Waltham Vanguard model 1908

Shipsbell

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Today I received a Vanguard with the winding indicator feature serial 2534----. As expected with an old watch off ebay it has some issues.
I need to know the nomenclature for the winding indicator and if possible a diagram of that feature with the part numbers and names. Second who ever worked on the watch severally damaged the going barrel and arbor, so I need to ID the correct arbor and barrel so the can be replaced. Th arbor has a sprocket on the top side. Looking forward to hearing from you. Patrick
 

Chris Radek

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I don't know if it's complete but Swigart has the wind indicator parts drawn and listed. I just had one of these in (a 1892, not 1908, but I think the WI are close or the same), and had to remake the pinion on the geneva wheel in the wind indicator.

I think you have the jeweled barrel where the arbor is two pieces that screw apart? If someone didn't know that and tried to pry it apart instead, that would be really bad. These parts are going to be hard to find I'm afraid.
 

Jerry Treiman

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I hope this helps. It is a page from Waltham's 1916 material catalog. (There is a separate page for the 1912 winding indicator)

1908WIparts.jpg
 
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Shipsbell

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I don't know if it's complete but Swigart has the wind indicator parts drawn and listed. I just had one of these in (a 1892, not 1908, but I think the WI are close or the same), and had to remake the pinion on the geneva wheel in the wind indicator.

I think you have the jeweled barrel where the arbor is two pieces that screw apart? If someone didn't know that and tried to pry it apart instead, that would be really bad. These parts are going to be hard to find I'm afraid.
Thanks Chris, for getting back to me, who or what is Swigart and the jeweled barrel, so it screws apart? I haven't seen one of those yet. Can you give me more information. Thanks Patrick
 

Shipsbell

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I hope this helps. It is a page from Waltham's 1916 material catalog. (There is a separate page for the 1912 winding indicator)

View attachment 641513
Jerry I was hoping you would write, I'm the fellow in Sunnyvale with the Riverside Maximus. The copy you sent didn't come through very well so could you try to send it in a different format or even my email:
gspen60676@aol.com
Thanks for your help, Patrick
 

Shipsbell

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I hope this helps. It is a page from Waltham's 1916 material catalog. (There is a separate page for the 1912 winding indicator)

View attachment 641513
Jerry, Would you also have the barrel arbor parts listing, breakdown, Chris suggested that the barrel may unscrew and I haven't seen that arbor so I would like to see what he is talking about. That's again Patrick
 

Jerry Treiman

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I have sent you a larger scan of the material page by email.

Here is a Waltham illustration of their barrel and mainwheel construction. I do not know if the barrel for a winding indicator model differs from this.
WJbarrel.jpg
 
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Chris Radek

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Yes that's the one! For the wind indicator it's the same, but they add teeth on the outside of the barrel.

Patrick, I don't know how to say this in the best way, but if you aren't an expert and you get stuck or don't understand something, stop and ask, because this is a really goofy mechanism and the parts are small and fragile. It depends on correct lubrication of the various friction clutches to work properly and not break itself.
 

Shipsbell

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Yes that's the one! For the wind indicator it's the same, but they add teeth on the outside of the barrel.

Patrick, I don't know how to say this in the best way, but if you aren't an expert and you get stuck or don't understand something, stop and ask, because this is a really goofy mechanism and the parts are small and fragile. It depends on correct lubrication of the various friction clutches to work properly and not break itself.
Hi Chris, I am not bothered by your caution because I also send notes to people not to get in over their heads. I have been collecting watches and clocks for over 40 years and doing the repairs on them. I just finished rebuilding a Chelsea platform escapement replacing jewels, staff and balance spring after I dropped the clock. I was sick but it's running and keeping time. Very pleased. As for this Vanguard, this is the first time I could afford and was willing to spend the money on a "wind indicator" watch. As with every watch I get I tear it down to clean it and that's when I saw the 2 problems listed. I also immediately ask for help and I will be polishing screws, removing the small areas of rust then assembling the watch before I forget how it goes together. I have also taken pictures of the different set-ups so I can remember how it goes back together. When I locate the problem parts I will do the repair.
If you have any drawings, ideas, or experience I am more then willing to learn. From your comment "goofy mechanism" it sounds like you have done repairs on the "wind indicator" . One additional question, is the barrel and arbor the same in all the 1908 watches from Waltham, I'm thinking as an example the Riverside.
Thank you for taking an interest in the questions. Patrick
 

Shipsbell

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I have sent you a larger scan of the material page by email.

Here is a Waltham illustration of their barrel and mainwheel construction. I do not know if the barrel for a winding indicator model differs from this.
View attachment 641546
Jerry, I think they are the same but I asked the question because I'm not sure. It would be nice because I could locate a replacement 1908 barrel. At least now I know what it looks like inside. Thank You Jerry.
Patrick
 

Chris Radek

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No they did not all use the jeweled barrel. If you have the jeweled barrel with teeth on the outside, a replacement will only be found in another wind indicator watch.

The repair I did recently was to make a replacement for a broken pinion on part 4527, the little geneva wheel in the wind indicator train. This is the only picture I have of it (original on the right). It works much better with 8 teeth instead of 7.


1614981696061.png
 

Shipsbell

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Apr 12, 2010
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No they did not all use the jeweled barrel. If you have the jeweled barrel with teeth on the outside, a replacement will only be found in another wind indicator watch.

The repair I did recently was to make a replacement for a broken pinion on part 4527, the little geneva wheel in the wind indicator train. This is the only picture I have of it (original on the right). It works much better with 8 teeth instead of 7.


View attachment 641618
Hi Chris,
Thanks for getting back to me and thank you for your answer on the barrel. When I first looked at the barrel it reminded me of my Riverside Maximus watch that also has the model 1908 movement.
I don't see that part in the parts I removed and the gear missing, it would have to have the indicator hand fit to register the amount of time remaining before the next wind. You also referenced "Swigart" can you tell me what that name is? Thanks Patrick
 

Shipsbell

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Apr 12, 2010
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