Warning Wheel With Two Pins

[Vint]

I’ve switched my attention from Ingraham for the moment to an Ansonia clock kitchen type model “Clarence” which someone was going to discard. In putting the movement back together I see the warning wheel has two warning pins and I’m wondering why? Can someone please enlighten me? Here is a pic of the movement front plate for reference. Thank you.

 

[wow]

Are you sure it’s not the third wheel and has two pins that lift the strike hammer tail?

 

[Jim Hartog]

Hello Vint,

I'm going to say that one is for the odd hours and the other is for the even hours. I had an Ingraham once that had one of the two pins broken (the pins were the type pressed out of a gear spoke). It would strike one correctly, but then at two o'clock, it wouldn't stop at two (even), it would strike two then three which totaled five (odd) so it could stop.

I may be wrong.

Jim

 

[Vint]

Are you sure it’s not the third wheel and has two pins that lift the strike hammer tail?

I’ll send a better pic. Thnx

 

[Vint]

Are you sure it’s not the third wheel and has two pins that lift the strike hammer tail?

It’s the 4th wheel. Here is a good pic showing both pins.

 

[Dave T]

I just ran into the same thing on a New Haven. And wondered the same as you. However, I set it up with sufficient run time going into warning and have had no issues.
But I still don't know why it has two pins.
I didn't study it to see if it uses both pins or not.

 

[wow]

Perhaps it was done that way so no matter how you assemble that wheel it will cut off the train. No need to adjust the third and forth wheels?

 

[Vint]

I just ran into the same thing on a New Haven. And wondered the same as you. However, I set it up with sufficient run time going into warning and have had no issues.
But I still don't know why it has two pins.
I didn't study it to see if it uses both pins or not.

How close to the warning lever did you position a pin….

 

[Dave T]

As I recall it needs to be positioned near the top of the frame, in order for the maintenance cam to move enought to allow the count lever to clear notch as it goes into warning, about half of turn of the warning wheel.
If you have both pins in a near vertical position it should be about right. And if it isn't you can spread the frame slightly to reposition the wheel.

 

[R. Croswell]

Perhaps it was done that way so no matter how you assemble that wheel it will cut off the train. No need to adjust the third and forth wheels?

I believe you will find that there are two notches on the Maintenance cam as well. Not sure why this design was used.
RC

 

[wow]

That makes sense, R.C.

 

[R. Croswell]

That makes sense, R.C.

I found this picture of an Ansonia movement from one of my clocks. Note the maintenance cam also has two notches. As for why, that's an interesting question. It would appear that the maintenance cam would only need to rotate at half the speed, perhaps this would result is a quieter running strike train? I really don't know why.

RC

 

[Vint]

I found this picture of an Ansonia movement from one of my clocks. Note the maintenance cam also has two notches. As for why, that's an interesting question. It would appear that the maintenance cam would only need to rotate at half the speed, perhaps this would result is a quieter running strike train? I really don't know why.

RC

View attachment 708850

 

[Vint]

Well, here it is the end of June and I’m still having a heck of a time getting the strike to work as designed.I have the time train working great. I’ve got the CW 1/8” above the CW teeth, the CW lever drops deep into its slot (if I slowly turn 3rd wheel) with the maintenance lever dropping into its slot simultaneously. On its own the CW doesn’t drop into slot on its own.

 

[R. Croswell]

Well, here it is the end of June and I’m still having a heck of a time getting the strike to work as designed.I have the time train working great. I’ve got the CW 1/8” above the CW teeth, the CW lever drops deep into its slot (if I slowly turn 3rd wheel) with the maintenance lever dropping into its slot simultaneously. On its own the CW doesn’t drop into slot on its own.

Make sure the count lever blade enters the CW slot straight, centered, and at no point contacts either edge of the slot.

RC

 

[wow]

Well, here it is the end of June and I’m still having a heck of a time getting the strike to work as designed.I have the time train working great. I’ve got the CW 1/8” above the CW teeth, the CW lever drops deep into its slot (if I slowly turn 3rd wheel) with the maintenance lever dropping into its slot simultaneously. On its own the CW doesn’t drop into slot on its own.

The maintenance lever must also be in the center of it’s slot. If off one tooth, it will knock the CW lever out of the deep slot. Also, the lever that stops the warn wheel (S-4) must be just above the stop pin as the wheel turns. Sometimes it is too low and touches the pin as it turns knocking the lever upward.

 

[shutterbug]

Often they have helper springs (made from thin spring wire) to help the lever fall properly.

 

[Vint]

The maintenance lever must also be in the center of it’s slot. If off one tooth, it will knock the CW lever out of the deep slot. Also, the lever that stops the warn wheel (S-4) must be just above the stop pin as the wheel turns. Sometimes it is too low and touches the pin as it turns knocking the lever upward.

This is the first arbor having 4 levers that I’ve worked on. Ive worked on many 3 lever arbors and have not had problems whatsoever. The warning wheel has two pins of which one serves as the lock lever and the other pin being the warning pin. Im hoping someone can steer me in the right direction as to tips reinstalling a 4 lever arbor. Thanks

 

[wow]

Can you show us the four lever arbor? I’m confused.

 

[R. Croswell]

This is the first arbor having 4 levers that I’ve worked on. Ive worked on many 3 lever arbors and have not had problems whatsoever. The warning wheel has two pins of which one serves as the lock lever and the other pin being the warning pin. Im hoping someone can steer me in the right direction as to tips reinstalling a 4 lever arbor. Thanks

OK, I'' try. It always helps to have better pictures of the exact movement we are discussing, but this is a typical Ansonia movement where the strike control arbor has 4 levers. First, the 4th wheel has two pins because the maintenance cam has two notches. Both pins have the same function, one is NOT a stop pin and the other a warning pin. Because there are two notches in the cam, the clock simply strikes two times for each revolution of the cam. So if the clock only needs to strike once (or an odd number) the strike sequence may end with the cam drop lever in either notch, and either one of the 4th wheel pins may be the "stop pin".

Looking at the picture, Ansonias typically have a flat brass lever attached inside the movement plate. This lever is moved by the minute hand rotation. This brass lever presses against the lifting lever and moves the stop lever away from one of the stop pins. The 4th wheel turns a partial turn (the warning run) and the same pin is arrested by the end of the flat brass lever which is the warning lever. When the flat brass warning lever drops signaling the strike sequence to begin, the stop pin is released, the strike train runs until the count lever blade in in one of the deep slots of the count wheel AND the cam drop lever drops into one of the cam notches. At that point the stop lever drops in position to arrest one of the two stop pins on the 4th wheel and the striking ends. Each pin therefore is a stop pin and warning pin depending on which lever it is arrested by. I hope this helps.
]
]RC

 

[Vint]

OK, I'' try. It always helps to have better pictures of the exact movement we are discussing, but this is a typical Ansonia movement where the strike control arbor has 4 levers. First, the 4th wheel has two pins because the maintenance cam has two notches. Both pins have the same function, one is NOT a stop pin and the other a warning pin. Because there are two notches in the cam, the clock simply strikes two times for each revolution of the cam. So if the clock only needs to strike once (or an odd number) the strike sequence may end with the cam drop lever in either notch, and either one of the 4th wheel pins may be the "stop pin".

Looking at the picture, Ansonias typically have a flat brass lever attached inside the movement plate. This lever is moved by the minute hand rotation. This brass lever presses against the lifting lever and moves the stop lever away from one of the stop pins. The 4th wheel turns a partial turn (the warning run) and the same pin is arrested by the end of the flat brass lever which is the warning lever. When the flat brass warning lever drops signaling the strike sequence to begin, the stop pin is released, the strike train runs until the count lever blade in in one of the deep slots of the count wheel AND the cam drop lever drops into one of the cam notches. At that point the stop lever drops in position to arrest one of the two stop pins on the 4th wheel and the striking ends. Each pin therefore is a stop pin and warning pin depending on which lever it is arrested by. I hope this helps.
]
]RC

View attachment 714777

 

[Vint]

It does help indeed especially having a better understanding of the 4th wheel and pin functions.
One more question …. In terms of wire lever bending is it recommended to bend at the joint where the wire meets the arbor or halfway up the lever or near the end of the lever? I’ve wondered as I’ve seen some pretty managed wire levers. Thanks

 

[Vint]

OK, I'' try. It always helps to have better pictures of the exact movement we are discussing, but this is a typical Ansonia movement where the strike control arbor has 4 levers. First, the 4th wheel has two pins because the maintenance cam has two notches. Both pins have the same function, one is NOT a stop pin and the other a warning pin. Because there are two notches in the cam, the clock simply strikes two times for each revolution of the cam. So if the clock only needs to strike once (or an odd number) the strike sequence may end with the cam drop lever in either notch, and either one of the 4th wheel pins may be the "stop pin".

Looking at the picture, Ansonias typically have a flat brass lever attached inside the movement plate. This lever is moved by the minute hand rotation. This brass lever presses against the lifting lever and moves the stop lever away from one of the stop pins. The 4th wheel turns a partial turn (the warning run) and the same pin is arrested by the end of the flat brass lever which is the warning lever. When the flat brass warning lever drops signaling the strike sequence to begin, the stop pin is released, the strike train runs until the count lever blade in in one of the deep slots of the count wheel AND the cam drop lever drops into one of the cam notches. At that point the stop lever drops in position to arrest one of the two stop pins on the 4th wheel and the striking ends. Each pin therefore is a stop pin and warning pin depending on which lever it is arrested by. I hope this helps.
]
]RC

View attachment 714777

BTW, the lever in your pic is identical to mine.

 

[R. Croswell]

It does help indeed especially having a better understanding of the 4th wheel and pin functions.
One more question …. In terms of wire lever bending is it recommended to bend at the joint where the wire meets the arbor or halfway up the lever or near the end of the lever? I’ve wondered as I’ve seen some pretty managed wire levers. Thanks

I would not bend a wire lever at the point of attachment.

RC

 

[Vint]

I would not bend a wire lever at the point of attachment.

RC

Here are two pics one a video showing the front and a still pic just to show where the warning pin and lift lever is positioned at completion of strike at lock. I’m open to all any advice,lol.

I would not bend a wire lever at the point of attachment.

RC

[ATTACHREUSE]

 

[Vint]

 

[R. Croswell]

A run on strike like this is usually caused when neither of the stop pins is in position to be arrested when the cam lever is in the cam notch. The cam keeps turning and lifts the stop lever and striking continues

Restrain and let down both main springs, loosen the bolts holding the plates together in the area of the stop wheel. Make sure the court blade is in a deep notch AND that the lever is in the cam notch. Spread the plates enough to separate the stop/warning wheel pinion from the driving gear and, without letting any of the other gears turn, reposition the stop/warning wheel so one of the pins is closer to the stop lever and slip the wheel back in place. Tighten the bolts.

RC

 

[John P]

In Ansonia movements are not forgiving, the strike must be set correctly if you expect them to work right.
In your video, there is no warning run. You must have a warning cycle.


First rule .... the strike lever paddle, must be bent to point straight down at the center of the main wheel arbor. IMPORTANT and dead center (not touching either side) in a count wheel deep slot, (wiggle the count wheel back and forth and verify this adjustment) and the wire dead center of the maintenance cam slot (not touching either side) IMPORTANT...and the stop wheel locked on a pin, (just the thickness of the pin)


I assemble this movement with the top 2 wheels left out You must get the first rule set right before continuing.
Then you install the stop wheel in the locked position with a pin, then the fly. Roll the wheels around and recheck each position and make adjustments accordingly. (you may have to move the stop wheel a tooth or two)
If you have to back up, do so. It's not going to work right unless you do the correct set up.

It's very disappointing to get this movement back in the case and 2 days later it has jumped forward a half hour.
Every one of us has had this happen and it always goes back to incorrect strike set up.

I hope this helps
johnp

 

[R. Croswell]

In Ansonia movements are not forgiving, the strike must be set correctly if you expect them to work right.
In your video, there is no warning run. You must have a warning cycle.


First rule .... the strike lever paddle, must be bent to point straight down at the center of the main wheel arbor. IMPORTANT and dead center (not touching either side) in a count wheel deep slot, (wiggle the count wheel back and forth and verify this adjustment) and the wire dead center of the maintenance cam slot (not touching either side) IMPORTANT...and the stop wheel locked on a pin, (just the thickness of the pin)


I assemble this movement with the top 2 wheels left out You must get the first rule set right before continuing.
Then you install the stop wheel in the locked position with a pin, then the fly. Roll the wheels around and recheck each position and make adjustments accordingly. (you may have to move the stop wheel a tooth or two)
If you have to back up, do so. It's not going to work right unless you do the correct set up.

It's very disappointing to get this movement back in the case and 2 days later it has jumped forward a half hour.
Every one of us has had this happen and it always goes back to incorrect strike set up.

I hope this helps
johnp

To what John said, I'll add that there are no shortcuts to getting is properly setup. You cannot compensate for improper setup by "bending stuff" to avoid separating the plates.

RC

 

[Vint]

In Ansonia movements are not forgiving, the strike must be set correctly if you expect them to work right.
In your video, there is no warning run. You must have a warning cycle.


First rule .... the strike lever paddle, must be bent to point straight down at the center of the main wheel arbor. IMPORTANT and dead center (not touching either side) in a count wheel deep slot, (wiggle the count wheel back and forth and verify this adjustment) and the wire dead center of the maintenance cam slot (not touching either side) IMPORTANT...and the stop wheel locked on a pin, (just the thickness of the pin)


I assemble this movement with the top 2 wheels left out You must get the first rule set right before continuing.
Then you install the stop wheel in the locked position with a pin, then the fly. Roll the wheels around and recheck each position and make adjustments accordingly. (you may have to move the stop wheel a tooth or two)
If you have to back up, do so. It's not going to work right unless you do the correct set up.

It's very disappointing to get this movement back in the case and 2 days later it has jumped forward a half hour.
Every one of us has had this happen and it always goes back to incorrect strike set up.

I hope this helps
johnp

 

[Vint]

How far should the drop/maintenance lever be in its slot? I understand what you’re saying about the CW lever.

 

[wow]

How far should the drop/maintenance lever be in its slot? I understand what you’re saying about the CW lever.

It should be exactly in the center of the slot and drop almost to the bottom of the slot.

 

[John P]

The depth of the wire drop into the maintenance cam will determine how high the paddle if lifted when running. Too far down will raise the paddle too high. The paddle should lift about 1/8 above the count wheel teeth when running.

johnp

 

[R. Croswell]

If any of these strike control levers has been messed with there will be a high probability that more than one of them will require adjustment. Begin with the count lever blade or paddle in the bottom of one of the deep slots in the count wheel and the drop centered in the slot of the maintenance cam as already described. Once that is done do not adjust these any further. Next, adjust the stop lever so that it arrests the full diameter of the stop pin (being careful not to bend the count lever or drop lever). Lastly, adjust the lifting lever (photo post #20) so that the stop lever lifts enough to release the stop pin for the warning run a couple minutes before striking begins.

The "first" adjustments affect all the others, but the later adjustments do not affect earlier adjustments if done in this order.

RC

 

[Vint]

It should be exactly in the center of the slot and drop almost to the bottom of the slot.

Thank you. This helps a lot.

 

[Vint]

The depth of the wire drop into the maintenance cam will determine how high the paddle if lifted when running. Too far down will raise the paddle too high. The paddle should lift about 1/8 above the count wheel teeth when running.

johnp

I didn’t realize how much control the wire drop has over the CW paddle. Thank you again John.

 

[Vint]

If any of these strike control levers has been messed with there will be a high probability that more than one of them will require adjustment. Begin with the count lever blade or paddle in the bottom of one of the deep slots in the count wheel and the drop centered in the slot of the maintenance cam as already described. Once that is done do not adjust these any further. Next, adjust the stop lever so that it arrests the full diameter of the stop pin (being careful not to bend the count lever or drop lever). Lastly, adjust the lifting lever (photo post #20) so that the stop lever lifts enough to release the stop pin for the warning run a couple minutes before striking begins.

The "first" adjustments affect all the others, but the later adjustments do not affect earlier adjustments if done in this order.

RC

All four wire levers were mangled. This information is what I was wanting and it make much more sense to me. I think I was inadvertently bending the count lever & drop lever as I was trying to adjust the stop lever. I do appreciate your assistance as well as Johnp and WOW.