Waltham Riverside Maximus

Al2

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I recently bought a 16s, 23j, Riverside Maximus. It has taken a long time. There were many hours and sore knees and legs spent at regionals and nationals looking. I collect railroads and I wanted my Maximus to be lever set. I have been a buyer and seller on eBay since 1998 and I can say that nearly every Maximus I have seen listed is pendant set. Most sellers don’t say and I have sent many emails asking. OK, here is my question. I have read all the old Bulletins and I can say for certain that none of the data published there say how many of these watches were lever set. I know how many were 21j, or 23j and I know how many were open face and hunters. Does anybody out there have any thoughts?
 

Dbailey

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I'm sorry but I can't answer your question...I'm wondering though, if you would have any pendant set Maximus' in at least near mint condition that you would like to sell?...thanks
Dennis
 

Jerry Treiman

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The reason there has been no estimate of the proportion of lever set versus pendant set Riverside Maximus (1899 & 1908 models) is that the Waltham records did not make note of the setting. Waltham certainly advertised the Riv. Max. with or without lever setting and I have heard that the lever-set version is less common but hard data has not been presented. It will take someone diligently recording known examples to begin to shed light on this question. My own lever-set model is #13,006,434 (there is a start for someone).
[13,006,435 sold at an Antiquorum auction in 2001 but the setting was not noted]
 

Al2

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Jerry said:
The reason there has been no estimate of the proportion of lever set versus pendant set Riverside Maximus (1899 & 1908 models) is that the Waltham records did not make note of the setting. Waltham certainly advertised the Riv. Max. with or without lever setting and I have heard that the lever-set version is less common but hard data has not been presented. It will take someone diligently recording known examples to begin to shed light on this question. My own lever-set model is #13,006,434 (there is a start for someone).
[13,006,435 sold at an Antiquorum auction in 2001 but the setting was not noted]
It’s a start but we have a long way to go. There is an excellent article in the April 1985 Bulletin by Steve Lindberg. He analyzed the Waltham production records with respect to the Maximus grades. I can’t find any information published subsequently that improves on his study. My watch has a serial number of 15,044,535 and it is one of 300 open faced movements in a run. Your watch (13,006,434) is also one of 300 open faced movements in a run. Both watches are 23j, 1899 models. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could collect enough data to know if every watch in these runs were all lever set? Possibly someone knows? Speaking of the 23j, 1899 Riverside Maximus he found 46 runs with 24 being open face and 19 being hunting. There were three runs marked 21-23 jewels (two runs were open face and one run was hunting). The totals are 6,250 OF, 3,850 HC, 500 OF in 2 runs marked 21-23 jewels, and 200 HC in one run marked 12-23 jewels.
I think all the hunting movements are pendant set. Of the 6,250 open face (or possibly 6,750 if all the watches in the 21-23 jewel runs are 23 jewel), made in this grade I think very few are lever set. It is worth trying to find out.
Al Dowler
 

Kent

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Just to keep the ball rolling, Ed and I have the following in our data base for the run from which Jerry's watch came:

13,006,434 - LS
13,006,449 - LS
13,006,474 - PS
13,006,478 - Not known
13,006,484 - LS

and for the run from which Al's watch is from:

15,044,535 - LS
15,044,557 - Not known
15,044,561 - PS
15,044,580 - PS
15,044,719 - PS
15,044,722 - PS
15,044,753 - PS

Keep those serial numbers and details coming folks,
 

Al2

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Kent,
I was hoping you and Ed would let me peek into your database. The numbers you posted here blows away my hope that each run was either lever set or pendant set. So we can forget about the easy route? The numbers don’t tend to show if most of these movements were pendant set either. Believe me, from my observations over many years, there were very few lever set movements made. Do you have data from the other 22 runs?

13,006,201-13,006,500 Jerry’s run (3 lever set/1 pendant set)
15,044,501-15,044,800 Al’s run (1 lever set/5 pendant set)

Other runs:

10,552,701-10,553,000
10,587,501-10,588,000
11,029,801-11,030,000
11,076,701-11,077,000
11,510,601-11,511,000
11,534,301-11,534,500
12,030,701-12,031,000
12,585,501-12,585,700
12,563,101-12,563,150
12,680,001-12,680,200
14,022,501-14,022,700
14,049,001-14,049,500
14,059,001-14,059,100
14,144,201-14,144,300
14,199,001-14,199,200
15,061,901-15,062,200
15,118,201-15,118,500
15,131,501-15,132,000
16,071,301-16,071,500
16,177,701-16,178,000
16,194,101-16,194,200
16,196,500-16,196,700
 

Kent

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Hummmm .....
Bear in mind that a goodly portion of the data on the Riverside Max watches whose serial numbers are listed below came from the lists of mail order dealers. I've always felt that some of these dealers had intentionally not listed the setting method of pendant-set watches so as to not immediately discourage the railroad watch collectors. However, I have no firm reason for that belief, nor should one automatically read the term "Not known" as meaning pendant-set.

And, as always when Ed and I post information from our data base, it is subject to our errors in recording and entering the data as well as errors of the sources in listing the information for those watches we didn't see for ourselves.

Corrections and/or additional information would be most welcome.

10,552,701-10,553,000
10,552,805 - Not known
10,552,840 - Not known
10,552,855 - PS
10,552,935 - Not known

10,587,501-10,588,000
10,587,602 - PS
10,587,779 - Not known
10,587,802 - PS

11,029,801-11,030,000
11,029,864 - PS
11,029,873 - Not known
11,029,943 - Not known

11,076,701-11,077,000
11,076,566 - Not known
11,076,791 - PS
11,076,796 - PS
11,076,805 - PS
11,076,821 - PS
11,076,942 - PS
11,076,951 - Not known

11,510,601-11,511,000
11,510,669 - Not known
11,510,678 - Not known
11,510,685 - Not known
11,510,734 - PS
11,510,756 - Not known
11,510,815 - PS
11,510,819 - Not known
11,510,845 - PS
11,510,870 - PS
11,510,918 - Not known
11,510,964 - PS

11,534,301-11,534,500
11,534,162 -
11,534,173 - PS
11,534,189 - PS
11,534,265 - PS
11,534,432 - PS
11,534,484 - LS

12,030,701-12,031,000
12,030,993 - LS

12,585,501-12,585,700

12,563,101-12,563,150

12,680,001-12,680,200
12,680,015 - Not known
12,680,188 - PS

14,022,501-14,022,700
14,022,564 - Not known
14,022,608 - LS
14,022,679 - Not known

14,049,001-14,049,500
14,049,069 - PS
14,049,094 - Not known
14,049,194 - PS
14,049,288 - LS
14,049,485 - LS

14,059,001-14,059,100
14,059,078 - LS

14,144,201-14,144,300
14,144,217 - PS
14,144,228 - Not known
14,144,231 - Not known

14,199,001-14,199,200
14,199,045 - Not known
14,199,088 - Not known
14,199,100 - Not known

15,061,901-15,062,200
15,061,827 - Not known
15,061,830 - Not known
15,061,934 - Not known

15,118,201-15,118,500
15,118,355 - PS
15,118,403 - Not known

15,131,501-15,132,000
15,131,507 - LS
15,131,558 - PS

16,071,301-16,071,500
16,071,081 - PS
16,071,408 - Not known
16,071,453 - Not known
16,071,485 - LS
16,071,485 - Not known

16,177,701-16,178,000
16,177,791 - PS
16,177,917 - Not known

16,194,101-16,194,200

16,196,500-16,196,700
16,196,628 - LS
16,196,731 - PS
16,196,740 - PS
 

Al2

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Every bit of data helps. I think we need a great deal more to see if there is any pattern, don't you. This is a very important watch. One that was made for many years and in large numbers (comparatively) and yet there seems to be scant data beyond the Waltham production records.
Al
 

Bill Tapp

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Here is a lever set Riverside Maximus for your list. All the WI RivMax's I've seen are lever set.

Bill

55.jpg
 

Tom McIntyre

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They are not all non-magnetic are they Bill? :thumb:
 

crsides

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Al2

You mentioned that you knew the split between 21j and 23j.

Can you provided the break out for me/

Thanks
 

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Al2

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Bill said:
Here is a lever set Riverside Maximus for your list. All the WI RivMax's I've seen are lever set.

Bill

55.jpg
Bill,
What a beautiful watch. My query was for information on the 1899, 23j models without the indicator because that is what I have. All the data is welcome, however. The more information we have, the better.
I can’t read the serial number of your watch but it is most certainly an 1899 version. The Waltham records show that all 200 of the 1908 models watches were pendant set. Think of that! There was only one run. For the 1899 W/I version again there was only one run of 100. You have a scarce watch there.
Here is what we think we know: All hunting models were pendant set. All the 1908 W/I models were pendant set. The runs were mixed with some watches being pendant set and some being lever set.
Al
 

Al2

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crsides said:
Al2

You mentioned that you knew the split between 21j and 23j.

Can you provided the break out for me/

Thanks
Hi,
That article in the April 1985 Bulletin is excellent and the product of a great deal of work. As I mentioned there were three runs in the Waltham records that are marked “21-23 jewels”. The total here is 700 with 500 being open face and 200 being hunters. As for the Maximus grades marked 21 jewels there are 2,200 in the 1899 model. Of these 1400 were open face and 800 were hunters. Apparently there were no 1908 models with 21 jewels.
The 21j, OF, L/S, Riverside Maximus, Model 1899 is my next mountain to climb.
Al
 

Al2

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crsides said:
21j 1899 (I think) # 9502274 pendant set.
Hi, According to the records your watch is a 1899 model and interestingly it is from one of the runs that were marked as being mixed 21 and 23 jewels. That is good information, thanks for the input.
Al2
 

Bill Tapp

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Al,
Over the years I have learned that you can't depend very much on the Waltham Serial Number List in several respects. Riverside Maximus 16 size watches are a perfect example. My watch is serial number 14,049,376 and is of course listed as an 1899 model. Examining the watch shows that it has the large ring gear on the crown wheel so it should be a 1908 model. This is typical the winding indicator watches which often were movements that were left over and later finished as indicators. There seem to be more winding indicator Riverside Maximus watches that are not listed than are. The same is true of the lever set watches. With the WI watches you have another complication as they divided between watches with the 1908 indicator, like mine, and the 1912 indicator. Watches with the 1912 mechanism can have either the usual damaskeening or a plainer pattern and often have Lossier’s inner terminal hairspring. Though it would take collecting a lot of numbers to be certain, I’ve always figured there were about 500 winding indicator Riverside Maximus watches made though mine may be the only Non Magnetic judging from how many indicator-less NonMags I’ve seen. Has anyone seen a lever set bridge model 1899 watch?

Bill Tapp
 

rrwatch

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Waltham Riveride Maximus S/N 14,022,608 is a lever set open face movement with a Lossier Innerterminal Hairspring. It is NOT a WI, but is listed as a Model 1899. I cleaned it some years ago and do not remember if it might actually be a Model 1908. If I get some time, I will pull it out of the vault and check.
It has the fancy RM winding wheels with the Lossier marking engraved on it. As with the other Riverside Maximus movements with the Lossier hairspring, it is also engraved "adjusted 6 positions" rather than the "adjusted" marking usually found.
 

Jerry Treiman

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I have been corresponding with a long-time Maximus collector and researcher. His opinion is that the ratio of PS to LS 23j Riverside Maximus (OF) is probably around 50:1. 1908 models probably run about 3:1. He has only heard of one example of a lever-set hunter.
 

Jon Hanson

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What were the ones in the 17M run?

Jon
 

Jon Hanson

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I have 2 in 21 J--is there a DB for these in the 9.5M run?
 

Kent

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Jon:

Ed and I have the following in our data base:

23J RS Max
17,009,589 - Not known
17,009,693 - Not known
17,009,735 - LS
17,009,765 - PS
17,009,797 - Not known

21J RS Max
9,502,108 - PS
9,502,143 - PS
9,502,274 - PS
9,502,316 - PS
9,502,348 - PS
9,502,433 - LS

What are the serial numbers and details of your two watches?


 

Jon Hanson

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Kent said:
Jon:

Ed and I have the following in our data base:

9,502,108 - PS
9,502,143 - PS
9,502,274 - PS
9,502,316 - PS
9,502,348 - PS
9,502,433 - LS

What are the serial numbers and details of your two watches?
HERE ARE TWO I HAVE in 21J:

Open face, 9,502,484, 21 J, PS, diamond endstones, sig script Arabic dial, AWWCo over seconds

Hunting style, 9,532,770 21J, PS, diamond endstones, same dial as above but Roman

Jon


 

Al2

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Jerry said:
I have been corresponding with a long-time Maximus collector and researcher. His opinion is that the ratio of PS to LS 23j Riverside Maximus (OF) is probably around 50:1. 1908 models probably run about 3:1. He has only heard of one example of a lever-set hunter.
I suspect he is right. When I have spotted one of these at a show (they are so easy to recognize because of the Maximus dial) I will look at the seller and say “pendant set?” and almost always it is. I have to go on a trip back east and I will be off line for a week or so. When I get back I plan to start a spread sheet and see if there is some pattern. I have found several references in the old Bulletins that list the serial number and the setting system and I will add that to the information that Kent and Ed have. It would be nice if the long time Maximus collector and researcher would share his data.
 

Jon Hanson

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Happy to assist.

Nice case, Charlie; is it original?

Jon
 

crsides

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Doubt it.

There are a pair of extra case screw marks you can see in the mvt pic on p.1

One between the ratchet & winding wheels and one just past the balance. Any guest as to what was in it.
 

crsides

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I may get a chance to look at a Riv Max WI this week. I would have expected the dial to have the Waltham Script dial with AWWC over the second bits, but Bill's WI shows what looks like a std Vanguard WI dial. Did all Riv Max WI's share the same dial as Bill's.
 

crsides

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It took 6 months and I did not have a camera, but I got a peek at the Riv max WI. It is serial # 23100066.

It has the Lossier Hairspring, rather plain damaskeen for a Riv Max, pressed in jewels except for the center wheel. LEVER SET at the 11:00 position. Dial is the same as Bill's example shown earlier in this thread, a fairly generic Waltham WI dial. Cased in a Waltham RF-7G with a Choo choo on the back. Nice condition. Tom's website lookup says mod 1908 made in a run of 100.

time permitting, I will get a pic tomorrow but it is not looking good at the moment.

Any info I can pass on to the owner would be appreciated.

Charlie
 

rrwatch

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Here are some photos of a Model 1908 Riverside Maximus Wind Indicator, S/N 23,100,098. This is from a run from 12,100,001 through 12,100,200 that are all WIs, lever set, with the plain style damaskeen and Lossier Innerterminal hairsprings. We have 14 different examples reported from this run, or about 7% of the total. These later Riverside Maximus are not nearly as fancy as the earlier examples.
 

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A.F.W.

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I recently bought a 16s, 23j, Riverside Maximus. It has taken a long time. There were many hours and sore knees and legs spent at regionals and nationals looking. I collect railroads and I wanted my Maximus to be lever set. I have been a buyer and seller on eBay since 1998 and I can say that nearly every Maximus I have seen listed is pendant set. Most sellers don’t say and I have sent many emails asking. OK, here is my question. I have read all the old Bulletins and I can say for certain that none of the data published there say how many of these watches were lever set. I know how many were 21j, or 23j and I know how many were open face and hunters. Does anybody out there have any thoughts?
I have a 12 size hunter case in 14K gold. Could you tell me please how many of these were produced ?
Movement # 16027529
137.jpg
 

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Jerry Treiman

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There were probably about 3500 12-size Riverside Maximus made in the hunting case configuration, which is a little less than half the number of open-face movements. This total includes two plate configurations and both 21 and 23 jewel models.
 

Bob Baxter

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Just came across this thread, I usually play in the clock area. I have several pocket watches in my collection, one is a Waltham Riverside Maximus, 12 size, hunter case, pendant set. SN 7116677. This has been in my wife's family for many years and has an ancestors name on the custom dial. Just another data base input.
P.S. forgot to mention, 21 jewel
 

4thdimension

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#19403073 is a 23J. lever set model '99 Riverside Maximus with Lossier's pat..
It has the optional gold metal dial and is in a Waltham signed 18k case with invisible hinge.
-Cort
 

Kent

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Cort:

Would that be lever-set, marked adjuted 6 positions, fitted with a wind indicator?

Thanks,
 

Jerry Freedman

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Here is one more for the data base. #9502459. It is 21J with diamond cap jewels in a 14K R & F case. Pendant set.
 

Kent

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Thanks Jerry!
 

4thdimension

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Cort:
Would that be lever-set, marked adjuted 6 positions, fitted with a wind indicator?
Yes, thank you, sorry for the omission.
So, is #19403073 really an 1899 model or not? My limited understanding of the difference used to be that the '99s lever set right of the crown and the '08s set on the left. My paradigm was blown up when I saw this watch because it sets on the left but is a '99 in the records.

Bill Tapp alluded to a difference in the crown wheel teeth. I have noted a difference in these before but I didn't make the connection, Any other differences I should know about? I might be able to check #19403073 to determine its true grade if I knew what to look for.

-Cort
 

Jerry Treiman

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Here is a comparison photo of the crown wheels and winding arbors for the 1899 model versus the 1908 model Waltham.
 

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4thdimension

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Thank you Jerry. I will see if my pal will let me check the crown wheel on his watch to see if it is an '08 misrecorded as a '99. It seemed odd to me that a run of '99s would come out so long after the '08 model but, perhaps, they were unsold '99s that were fitted with wind indicators to help move them.
-Cort
 

Tom McIntyre

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As long as we are reviving this nice old thread here are a couple more.

Waltham 16 size 1899 Riverside Maximus, 23 jewel, stemwind, pendent set, serial number 16,015,055, ca. 1907. Waltham "Maximus" Arabic numeral dial.
 

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Tom McIntyre

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Waltham 16 size 1899 Riverside Maximus, 23 jewel, stemwind, pendant set, open face, Non-magnetic, serial number 14,049,366, ca. 1904. Double sunk Waltham "Maximus" Arabic numeral dial. A & B 18 karat open face case.
 

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Kent

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Harold & Tom:

Thanks for showing some great watches!
 

crsides

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By just looking at a pic of the movement, how can you tell a LS vs PS Riv Max in the 14,199 xxx range.


Charlie
 

Jerry Treiman

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I don't think there is any way to tell from looking at the movement side, unless it is out of the case and you can glimpse the lever sticking out.
Here is my lever-set example --
 

beta21

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Jerry and Charlie, you can tell if it's PS from the mvt side. Between the bridges you can see the shipper spring for the setting parts. The visible part of this spring is straight and has a pointed angle on the PS watches, whereas it has a smooth curve on the LS watches.
 
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