Waltham "RAIL ROAD" Dial

onsite

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Does anyone know when this dial was first available? 3 varieties appear in the Waltham Watch Materials Catalogue 1909
DSC03114.JPG
I had assumed the "RAIL ROAD" hands, (Also shown and named as such in the 1909 Waltham Catalogue) were only used on this particular dial but an ad from The Railway Conductor, Oct. 1917 would indicate otherwise.
Waltham RR hands RWY Condr Oct.1917  copy.jpeg
 

Marty101

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Hey Neighbor,
I'm not a dial expert,but certainly some dials were meant for the railroad service. I believe men had a limited choice in hands for their railroad pocket watches.
Sometimes all we have to work with is observation,opinion,and old ads. I have seen your particular style on many railroad models such as Vanguard,Crescent Street,and etc. including Wind Indicators. I think they are appropriate for a 645,but I have also seen 2 or 3 SAM_2639.JPG more styles including this one-
 

Larry Treiman

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Does anyone know when this dial was first available? 3 varieties appear in the Waltham Watch Materials Catalogue 1909
225092.jpg
I had assumed the "RAIL ROAD" hands, (Also shown and named as such in the 1909 Waltham Catalogue) were only used on this particular dial but an ad from The Railway Conductor, Oct. 1917 would indicate otherwise.
225091.jpg

Hi, onsite,

You found the three "Rail Road" dials appearing on pages 12 and 13 of the April 1909 catalogue of "Waltham Watch Material" but you missed my two favorite "Rail Road" dials that appear on page 14. Those are the BOLD Roman numeral versions, 2564/2565 (no marginal numerals) and 2576/2577 (red marginal Arabic 5-minute numerals).

Another dial of interest and also labeled "Rail Road" is the 2632 (Gilded)/2633(Silvered) metal dial with more convention but large and quite bold upright Arabic numerals. These Waltham dials featured numerals and markers that were etched into the dial surface and filled with enamel, making for very durable markings. However, it is posssible that the dial surface might have required re-silvering or re-gilding at some time.

As for those "Rail Road Spade" hands (part no. 2664 in 1909), they were for many years the "default" hands used on Waltham railroad standard watches with the heavier/bolder style numerals over many years, though the parts numbers (and numbering system) changed over the years.

Some "railroad" dials (NOT "Rail Road")with less-bold numerals came with hands similar to the "Dirigo" (2662) shown to the left of the "Rail Road Spade" hands on p.19 of the 1909 catalog.

The style of hand shown by Marty101 eventually became the default style for later Waltham 16-size railroad dials, by then just the Vanguard, and other commercial grade watches, which usually had railroad-style dials. I don't know when the change took place; those hands do not appear in the 1936 materials catalog, and my next catalog is 1948, where they do appear. My best guess would be late 1930s or very early 1940s.

By then the Vanguard was Waltham's only railroad-approved grade, so if those late hands show up on earlier railroad grades, they would likely be replacements. Someone with a more complete run of catalogs or a good collection of Waltham brochures and advertisements will have to do some research to determine when they were first used.

However, I noticed that the old stand-by, the "Rail Road Spade" hands, continued to be offered in Waltham materials catalog right up to at least 1958, the last one I have. Whether they were actually available by then is another matter! That style, sometimes called "Spade and whip" (spade hour hand and whip minute hand) was a favorite for railroad watches.


Larry Treiman
 

onsite

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Interestingly enough, this just showed up in the mail, I was bidding on the dial and it turns out to be an 1883 C.P.R.

Silveroid case has no other case screw marks so I figure it the second case for this watch.

Serial # 7711597 (no number on the back of the Bbl bridge) dates it to 1896 and from the tone of the auction and the look of the watch this was no collector who was into making it it "right" to increase value.

She looks rode hard then rode hard again but it does run well.

From this one example I tentatively assume this dial and hands were available in 1896.

Does anyone have other examples to corroborate or an argument to refute?

DSCN3252.JPG DSCN3259.JPG
 

doug sinclair

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The 1883 C P R is likely stem set. Am I right? I see that very dial quite regularly on these C P R 1883s. But not all C P R 1883s had that dial. Two of us locally have three of these watches, but none with that dial.
 

onsite

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Doug, yes, you are correct about the stem set.

All I am trying to establish is when this particular dial, roman, arabic 24-hr or not, was first available.

I know it was made for 1892's as well as 1883's.

More assumptions but I assume those particular hands plus the proper second hand to have been created for that dial.
 
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Larry Treiman

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[EXCERPT] More assumptions but I assume those particular hands plus the proper second hand to have been created for that dial.
I haven't formally studied railway/railroad watch hands, but based on the 45+ years that I have been in this hobby, specializing in railway/railroad watches and observing, I think I can safely say that those hands have probably been around for a lot longer than the Waltham "Rail Road" dials. I wouldn't even be too surprised to find out that those classic hands were around overseas longer than the railways themselves, before they finally made their way over here.

Larry
 
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Marty101

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That is a very good point Larry,as much as some men might not like it!
I have seen some form of "spade/whip" on pre railroad watches from all over,and have wondered myself if an origin can be claimed.
Onsite,if I have any comment it's that I usually see the eye-catching "cross"type second hand with those Waltham hands you showed-like this: SAM_2752.JPG
 

onsite

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Yes Marty, that is the second hand I am referring to. mash-up hands.jpg

Larry, perhaps "meant to go together" would be a better choice of words than "created for that dial"

I have a similar mash-up photo of the 3 arabic dials but for some reason it won't upload.

Interesting that a dial with that much eye appeal is not often seen (NOS;), I'll be here all week) but perhaps it was not appreciated as much over 100 years ago.


As an aside, Marty, do you use 12000 grit paper to polish the hands before blueing?
 
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Marty101

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Onsite,the short answer is "No." But bluing hands is my specialty, and I can
talk about them for hours-if you have any interest I am at your service.

I have posted my experiences-failures & successes,tools,methods,tips,experiments,results and progress etc. with lots of pictures and
more over the last couple years. Please check out Global Horology and at least skim through my stuff-if you have any questions or need help I will be there.
Try the Forum "Repairs & Projects" on page 2. I will help anyway I can.
 

Bill Manders

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Onsite,
I have an 92 with that dial, and the same hands as yours has, including the second hand as yours, I was thinking of changing the second hand to the other type, until I saw a couple of other watches "92's" with the same dial and second hand. Now I think that that might have been the way these came, will never know for sure, so I will leave mine as is.
Bill
 

Marty101

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Just my 2 cents again guys,but from what I've seen the second hand is most often lost,replaced,and substituted. Then the minute hand.
 

Larry Treiman

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[EXCERPT]Interesting that a dial with that much eye appeal is not often seen..........but perhaps it was not appreciated as much over 100 years ago.

Maybe the eye appeal today is due to the fact that those "Rail Road" (I hate it when they make two words out of Railroad or railway!!) dials are simply different, due to the radial arrangement of the Arabic Numerals. The radial display has always been the usual arrangement for Roman numerals, and to me the limited number of Roman dials with upright numerals are the strange-looking ones!

Although the radial display of Arabic numerals might be somewhat more common than the upright display of Roman numerals, it never seemed to gain much acceptance on railroad dials. By the early 1900's, Roman Numerals on U.S. railroad watches were pretty much out of the picture, and combined with the apparent lack of acceptance for radial Arabic numerals, that pretty well explains the scarcity of the Waltham "Rail Road" dials.

Waltham sold watches for railway use in many countries. However, except for a limited number of countries that used North American railroad operating methods and rules, watch requirements in most of the rest of the world were not nearly as stringent as here, and watches elsewhere were not considered to be safety appliances as they were on North American railroads.

The typical railway watch in much of the world was an 18-size (or later, maybe 16-size), pendant-set, "adjusted" (probably to temperature only), and usually 15-jewel, but later perhaps 17-jewel. Many of those rather uncommon Waltham 18-size, 1892-model, 15-jewel movements that show up to tantalize us in the "Gray Book" or on data bases, went to railways overseas, and not many ever found their way back here! It is possible that some of those Waltham "Rail Road" (maybe the should have been called "Rail Way") dials went overseas with those, or on 1883-model movements.


Larry Treiman
 

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Marty I just did a binge read on your bluing thread, most interesting, kudos on all your efforts.

Larry, looking at the radial dial is like looking directly into someones eyes, that being a generally positive experience is why those dials appeal to me.

I used "RAIL ROAD" as that is how it was used in the Waltham Catalogue, forgive me for bringing it up but the Tu-Tone/Two-Tone/2Tone thing must rankle as well.
 

Larry Treiman

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[EXCERPT]I used "RAIL ROAD" as that is how it was used in the Waltham Catalogue, forgive me for bringing it up but the Tu-Tone/Two-Tone/2Tone thing must rankle as well.

Yeah, I was a little ticked off at Waltham (not you) because by using railroad as two words, they forced us to do likewise when referring to those dials and hands. Maybe they thought they could claim it as a trademark!?!? I never thought of looking at one of those dials to be like looking directly into someone's eyes. I just like them because they are different.<];>)

Of the "Tu-Tone/Two-Tone/2Tone" thing, only the "Tu-Tone" sort of bugs me because it is a "made-up" word. I used to work as an editor/proofreader, and my "Editor's Eye" rebels when it sees that sort of stuff. One bit of "lay terminology" that has been insidiously creeping into common usage is the use of "train station" for "railroad station".

When I hear someone say train station, I'm tempted to tell them that if they want to say that, then they should say "plane port" or even "plane station" when referring to an "airport". But I usually catch myself in time and figure that if they want to sound ignorant, let them say "train station". Alas, they usually don't have a clue!


Larry Treiman
 

Kent

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Maybe the eye appeal today is due to the fact that those "Rail Road" (I hate it when they make two words out of Railroad or railway!!) ...
Having grown up on Long Island, I'm long used to the use of the term "Rail Road" as in the name "Long Island Rail Road" (of which, it is claimed, is the oldest U.S. railroad still operating under its original name and charter). Apparently "Rail Road" is an earlier form of usage that got shortened to "Railroad".
 

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And if it is an AIRport, where do the airPLANES go? Shouldn't it be airplane and/or jet port? In WWII it was called an airfield. Having seen so much butchering of the language in the last 20 years it is a wonder that we can understand each other. The young'ns text messages take the cake.
 

Larry Treiman

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Having grown up on Long Island, I'm long used to the use of the term "Rail Road" as in the name "Long Island Rail Road" (of which, it is claimed, is the oldest U.S. railroad still operating under its original name and charter). Apparently "Rail Road" is an earlier form of usage that got shortened to "Railroad".

Kent, having never spent more than a couple days on LonGiland and getting no farther out than Flushing, while visiting the World's Fair (via the TA's 7 Line, IIRC), I'm still a little embarrassed that I forgot all about the LIRR's use of "Rail Road". Now that I consider the fact that their use of "Rail Road" enabled them to hang on to a bit of "tradition", it doesn't bother me. But that doesn't let Waltham off the hook!

Actually, that was my first visit to NYC, and I stayed with cousins in Fairlawn (Radburn), New Jersey. That allowed me to speak with some authority when arguing with those New Yorkers (always exhausting) who insisted that there was no west bank to the Hudson River! <];>)

Richiec, are you sure that we CAN still understand each other? As for railroad stations and airports and places like that, I'm not really too concerned about what to call them. Not too far in the future they'll probably all be called "multi-modal mass transportation interface facilities" or maybe something even worse! Then even "train station" might not seem so bad to me!

Larry
 
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Paul Sullivan

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And if it is an AIRport, where do the airPLANES go? Shouldn't it be airplane and/or jet port? In WWII it was called an airfield. Having seen so much butchering of the language in the last 20 years it is a wonder that we can understand each other. The young'ns text messages take the cake.
Well there is Portland International Jetport. Air planes or jets can go to an Airport, Airfield, or landing strip (depending on the size). WWII airfields were just that, fields (in the UK) or crushed stone and steel matting in the Pacific, even in Tinian, where the B-29s, were stationed was primitive. The word "port" is key as it denotes commercial activity and supporting infrastructure. Ships can into ports or harbors, but while a harbor can be a port a port is not always a harbor. Harbor indicates a place of refuge contiguous to the coast that may have nothing but shelter from a storm, whereas a port has all the supporting facilities for commerce and may be many miles inland on a river. Many ports are located on coasts with no shelter at all. Nowadays whether you're in a harbor or port the Coast Guard usually requires all ships in U.S. ports to vacate and ride out storms and hurricanes at sea.
 

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A couple of notes regarding this thread:

I have a book, Canadian National's Western Depots by Charles Bohi published in 1977

I also have, Canadian National's Western Stations by Charles W. Bohi and Leslie S. Kozma published in 2002

In the preface of the second book is this note:

WHAT'S IN A NAME?
When the authors and publishers were first thinking about the title of this book, it was helpful to consider how customs and nomenclature differ on each side of the Canada/U.S.A. border. What's known as a "railway in Canada is almost universally referred to as a "railroad" in U.S.A. In Canada folks would almost universally say " I'm going down to the station to meet Mom", while the "railroad depot" was where our American friends said they would be meeting Mom. In addition, since this new book is a companion book to it's predecessor, not a replacement, it became clear that we needed a title that would differentiate it while keeping close ties with the original. That's why Canadian National's Western Stations was ultimately chosen as the new book's title.


And another thing, I read in an 1886 edition of the Trader & Canadian Jeweler that during that year Waltham published a Catalogue of Waltham Watch Material, sure would be nice to find one of those.
 

Buchaneer

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Waltham 18 size, 17 jewel, Grade CPR, Model 1883, Serial No. 5742981, made 1892. Dial: Single sunk, 24 hour Railroader dial, Arabic numbers 1 to 12 marked radially, 24-hour tract, horizontal, signature "Waltham" heavy spade hands. Case: Silverode, openface, swing ring, inscribed "Patented Trade Mark (with star and crescent moon.) In back Maker: Crescent Watch Case Company, Brooklyn, New York.

Waltham 1883 CPR dial AJC.jpg Waltham 1883 CPR movement AJC.jpg
 

Buchaneer

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This Waltham pocket watch was owned by Alexander J Cameron census information from 1901 in Winnipeg, Manitoba shows that he was born January 12, 1868 in Ontario, age 33, of Scottish descent, at that time he was employed by the CPR as a brakeman. In the 1911, Winnipeg census he was 43 and still employed with the CPR, but shows that he is an engineer, which is probably a mistake, as at that time he would've been a conductor. In the 1916, Alberta census he is 48 years old and living near Fort MacLeod, Alberta, listed as a farmer, married to Mary with a son Alan, and daughter Mabel age 19 and 17 both were born in Winnipeg. A newspaper clipping from the Calgary Herald, March 7, 1952 shows Alex Cameron a pensioner aged 85 of 531 13th Ave SE, was critically injured when knocked down by a car at the intersection of 12th Avenue and 5th Avenue SE and was winter conditions, and Cameron was crossing from the south to the north of the intersection when the vehicle struck him, the driver testified that Cameron appeared to be standing in the middle of the road waiting for him to pass, but slipped on the icy roads and fell into the path of his car and was struck by the right front fender. Alex Cameron passed away in the General Hospital a few days later.
 

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A photo of Alexander Cameron taken by a city street photographer in downtown Calgary, Alberta, in front of McCullough's Silk Shop at 114A 7th Avenue SW, circa 1950, he is wearing his pocket watch with watch and fob, I bought this pocket watch from his granddaughter Helen Keeler, who went to school with a locomotive engineer I worked with at the CPR Walter Kot. Walter told me about it, at the time when I went to Helen's house to look at the pocket watch, it had not been touched since the accident, the crystal was broken and it needed a balance staff, we made a deal and I bought the pocket watch from her along with some other artifacts, including:

Alex J Cameron pensioner Calgary 1950.jpg
 

Buchaneer

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CPR Form 94 Employees Watch Rating Record for AJ Cameron, Occupation, Conductor, Maker of Movement: Wal (Waltham), 5742981, Grade: 17J CPR, Case: OF Nic (Openface, Nickel) Date Last Cleaned: September 19, 1902. Name and Address of Cleaner: stamped DR DINGWALL LTD with Inspector: DRD's initials, Address Winnipeg this pocket watch is pendant set, and is proof that pendant set pocket watches were approved by the CPR in 1902.

Waltham 1883 CPR watch inspection card AJC.jpg Waltham CPR Watch Record Card reverse side.jpg
 

Paul Sullivan

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The etymology of "railroad" does indicate that "railway" was used in the UK and Canada, being a possession (in earlier times) used "railway" also .

crts.JPG
 

Ron DeGenaro

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In Illinois and Indiana:

Elgin, Joliet and Eastern Railway

Waukegan & Southwestern Railway

Chicago, Lake Shore & Eastern Railway
 

Buchaneer

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Photo of Alexander J Cameron with what looks like a prize-winning bull, possibly taken at the Calgary Stampede and Exhibition Show in the 1920s, Alec is wearing his pocket watch with chain and fob.

AJ Cameron with prize-winning bull.jpg
 

Buchaneer

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Canadian Pacific Railway Company, Train Order No. 24 from Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan dispatching office, dated September 15, 1899, instructing Conductor Cameron on train No. 353 to run special from Broadview, Saskatchewan Mile 130 to Brandon, Manitoba Mile 1. cross up (pass?) Conductor Dawson on No. 357 special at Burrows, Saskatchewan, 21 miles east at mile 110 and to hold at Fleming at Mile 77 and look out for stock special, allowing and allow to pass, when overtaken, train orders signed by Cameron on the bottom to acknowledge receipt of same.

These train orders were nicknamed "flimsy's" because of the onion skin thin paper, they were typed or transcribed on by the telegraphers.

AJ Cameron CPR train order 1889.jpg
 

Buchaneer

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Canadian Pacific Railway Company Form 1572. No. 1630, Winnipeg September 6, 1899, stating "The following named employee was examined as to his knowledge of the construction and operation of the (a) Westinghouse Automatic Air Brake" A Cameron, Occupation: Brakeman, General Average Proficiency: 5 Good

AJ Cameron CPR air brake qualification 1899.jpg
 

Buchaneer

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Booklet "Rates of Pay And Rules Governing Conditions of Conductors, Baggage, Brakemen, and Yardmen. Central and Western Divisions Canadian Pacific Railway. Effective August 1, 1903. Passenger Conductors were allowed to make 5800 miles per month and were paid a salary of $125 in 2015, currency $3780 per year Passenger Baggage were paid 58% of Conductors, wages that paid them $1959 a year. Passenger Trainman were paid 53% of Conductors, wages that worked out to $1790 a year.

Through Freight and Wayfreight Conductors were paid $3.45 and $3.80 per hundred miles and were allowed to make 2800 miles a month. This worked out to $1159 for Through Freight Conductors and $1276 for Wayfreight Conductors in a year. Through Freight And Wayfreight Brakeman were paid $2.35 and $2.60 per hundred miles and had the same mile limitation per month as Conductors, so Brakemen in through freight service made $789 a year and on Wayfreights $873 a year.

AJ Cameron CPR rates of pay book 1903.jpg AJ Cameron CPR Rates of Pay Passenger Page-7.jpg AJ Cameron CPR Rates of Pay Freight Page-8 Rules Page-9.jpg AJ Cameron CPR Rates of Pay & Rules August 1, 1903.jpg
 

Buchaneer

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Canadian Pacific Railway Company Form 1572. No. 1630, Winnipeg September 6, 1899, stating "The following named employee was examined as to his knowledge of the construction and operation of the (a) Westinghouse Automatic Air Brake" A Cameron, Occupation: Brakeman, General Average Proficiency: 5 Good

226266.jpg
 

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