Watch Grades and value

[steve_s]

I have only been collecting a short time but learned quickly that of the various manufacturers they made countless different models and grades. My question is this.

How does one determine whether one grade is better than another? Is there some publication or publications that lists the models and grades that each major manufacturer made? I understand that jewel count, damaskeening, train material, and other factors go into quality but there are so many different models and grades that I can't make sense of all of it.

I have a copy of the "Complete Price Guide to Watches" that lists many of the grades but is is comprehensive? Is there some publication that is better?

Thanks all!

 

[steve_s]

Just found the encyclopedia section, maybe I can find more there.

 

[John Cote]

Steve,

This is a great question but as with most great questions it does not have a simple answer. Models and grades are great to study and they can be a factor in value but they are not always a major factor and can lead a collector astray. Just as rarity is not directly proportional to value neither is model or grade. Demand is the key factor in any value discussion and just because some watch is rare or of a high grade does not mean collectors necessarily want it.

Again, study grades by looking at reference books and at online sources like pocketwatchdatabase. Also study auction results like Jones & Horan and eBay. It will stand you in good stead. That said, there are a lot of clues you can use when you are in the field looking for watches. Look for things like gold instead of composition jewel settings. Look for bright red ruby jewels as opposed to dull colored jewels and look for diamond endstones. Look for elegant chamfering on parts like regulator arms and look for the finish on screw heads. Look for quality glassy looking dials instead of the cheaper soft and dull enamel dials. The good stuff came on good watches.

When studying models and grades also study serial number/date ranges for the various companies and learn what they were doing during certain periods. I used to know an ex army Colonel who kept a list in his pocket of watches on his hit list with all of the data he might need to check for originality etc. The list had several hundred entries.

I might also advise that you make some mentor friends at local and regional NAWCC meeting. I have a lot of friends to whom I can send pictures when I am looking at watches who have expertise and who can give me good advice. I also have people who text me pix and ask for my advice.

 

[Kent]

...
How does one determine whether one grade is better than another?
...

There area few ways to tell, the easiest way being to check the prices (within the same document). For example this 1887 catalog sheet shows that the Waltham Crescent St. grade is a higher grade than the nickel Appleton,Tracy & Co.




You may find the Jobbers Catalogs listed here helpful.

...
Is there some publication or publications that lists the models and grades that each major manufacturer made? I understand that jewel count, damaskeening, train material, and other factors go into quality but there are so many different models and grades that I can't make sense of all of it.
...
...

Steve:

Yes, there are books that list and explain the models and grades. Many also contain serial number vs. grade lists. Here are some for the larger watch companies. Many are out of print but can be found on eBay if you search long enough. However, these can get expensive quickly and a lot of the information is now available online.

American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide, William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1985 (no longer in print).

American Watchmaking - A Technical History of the American Watch Industry 1850-1930, Michael C. Harrold, Bulletin Supplement No. 14, Spring 1984.

Elgin Watch Company - Identification and Price Guide, Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1976 (no longer in print).

"From Springfield To Moscow: The Complete Dueber-Hampden Story," (Revised and enlarged successor to the 1954 Supplement to the NAWCC Bulletin) James W. Gibbs, Philadelphia, PA, 1986 (this should be available to members on loan by mail from the http://www.nawcc.org/index.php/library-research]NAWCC Library & Research Center[/url]).

Hamilton Hand-Written Serial Numbers No. 1 To 824,700, by Col. George E. Townsend, by Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 2000 (no longer in print).
Hamilton Serial Numbers and Production Figures with Price Guide, Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1981 (no longer in print).
Lasser's List - The Hamilton Watch Company American Production, Dr. Howard Lasser, NAWCC, Columbia, PA, 2009

Seth Thomas Watches 1885-1915, Chris H. Bailey, American Clock & Watch Museum, Inc., Bristol, CT, 1981 (copies are available on loan by mail to NAWCC members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center)


There are many more, but before you search some of these out and buy them, you ought to check what is available online.

...
I have a copy of the "Complete Price Guide to Watches" that lists many of the grades but is is comprehensive? Is there some publication that is better?
...

The "Complete Price Guide to Watches"is as good as it gets. The Complete Price Guide To Watches is a good first book for a pocket watch collector to have. It was my first book, back in the 1980s and it helped me a lot. The following is not meant to knock the book, but merely to point out its limitations. The Complete Price Guide To Watches is not the gospel; it is not the bible of watches; it is not the definitive, final authority; nor is it meant to be any of these. To quote from the title page, page 1 of the 30th edition (January 2010): "This book endeavors to be a Guide or helpful manual and offers a wealth of material and information to be used as a tool not as a absolute document (emphasis added)." While there is a lot of good information, and regardless of the title, it really isn't complete. There are a number of combinations of grades, sizes, jeweling and markings that aren't listed. And, as in all published works, errors exist despite the best efforts to clear them out. The accuracy of the estimated values shown in the book is debatable and obsolete the moment the book is printed. Nevertheless, I suspect that over 90% of the values are somewhere in the ballpark for the given year. The real value of a watch won't really be known until it sells at auction. Perhaps the most important lack is specific references for the facts that it presents and the lack of an overall bibliography, something a more experienced collector needs. Nevertheless, when all is said and done, it is a great first reference for the beginner! Once you define your specific interest(s) in pocket watches, it becomes time to look for more specific and detailed references. At that point, you begin to move out of novice level and you're no longer a beginner.

Page 101 of Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 33, R. Gilbert, T. Engle and C. Shugart, Tinderbox Press, Mount Pleasant, SC, 2013 (the most popular watch price guide on the market at the time, but now no longer in print) lists the below ratings of quantities. Although the assignment of 'Stars' elsewhere in the book may be open to debate (or in some instances, is demonstrably incorrect), the definitions used are as good as any in establishing the meanings of terms such as rare, scarce, etc.

Star Ratings

No. of Stars	Term	Quantity
*****	Rare	1-25
****	Scarce	100
***	Very Few	350
**	Sparse	1,000
*	Uncommon	2,500

 

[Kent]

Just found the encyclopedia section, maybe I can find more there.

There is a lot of useful information in the Encyclopedia articles. Here are some helpful category lists, , especially the items and links listed in each article's References section.

American Watch Makers
Watch Case Makers
Railroad Watches
Jobbers Catalogs.

Unfortunately, many of the links in our Encyclopedia articles were disrupted when we changed to the current version of our Message Board and its been a long process getting them all reinstated. So, if you come across a broken link and want to see what it led to, just let us know and we'll try and post it.

Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

Good luck,

 

[topspin]

Steve, a good next step to consider, is to pick one or just a few areas of interest (e.g. particular models, grades, styles, eras, retailers, case makers, dial types, or whatever) to focus your attention on.

If you can narrow down each question to one area of interest, it will make it easier to find or formulate more specific answers.
For example, if you ask "What are all the models that a certain manufacturer made in grade X" or "What are all the grades that a certain manufacturer made in model Y, starting with the highest or starting with the rarest" or "What are the different cases made or sold by Z" (etc) then we can usually help quite a bit.

As a rule of thumb, when comparing any 2 or more watches against each other, the best one is the one which has recently been serviced by someone who knows what he's doing.

 

[Clint Geller]

One of the earliest and most interesting American watch manufacturers was E. Howard & Co. This company used no formal grading system until 1884, though their first movements may have been completed as early as December 1858. This lack of public-facing Howard watch grade documentation makes it more challenging to distinguish among the many distinct quality levels among this company's early production. However, the surviving factory records, most of which include movement inventory values or sales prices, do make it possible to define a sort of functional grading system for EH&Co's pre-1884 production that maps onto their post-1884 grading system. This functional grading system and its correspondences with the EH&Co post-1884 grading system were first described in my 2005 NAWCC book, which is available to NAWCC members from the NAWCC Lending Library, but this same information is now more widely available here.