Warren Warren Clock Co Master Clock Type B Modified Dial motion work? HELP PLEASE

[Aussie64]

Hi all,
Strong recent interest in electric horology, recently acquiring a Eureka dial clock & an early pul-syn-etic master clock. (No 411 from memory)
Today I picked up an early (No 40) Warren Clock Co Master clock but am somewhat amused / confused by the modifications / additions added to the dial (see pics)
What I need to establish is are these mods significant, important, official or backyarder? and would I be better of leaving alone, removing, or restoring etc.
I can see no other clocks that have hade these changes. I doubted there originality because they covered the dial writing and no manufacturer would do that?
Look forward to any help / suggestions / advice
Regards
Mick

 

[Dick C]

It would be interesting to see a photo of the wires where they exit the clock as well as a photo of the dial from two perspectives. The first being one showing the complete dial with what appears to be an adjusting rod; the second being a side view of the mechanism taken from the side of the dial with the "3".

I have owned two Master B clocks; however, have no idea as to what the mechanism does; perhaps a simple way to adjust the large dial without having to touch the hand?

It is hard to believe that the mechanism is powered by AC and or a high DC voltage?

 

[JDToumanian]

The pictures Dick is requesting will help... But my *guess* is that the added mechanism's contacts would have been wired to some kind of alarm so that if the electrical frequency starts drifting, the power plant operator is alerted and can make the necessary corrections.

It appears nicely made, and whatever it turns out to be, I would definitely not remove it... It's an important part of that clock's history, and makes it unique.

Regards,
Jon

 

[ElectricTime]

I've never seen one like this (I have a type b also) - I would agree that it's probably a high and low side frequency drift alarm. There seems to be three wires plus a ground - and a single pole double throw switch - one side fast drift - maybe the other side low drift.

 

[swolf]

Mick,

I have several of these and have never seen one that says "Patents Pending" and/or "Warren Clock Company". The only patent date on the dog tags on your clock is 1918. My *guess* is that you have a very early model/prototype?

 

[Aussie64]

Thanks for the feedback so far, lots of good suggestions, I will add some additional pics and see if that can add some more detail.
The 2 wires from the White terminal block go to 1), the switch on the side of the case and up to one side of the AC motor, 2) to the other side of the winding coil on the AC motor. See attached pic of motor tag and close up of how motor is fitted.
The 3 wires from the black terminal block go through the dial to the contact set on the front of the dial.
The adjusting knob protruding out the side of the case, when pushed in, all the little gears engage and you can turn the big hand (small hand on RHS also turns.

 

[Aussie64]

Extra pictures have now been added Dick. Tanks for your input thus far.

 

[Aussie64]

I am starting to think that a drift alarm is the most plausible option. If the large hand moves 1 or 2 minutes that is sufficient for that small drum barrel to rotate several times and open or close the contact points. The 3 wires from the dial contacts go straight to the terminal block on top of the clock (not to any mains supply!!) see pics

 

[ElectricTime]

I would plug it in and try - stopping the pendulum or unplugging the power (after it's wound) - you will know quickly enough.

BTW - it looks like 50HZ, Not 60HZ ?

also - don't like the clock run down - if I remember correctly - it can damage it.

 

[Aussie64]

Yeah, sounds like a plan. I almost plugged it in today, but not happy with spring power being delivered up the train. ( might have a tight pivot or similar) nothing looks damaged but it does look more complicated to let the spring down and dismantle than a standard 8 day clock. I am also traveling interstate tomorrow morning (11.30pm here now) so may have to Waite till the weekend
I still haven't figured out the relationship (workings) between the spring and the electric motor? If I understand it , if the power on the electric motor drifts lower or higher it will show up as a difference on the large hand? ie, if the 2 are not in sync it will show up as a variance ? or is the spring only a backup in the event of a power failure?
I think I need more information on the workings of this clock!!

 

[Dick C]

As I remember, spring removal is simpler than most clocks as one doesn't have to take the plates apart....only the small plate covering the spring....could be wrong, then again??

If you were to run the clock without power then the spring unwinds. The purpose of the electrical side is to power the mechanism so the spring winds....so you should be able to see if the clock runs without plugging it in. Now, you can also test to see if the power side runs by removing the small gear attached to the rotor...I believe that it should rotate at 1 RPM (at least in the U.S.)

You are correct about the large hand.....the variance was used to control the generator output so that it put out the correct frequency.

Here is a pointer to some great information:

http://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteReferencePages/WarrenTelechronHistory.html

 

[ElectricTime]

The motor also is used for the frequency deviation - if that is a 50HZ motor - the difference engine is going to run fast at the rate of 60/50=1.2 - to make the pointer read 0 I would suppose you could speed up the pendulum.

also the parts added on the dial - look like they were nickel plated - and look somewhat like the Type E master clock I have.

BTW - you we have a large collection of telechron clocks - you can view them here.

 

[swolf]

Good description how the Master Type B worked - http://www.ephf.ca/Blog.asp?id=81&title=Master-Clock

 

[harold bain]

Yeah, sounds like a plan. I almost plugged it in today, but not happy with spring power being delivered up the train. ( might have a tight pivot or similar) nothing looks damaged but it does look more complicated to let the spring down and dismantle than a standard 8 day clock. I am also traveling interstate tomorrow morning (11.30pm here now) so may have to Waite till the weekend
I still haven't figured out the relationship (workings) between the spring and the electric motor? If I understand it , if the power on the electric motor drifts lower or higher it will show up as a difference on the large hand? ie, if the 2 are not in sync it will show up as a variance ? or is the spring only a backup in the event of a power failure?
I think I need more information on the workings of this clock!!

I think Australia uses 220 volts 60 cps. If so, do not plug that motor in, as it will quickly fry.Yoda

 

[Aussie64]

Thanks for all the information guys, I will have a good read through in the hotel room tonight!
I actually must run now or I will miss my flight.
I final point I am very curious about. Do you think it was modified at the factory or by a worker/tradesman at the local plant ?

 

[ElectricTime]

I missed that you are located in Australia - Important - do NOT plug this clock in without a step down transformer.

The name plate is 110Volts/50 Hertz - which is not standard voltage in Australia - but it is the correct Hertz/frequency - you will need to use a step down transformer 230V to 110V to make this work and not burn up.

I think this might have been made this way at the factory. Seems too involved for an onsite installation.

 

[swolf]

Fun Fact: When the Boulder Dam was constructed, Los Angeles was feed electricity at a frequency of 60-cycles replacing the former 50-cycle electricity serving the city. Telechron played a part in modifying 50,000 electric clocks so they would run correctly... http://www.telechron.net/features/boulder.htm

 

[JDToumanian]

1 final point I am very curious about. Do you think it was modified at the factory or by a worker/tradesman at the local plant ?

I was thinking that an outside supplier may have offered the alarm unit as an add-on kit back in the day... It would be interesting to look in trade magazines of the power generating industry from that era.

Jon

 

[Steven Sandberg]

What was someone attempting by adding the bridge across the gap in the field? I can't tell from the photo whether it is a ferrous metal bridge.

That is an interesting addition on the dial. Since it greatly limits the range of the long hand it was expected that any drift would be kept small.

Steven Sandberg
Malaga WA

 

[ElectricTime]

I don't see a bridge - and the drum seems to be a nice way to make a simple cam.

 

[Steven Sandberg]

Sorry, I did not make my self clear. I was referring to the motor field in the second set of pictures. It looks like a couple pieces of metal glued in with JB Weld bridging the field gap. I can not imagine what someone was thinking in doing that.

Steven Sandberg
Malaga WA

 

[Aussie64]

If you were to run the clock without power then the spring unwinds. The purpose of the electrical side is to power the mechanism so the spring winds....so you should be able to see if the clock runs without plugging it in. Now, you can also test to see if the power side runs by removing the small gear attached to the rotor...I believe that it should rotate at 1 RPM (at least in the U.S.)

Here is a pointer to some great information:

http://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteReferencePages/WarrenTelechronHistory.html

Thanks Dick, helpful information. I now have a basic understanding of how this clock should work. When I get home I will remove the small gear and test the electric motor (with a 240 - 110V step down transformer!!) Then try and work out why the clockwork part isn't working. I suspect that will require taking all the modified front gears & hands of so I can remove the movement to let down the spring. (spring is easy to get to, but the ratchet is underneath which will make it harder in the case)

 

[Aussie64]

Sorry, I did not make my self clear. I was referring to the motor field in the second set of pictures. It looks like a couple pieces of metal glued in with JB Weld bridging the field gap. I can not imagine what someone was thinking in doing that.

Steven Sandberg
Malaga WA

Oh yeah, now I see what you are referring to. I hadn't noticed that before?

 

[Aussie64]

Mick,

I have several of these and have never seen one that says "Patents Pending" and/or "Warren Clock Company". The only patent date on the dog tags on your clock is 1918. My *guess* is that you have a very early model/prototype?

Do all your clocks only have 1 terminal block on top with 2 wires? going to the AC motor?

 

[ElectricTime]

I've never seen anything like this either - maybe because to stop it from buzzing.

 

[swolf]

Do all your clocks only have 1 terminal block on top with 2 wires? going to the AC motor?

No terminal block, just two wires exiting the case to AC outlet.