American PW Waltham Vanguard mystery

[Timothy Davis]

I bought a Waltham 23 jewel vanguard U.S. Army A.C serial number 27443584. I recieved the watch in the mail today I ran the serial it shows this watch as a lever set. As I was looking at the watch I noticed it was a Pendent set So when I started taking it apart to clean and service the watch I got the dial off and around the 56 min mark looks to be where the lever set would go. Which brings me to My first question can you convert a lever set to a pendent set? My second question is most lever sets are on the right hand side of the movement why is this on the left could this have been a wind indicator watch that was converted to fit this case and dial. I included pictures thanks Tim

 

[DaveyG]

Question 1 - yes, but I don't see the necessary shippers & shipper spring etc to operate a pendant setting option. Question 2 - the setting lever on later model Vanguards is positioned on the left to accommodate the wind indicator mechanism where fitted. The wheels that you see on the right of the clutch & crown wheels are the wind indicator transfer wheels which you will find, when you dismantle further, are geared to the mainspring barrel. As you surmise the watch is a wind indicator movement that has been altered to accomodate the dial and possibly the case style. Maybe the WI hand pivot broke off and rather than repair (parts are hard to come by) a previous owner has disguised the breakage.

 

[Timothy Davis]

DaveyG thanks Im a very happy guy right now. I know these are highly collectable. Where other than ebay would I start to find the parts needed also is there anything that shows the break down so I know which parts are missing thanks Tim

 

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi Tim,

Which brings me to My first question can you convert a lever set to a pendent set?

Usually not. But younger American calibres have both options, to make cases without latch in the pendant usable. While the Waltham 1899 still had both, the successor 1908 was usually delivered as pendant set, and needed the additional lever to make it lever settable. Only few luxury samples like yours were equipped with the lever right from factory. And this is actually mentioned in the production records.

My second question.... could this have been a wind indicator watch

DaveyG put yout attention already to the wind indicator gear, and books tell sometimes more than web look-ups: Your watch was actually recorded as equipped with wind indicator.

As far as I see, only the last wheel carrying the pointer, and its bridge are missing. It will be between impossible and time-consuming to find these parts, but the value of samples with wind indicator makes it even worth while to adapt any fitting wheel and make the (simple) bridge.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

 

[Timothy Davis]

Hi Tim,


Usually not. But younger American calibres have both options, to make cases without latch in the pendant usable. While the Waltham 1899 still had both, the successor 1908 was usually delivered as pendant set, and needed the additional lever to make it lever settable. Only few luxury samples like yours were equipped with the lever right from factory. And this is actually mentioned in the production records.


DaveyG put yout attention already to the wind indicator gear, and books tell sometimes more than web look-ups: Your watch was actually recorded as equipped with wind indicator.

As far as I see, only the last wheel carrying the pointer, and its bridge are missing. It will be between impossible and time-consuming to find these parts, but the value of samples with wind indicator makes it even worth while to adapt any fitting wheel and make the (simple) bridge.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

Roland thanks for the info

 

[sderek]

DaveyG thanks Im a very happy guy right now. I know these are highly collectable. Where other than ebay would I start to find the parts needed also is there anything that shows the break down so I know which parts are missing thanks Tim

Try the suppliers mentioned in the "parts sources" sticky. I suspect Bryan, Brian, or Bob may be able to supply the parts you need. If they don't have them, I'd try Dave Coatsworth (Dave's Watch Parts) or Mechanical Watch Supply.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Thanks Sderek I will check them out right now Thanks

 

[ben_hutcherson]

While the Waltham 1899 still had both, the successor 1908 was usually delivered as pendant set, and needed the additional lever to make it lever settable. Only few luxury samples like yours were equipped with the lever right from factory. And this is actually mentioned in the production records.

I don't agree with this statement.

Virtually all railroad grade 1908 models were lever set. I'm including in this the Vanguard, Crescent St., Riverside, and 645 grades.

Out of 2.5 million 1908 models, these grades represent a little under 500,000 units.

I wouldn't call this "few."

 

[Timothy Davis]

Ben I know that 1908's had the lever set on both sides the ones on the left being for WI's how many of the WI's were made

 

[ben_hutcherson]

Try this article:

http://nawcc.org/images/stories/publications/railroaders_column_pdfs/372_51.pdf
(must be logged in through the SSO system to read it)

The Waltham 16 size WIs are significantly more common than those of any other company.

I have owned a couple and seen quite a few other non-WI Vanguards that have the 56-minute set lever. I have also seen this on Riversides and a couple of other grades. The only 1908 Vanguard I have currently, a 19 million range 23 jewel, has the normal 6 minute set lever. I believe that the change-over was likely made to simplify production(avoiding having separate setting parts for WI and non-WI watches), but I've never seen any documentation stating this.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Thanks Ben as always great info It's interesting that the serial number range for the one I have is not reported as a WI. Could that be just missed data that was lost along the way also what is a hacking mechanism what's it look like,and were they common

 

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi Ben,

Out of 2.5 million 1908 models, these grades represent a little under 500,000 units.
I wouldn't call this "few."

Just browsed the records between 1908 and 1945:
Some 1500 runs of the 1908 were made, and some 250 of them were equipped with setting lever. This looks like 16.7%.
But only high grade movements got the lever, and they were produced in batches between 100 and 1000 pieces, while the cheaper were made in batches between 1000 and 5000 pieces. Just taking the averages, the percentage with lever is reduced to 3%.

It is a matter of taste, I call 3% few, you call them many.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

 

[ben_hutcherson]

I would not rely on grey book designations of lever vs. pendant set. Rather, as I said, I would rely on grades.

As I stated above, to my knowledge, all or nearly all examples of the Vanguard, Crescent St. 645, and Riverside grades were set lever equipped. As these considered and advertised as railroad grade watches, and at the time when the majority of these were made, railroad time service requirements largely specified lever setting, this is only logical that the watches would be so equipped.

Rather than relying on averages, I went through and tallied production quantities of each of these, and then tallied total production numbers for all grades of 1908 movements.

Doing this, I calculated 16.9% as being equipped with a set lever. The number I totaled was some 450,000(I don't have my notes in front of me this very second).

That's not including Riverside Maximus grade watches, most of which were pendant set but a not-insigificant number of which were lever set.

I suppose it comes down to definitions, but I don't consider this to be few.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Ben or Roland could you tell me out of all the runs how many where marked with the U.S. Army A.C. I feel as if I may have a rare movement Thanks

 

[richiec]

I did a quickie check of some Waltham records and came up with at least 19,200 23 jewel Vanguards with wind indicators, lever set, 6 positions etc. No mention of how many had U.S. Army on them.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Thanks Richiec

 

[Timothy Davis]

Could someone Help me with the WI part names and numbers I emailed alot of people from the parts sources. I recieved a email asking for the names and part numbers. Also While Im on here is there buy any chance a breakdown of this watch showing all the parts Thanks Tim

 

[Jim Haney]

Tim,
Most, if not all Military watches, have a hack feature, which stops the balance when the stem is pulled up. Does this one? Have you had the plates off?

You would see this around the stem/clutch and a lever or wire that would contact the balance wheel when the clutch was put in set mode.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Jim I didnt see one when I took the watch apart to clean. I dont know if when the WI/lever set parts were removed if the hack feature was removed as well to allow for setting. Would there have been a screw hole or specific mark to indicate where it would have been? I can post pictures of the the plates now that I have it taken apart if that would help with seeing if it did or not. Also Would the lever set watches have this same feature? Thanks

 

[DaveyG]

Tim I've attached a couple of scans that show the WI parts for the 1908 model with factory part numbers and descriptions, taken from the Swigart Catalogue. Hope this helps

Also, if you do a search on the American Watch forum for 'Waltham Comparing Watch' I recently posted some pictures of the Waltham hacking parts which, I assume, would be the same on the Vanguard if fitted although I'm not sure how that would operate if the watch is lever set.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Awsome Thanks DaveyG I hoping he has the parts. Im hoping when Jim Get back on he can help with the hacking system with a lever set Thanks again.

 

[Jim Haney]

Tim,
You would have seen a lever or foot at the base of the clutch /Stem sleeve that had a wire of lever that would move down to touch the balance wheel when the stem was pulled up.

 

[Timothy Davis]

Jim No I didnt see one Thanks