with wind indicators

Bernhard J.

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Parallel to the respective thread in the American watch section, European watches with wind indicators might find a place here. I start off with a few of mine.

Rob, Clint, might it be considered to shift or duplicate the the post with the magnificent English watches shown by Clint in the American section to here?

Permission to use by David Penney (his photos are second to none, absolutely brilliant, obviously)

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Forget my photographic skills :D

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Bernhard J.

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Well, I like it. Unloved because of the recase? By the way, I also like display cases because of the clear advantage of being able to admire the movement without having to fuzz around with lids, in particular if screwed, like in most American watches.

How is the watch wound and set? Must the rear window lid be removed for doing that and how is this done (screwed)? Not a stupid question, because some special Swiss watches for the far east markets did have rear window lids (instead of dust lids) with holes for the key.

Does the movement have the typical reversed fusee?
 
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Dr. Jon

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It's a true keyless fusee and I wind it via the crown. I could pop the back, as I photographed it, and use a key. For some reason keyless fusees almost always have square arbors for key wind and set, and usually the cases had holes in the cuvette for key winding.

It is a reverse fusee. This is almost self evident. A regular fusee would run the chain through the setting gears
 
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Ethan Lipsig

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Rodney Leon

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I had ask about this before and got some great information, so thought it would fit in with this post. Thanks to everyone for the information on this. Up/Down English pocket watch J. Greening.1886. Movement marked, 31 Market St, Longton, Patented 3005 Safety Wheel, and J. Greening. Movement No. 2637. Case number matches movement number 2637. Marks inside the case I.J.T.N. For. Isaac Jebez Theo Newsom, C with a lion and shield, Chester 1886. Greening Joseph Longton Staffordshire 1887 - 92 Also jeweller The watch was retailed by Greening who will have received the completed watch with the movement already signed with his name from the Coventry maker, who was probably Newsome, The Butts, Coventry.

dial.jpg greening.jpg hallmarks.jpg movement.jpg movement2.jpg side.jpg
 

gmorse

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Hi Rodney,

If you ever have occasion to take the dial off, I'd love to see the up-down mechanism on the pillar plate. This function is much easier to implement on a fusee than it is on a going barrel like this, which usually involves some sort of differential arrangement.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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The date of the patent is 3 March 1886 and was advertised as being solely deployed by Newsome & Co. So I believe your assumption is correct. I have never been able to identify who Morcom was, perphaps he was a Newsome employee. The surname is more common in the SW of England, I have identified a Richard Morcom born in 1850 living in Warwickshire, but not registered in the watch trades and no relatives with the initials A J.

Morcom-1886.jpg 20160701 004.jpg

Incidentally, the cap may also have the stamp of Newsome like so ...

20180123 001.jpg

John
 

PatH

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What is the other mark to the left of the Newsome mark on the cap?
 
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John Matthews

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Pat - that is a good spot.

I suspect it is TW.

Newsome will have finished this watch and added his mark as the finisher on various parts of the movement, exactly how much of the movement he was responsible for, is open to question. I suspect he will have used various outworkers and in this case I believe it is safe to assume that Thomas Whittaker made the cap. He is recorded, in 1881, as a cap maker age 43 residing in Hill Street, Coventry.

There has often been discussion as to whether the maker's mark on watch cases should be called a sponsor's mark, in much the same way, and perhaps often more justifiably, we should start using the same term to describe the 'famous entrepreneur finishers' of the C19th.

John
 

John Matthews

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Incidentally I forgot to mention I believe the serial number will be that of Newsome and will have been added as part of the finishing process together with the retailer's signature.

gmorse Graham - Do you think the mechanism to drive the wind indicator could utilize the safety wheel mechanism?

John
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,
Graham - Do you think the mechanism to drive the wind indicator could utilize the safety wheel mechanism?
Wind indicators in 'conventional' going barrel movements have to take account of two separate motions, the winding action and the unwinding action. Because the winding is normally achieved by turning the barrel arbor which doesn't turn during running, the unwinding would need to be derived from a different component and the two motions would need to be connected to the indicator by a differential mechanism.

However, in Morcom's patent, the common arbor of wheels B and G is also the winding arbor, so I think it should turn during both winding and unwinding, making the provision of a wind indicator much simpler.

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

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Hi,

a rather special Jaeger Le Coultre pocket watch with winding indicator. In my opinion is the JLC Cal. 204 a very beautiful movement.

More info. including patent drawings:

Best rgds
Peter B.

11122676_fullsize.jpg
 
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Rodney Leon

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If you ever have occasion to take the dial off, I'd love to see the up-down mechanism on the pillar plate. This function is much easier to implement on a fusee than it is on a going barrel like this, which usually involves some sort of differential arrangement.

Regards,

Graham
Do you think the mechanism to drive the wind indicator could utilize the safety wheel mechanism?
I Pulled the dial off because I forgot what was under it. Now I know. It has NEWSOME ? SOLE MARKERS PATENT. I did not want to pull it all apart, so maybe you know what the missing letters are. There is number 16 with O over 2 on the other side. I also shot a side view. not very good sorry. Hope this helps. And thanks for the interest in the watch. Let me know if you figure out how it works. Rodney

16 02.jpg dial off 3.jpg newsoms.jpg side 1.jpg
 
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Rodney Leon

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The date of the patent is 3 March 1886 and was advertised as being solely deployed by Newsome & Co.
I wrote " Now I know. It has NEWSOME ? SOLE MARKERS PATENT. I did not want to pull it all apart, so maybe you know what the missing letters are." I see I had a typo should be NEWSOME SOLE MAKERS PATENT. I looked at your ad John and see they refer to it as sole, so there are no more letters under the barrel ratchet wheel like I thought.
 

gmorse

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Hi Rodney,
Let me know if you figure out how it works.
Thanks for the excellent pictures.

dial off 3_crop.jpg

The up-down hand fits on the blue circled wheel and is driven via the idler wheel by the red circled pinion of ten on the B/G arbor, (see the Morcom patent in John's post #11). The reduction ratio looks like about 5:1. This is no different from the way it would work on a fusee.

The 16 with 0 over 2 stamps are the plate size and the pillar height, probably in Lancashire Gauge.

Regards,

Graham
 

Bernhard J.

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These "Center Seconds Chronographs" are quite frequent in varying quality stages, even in the best qualities, like this movement. But I never saw one with wind indicator. Splendid!

Cheers, Bernhard

P.S.: These are "just" center seconds movements with a lever for stopping and starting the whole movement, so no chronograph function. The better ones are extremely solid and with heavy cases (most often silver, occasionally gold), and made for centuries of use without problems.
 

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