Waltham Private Label Watches

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Dave Coatsworth, Jan 23, 2018.

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  1. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    Please post your Waltham private label watches in this thread. When posting, please include photos whenever possible (obeying copyright law, of course). For the description, please provide the serial number, model and grade information, and any information you have obtained about the retailer who's name appears on the watch. The more information, the better. We would like to make this more than just a list. It will, hopefully, become a prime resource for private label research. Thanks in advance to all who contribute!

    Note that there are a couple of specialty Waltham threads in existence which can also be used, if appropriate:
    https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/1883-model-waltham-freaks-private-labels.25/
    https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/waltham-mod-57-private-labels.104523/
     
  2. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    #2 Dave Coatsworth, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
    4323651 - 'Bailey, Banks & Biddle, Philadelphia'. 14 size, model 1884, Hillside grade, 15 jewel, non-magnetic movement.

    Waltham4323651Case.jpg Waltham4323651Mvmt.jpg Waltham4323651Dial.jpg

    On September 20, 1832, Joseph Trowbridge Bailey and Andrew B. Kitchen entered into a partnership to form the Bailey & Kitchen Jewelry Company at 136 Chestnut Street in Philadelphia. This firm was dissolved in 1846 and a new partnership was formed under the name of Bailey and Company by Eli Westcott Bailey, Jeremiah Robbins and James Gallagher. The company moved to 819 Chestnut Street in 1859 and then to Chestnut and Twelfth in 1869. A third partnership was formed on March 1, 1878 by Joseph Trowbridge Bailey II, George Banks (of J. E. Caldwell) and Samuel Biddle (of Robbins, Clark & Biddle). The name of this new partnership was the name we know today – Bailey, Banks, and Biddle. The firm went public on March 2, 1894, adding a ‘Co.’ to the name. In 1904 they moved to a new showroom and eight floor factory at 1218-20-22 Chestnut Street.

    The firm is notable for producing the current design of the Great Seal of the United States in 1904, as well as several military medals, including the Purple Heart and the Medal of Honor. They also designed class rings for West Point and Annapolis.

    After expanding to over 100 stores in 31 states, Bailey, Banks and Biddle was acquired by Zale Corporation in 1961 and then by Finlay Enterprises in 2007. Finlay entered bankruptcy in 2009 and liquidated the remaining 67 Bailey, Banks and Biddle stores. In 2010, Bailey, Banks and Biddle reemerged as a private company, under the management of Smyth Jewelers, with nine stores and an online presence.
     
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  3. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Bailey, Banks & Biddle ordered some very nice movements from Waltham. This one is their best 8-size movement (1873 model).
    1157804m.jpg
     
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  4. Bill Manders

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    PLB 16825322 004.jpg PLB 16825322 005.jpg Dave,
    The only Private Label I have is a 0 size PSBartlet with the name of Chamberlin Jewelers from New Westminster BC on the dial only. I have been unable to find much information on this company, but know he was in operation in at least 1902 on the corner of Columbia and McKenzie streets there. The serial number of this watch is 16825322.
    Bill
     
  5. rolandantrobus

    rolandantrobus Registered User

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    #5 rolandantrobus, Jan 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
    OK, here's a couple of mine. I have several PLs ie: watches with the dial signed for the retailer but to me any retailer could have their name put on the dial. I am therefore only including ones were the movement is signed as well. These are a Preston Junior and a Preston Senior. These were commissioned 100 years ago by Preston's of Bolton UK. They went bust in 2016 but had been in existence for 150 years. People in the UK may remember the tagline "The Diamond Centre of the North" in the adverts.
    1.jpg
    They used to run a timeball up that post at 1 o'clock every day so you could check your watch!

    The Preston Junior is a model 1908 15 jewel, size 16s, adjusted, two tone with fishscale damaskeening to the bottom plate. The grade is 621 of which only 250 were made in open face. The ser num is 22324027.
    $_32 (1).jpg $_32.jpg
    The second is the Preston Senior, also model 1908 but 17 jewels, size 16s and to the spec of a P S Bartlett but with the addition of a double roller. The grade is 641 of which only 150 were made in open face. The ser num is 22323410.
    s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600 (6).jpg

    I hope this is useful to researchers in the future.
     
  6. MLH

    MLH Registered User

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    My contribution to private label watches is a signed dial & movement ( Louis H. Jerger - Thomasville Ga. ) 21 jewel, Waltham model 1892. The grade is Special with a run quantity of 100 between Louis H Jerger and The American Leader Gamse, New York company. The estimated production year is 1896 and the movement serial number is 7902754. All this information came from the Pocket Watch Database but as I researched the Jerger name I found a lot of history. Jerger Jewelers was started by Joseph Jerger who immigrated to Thomasville Ga. from Baden, Germany ( where he was a jeweler ) in 1856. He lived with his brother ( Louis ) who had moved to Thomasville Ga. years earlier and was a tailor. He opened his jewelery store in 1857 and was drafted by the Confederate Army 6 years later. He was wounded and captured during the battle of Atlanta and spent the rest of the war in a prison camp near Chicago. Joseph returned to Thomasville and resumed business in1885. Jerger went bankrupt in 1897 but his son ( Louis H Jerger ) acquired the business at a sheriffs auction, allowing for a smooth transition and continuous service. Louis managed the store after his father's death in 1936, and Louis's son, Joseph Jr. took over in 1971. Jerger Jewelers is currently operatedby the Faulk family of Thomasville. Jerger Jewelers is believed to be the oldest jewelry store in Georgia in continuous operation. There was a Joseph Jerger PL watch that sold on Ebay it was a 1886 Illinois, grade 3-S, model 2, 18s, 11 Jewel, serial number 575295. I would like any information about other Louis or Joseph Jerger watches. THANKS

    watch 1.jpg watch3.jpg watch11.jpg watch8.jpg watch12.jpg
     
  7. Nathan Moore

    Nathan Moore Registered User
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    #1263040
    Model 1874
    Size 14
    "Excelsior, No. 2"
    "Made at Waltham, Mass. for Howard & Co. Fifth Ave, N.Y."

    Howard & Co. is considered to be the first retailer to open on Fifth Avenue in New York City. Established by Joseph P. Howard in 1866, the successful company eventually opened branches in Newport and London. In 1873, Howard & Co. moved to the parlor floor at 222 Fifth Avenue, causing disgruntlement among the wealthy residential neighbors.

    Howard & Co. often advertised as having "the largest stock [of Waltham watches] in the country," touting 164 varieties. So it is of no surprise that we find several private labels attributed to them, usually marked "Excelsior" followed by a number. #1263040 is marked "Excelsior #2," and other grades are seen as "Excelsior #4" and "Excelsior #9," with movement quality directly correlating to the number.

    IMG_8490.jpg IMG_8475.jpg HowardAndCo-HarpersWeekely-June-14-1873.png HowardAndCo-HarpersWeekely-April-24-1875.png
     
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  8. Jerry Treiman

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    A large number of Waltham private-label movements fall into specific serial number blocks. Around 1907 Waltham apparently started setting aside blocks of serial numbers for special production pieces. Within these blocks of numbers, listed in "the Gray Book" as "Assorted Specials" or "Special Orders", one can find a wide array of sizes and grades for various customers. Trying to identify and compile the watch production in these orders has been one of my long-term research projects. I have posted some information on these interesting Walthams at the following web page and try to periodically update the information.
    http://ph.nawcc.org/waltham-research/JerryTreiman0506/Jerry-Treiman-June05.html
     
  9. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I just recently acquired this beautiful 19-jewel 12-size movement that was finished for Bigelow, Kennard & Co. It must have been fairly early in Waltham’s contract work for BK&Co because it is marked “PAT.PDG.” (patent pending) rather than “PATENTED” as subsequent movements are marked. The patent refers to the custom-ordered recoiling click, which patent was held by BK&Co. The movement serial number (7565265) would appear to greatly precede its actual production date of around 1904, so Waltham must have dipped into an older unfinished group of movements to make this movement for BK&Co.
    7565265_m.jpg

    The movement is from a small group of 100 Riverside-grade movements. What is particularly intriguing about this group of movements (7,565,201 - 7,565,300) is that it appears to include a range of very interesting private-label movements. There is not only my finely finished movement for BK&Co, but I have also seen an unusual 20-jewel “Ultimatum” (#7565210 recently sold at Heritage Auctions), #7565244 for Roddin & Co. in Chicago, and #7565289 for Black, Starr & Frost in New York. This variety suggests to me that this is another, unheralded, block of "assorted specials" as discussed in my previous post, although all appear to be based on the Riverside grade indicated in the Gray Book.

    I would love to hear about any other examples from this special block of serial numbers.
     
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  10. johnbscott

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    #10 johnbscott, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    I have the same numbered 4323603. The silky, silvery finish on the plates is something to behold. I have never seen anything to compare.

    I certainly appreciate seeing the comprehensive information posted by Dave Coatsworth.
     
  11. johnbscott

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    Waltham 14s 4323603 Bailey, Banks & Biddle, Philadelphia images.

    Walt 14s 4323603 dial AR.JPG Walt 14s 4323603 movt AR.JPG
     
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  12. Dave Coatsworth

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    626049 - Waltham model 1870 private label for Elijah Knight of Concord, New Hampshire. (Some info on Mr. Knight - New Hampshire Historical Society - Knight, Elijah (1813-1886)) The name engraved in the cartouche on the back is T. P. Clifford. A google search (thanks, Fred) shows him to be an Engineer on the Boston, Concord and Montreal road.

    Waltham626049Mvmt.jpg Waltham626049CaseBackCU.jpg Waltham626049CaseBack.jpg Waltham626049Dial.jpg
     
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  13. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    Here is a model 1888, 11 jewel for W E Cross of Amsterdam, NY, very distant relative.

    WE Cross watch July 2012 001.jpg WE Cross watch July 2012 003.jpg
     
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  14. 8x57mauser

    8x57mauser Registered User

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    This plain no frills grade 610 7 jewel 1908 Waltham hunter movement housed in a B&B 20 year gold filled case is nearly perfect with virtually no wear at all. Appears to be made about 1908. Whats interesting is that the private lable dial is for a shop just down the street from me, I work at 93 Salem Street in Boston. Research shows them operating from the 130 Salem address at least as early as 1900 and is still showing up at that address in Boston city records as late as 1956. This is the second from this jeweler I have seen the other is a 17 jewel adjusted P.S.Bartlett grade 1908 from 1911, hunter movement also but no case.

    Presently there is a Pizza/Sub shop at that address that I've eaten at every day for lunch not knowing the buildings history.

    20170720_083654.jpg 20170720_083730.jpg 20170720_083830.jpg 20170720_084218.jpg 20170720_084019.jpg 20170720_084149.jpg
     
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  15. johnnypocket

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    #15 johnnypocket, May 21, 2018
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
    Broke the ice and got my first private label watch. Its a 12s with the marking of Brenner on the dial. Researched showed they were a well regarded jeweler from Youngstown, Ohio. It is a solid watch with a nice case. The movement is a Waltham M#1894, 12s, 17j Riverside Colonial. It a real nice addition to my collection and starts me down the private label avenue. As we all know , you can't have enough PW's.
    brenner store.jpg brenner back.jpg brenner movement.jpg brenner 12j front.jpg brenner open.jpg
     
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  16. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    12599013 - Waltham Model 1894 Private Label for Bailey, Banks & Biddle., Philadelphia. 12 size

    IMG_3747.jpg IMG_6173.jpg

    Rob
     
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  17. Keith R...

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    #17 Keith R..., May 21, 2018
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
    Waltham Riverside model 88, 16 size, pendant set, 17J, Non-magnetic, for
    Fatt's & Son's Bradford. The case hallmark is Z for 1899 and the movement
    was produced in 1898. This is another of my Rob Carter serviced watches.

    I'd say most of my 16 size watches are English or Swiss. I'd also say most
    of my watches are key wind & key set, 18 size American or 16 size English.
    Another demonstration of my English leanings in watches.

    Keith R...

    103_8135 (800x600).jpg 103_8901 (1024x768).jpg 103_8907 (1024x768).jpg
     
  18. Bildeborg

    Bildeborg Registered User

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    I don't know if this qualifies as only the dial and case is marked as being a private label watch and not the movement. It is a Am. W. Co. grade model 1883 size 18 with serial number 5457188 which the database tells me it is a 11 jewelled watch though is in fact a 15 jewelled watch. Key wound and key set, it is a fabulous watch whose super shiny nickel movement looks as though it left the factory yesterday, the pictures don't do it justice.

    It is labelled 'Fattorini & Sons Bradford' (that is Bradford in Yorkshire). Fattorini & Sons were major silversmiths (they're still in business to this day) who specialised in sporting trophies. Indeed, they made the soccer F. A, Cup and the Rugby League Cup. The case is hallmarked 1897 at Birmingham and has the Fattorini mark. It is by the way an excellent timekeeper despite its age.

    Regards,

    Jay.

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 8.jpg
     
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  19. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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  20. Bildeborg

    Bildeborg Registered User

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    Hi Rob, thank you. I did actually stumble upon that thread the other day but posted to this one as it appears to be more current.

    Regards,

    Jay.
     
  21. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    This thread is a database of Waltham Private Label Watches. So your watch absolutely
    belongs in this thread. The other thread is more of a discussion about that particular Private Label.

    Regards,
    Rob
     
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  22. Stephen Matusek

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    I have a model 1877 that says Henry Dobbins, 6 Hanover St,. Boston, Mass. on the movement. Serial #1111239, 11j.

    Steve

    fullsizeoutput_857.jpeg
     
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  23. W.T. Owen

    W.T. Owen Registered User

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    Not trying to be a jerk and it's ok if you tell me the truth in your answer, but why do we need another thread started on Waltham private labels ? I would bet, if I had time to research, there are at least 3 other threads of WALTHAM private label already started.
     
  24. Bildeborg

    Bildeborg Registered User

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    With all due respect Mr. Owen, I would guess that perhaps the OP Dave is attempting to compile a list of such watches for purely altruistic purposes. Maybe to one day offer us all a compressed compilation of Waltham private label watches?

    I doubt he started the thread because he was twiddling his thumbs one afternoon and wondering how he might spend a few moments.

    Such posts as this have introduced me (and very likely others) to so much information regards the hobby that I otherwise might not have found and in my humble opinion should be lauded for what they reveal for others to see and learn from.

    Just my opinion........no hurt intended.

    Regards,

    Jay.
     
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  25. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    The other Waltham private label threads are model-specific. If you look at the Private Label sticky at the top of this forum, you will see all of the private label threads listed. The purpose of this thread is to cover all other models not covered by the model-specific threads.
     
  26. W.T. Owen

    W.T. Owen Registered User

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    Ok got it. It just took a little time and explanation. My thought process is still trying to catch up to speed after a medically induced coma. So please forgive if I come across a little out of bounds.
     
  27. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    Picked up a beautiful little 6-size Waltham model 1873-6 today. 11 jewels. Multi-color solid 14K Waltham case. Private label dial for Theodore A. Kohn & Sons of New York.

    Waltham4191418Dial.jpg Waltham4191418Mvmt.jpg Waltham4191418CaseBack.jpg Waltham4191418CaseFront.jpg
     
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  28. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Lovely! What brand/make is the case?
     
  29. Dave Coatsworth

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    It's a Waltham case.

    Waltham4191418InsideCase.jpg
     
  30. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Very nice Dave!

    Rob
     
  31. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    #31 Lee Passarella, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Here's a Waltham Riverside, circa 1900, 12s, 19j, serial number 7364230, marketed by Bailey, Banks & Biddle. There must have been a great number that went through BB&B's hands.

    It's housed in a snap-on case. Do you think the case is original? I tend to doubt it.

    View attachment 501761 IMG_0196.JPG IMG_0198.JPG
     
  32. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    I see no indication that the case housed a different movement at any time (but I'm no expert). Why do you think the case is not the original one?
     
  33. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    Gee, I don't know. I'm no expert either. It's just that I've never seen a case with that kind of Greek-influenced patterning before. I would expect something more patently Victorian in the way of design, given the age of the movement. This seems sort of neo-Classical, like something that you might see in the 20s or 30s.
     
  34. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    Have you opened the back, how about some pictures, any extra screw marks? Who made the case?
     
  35. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Nice watch Lee,
    I also posted a 19j Bailey, Banks & Biddle., Philadelphia. 12 size
    above in post #16 in this thread.


    Rob
     
  36. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    That is a lovely dial! Based on the serial number the movement was made between 1899 and 1902, and the dial fits with that era. The case is considerably later, probably from the 1920s (based on style). It is conceivable, but not likely, that the movement remained in stock that long. It is more likely that the original case wore out or was damaged or melted and replaced later with the case it has now.
     
  37. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    Yes, that's exactly what I think, Jerry. And you're right: it is a lovely dial, and I like those moon hands. It's a nice watch whatever the provenance of the case. And about that, my old fingers being what they are, I'm hesitant to open the back because the little pin that holds the case together is broken, and I've had a devil of a time putting the case back together. In fact, I've had to delegate that action, two times! So if I get up the gumption to open the case, I'll post pictures of the inside of the case and of the movement. But till then, I've enjoyed the comments I've received.
     
  38. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    Yes, I see the family resemblance right away. Thanks for alerting me to this.
     
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  39. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    Not to beat a dead horse (well, maybe I'm doing that), but I got the case open, and here are images of the inside of the case and the movement. As you see, the case is marked "Relion," no serial number. Maybe somebody knows about Relion cases. I'm assuming, as others have, that this case is much later than the watch itself, maybe from the 20s or 30s.

    IMG_0201.JPG IMG_0207.JPG
     
  40. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    #40 johnbscott, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Three Coventry Lever 16s Waltham dials.

    16s Walt Coventry Lever Dials R.jpeg
     
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  41. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    Coventry Lever Co Ltd dials - better resolution.

    16s Walt Coventry Lever Dials.jpeg
     
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  42. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Lovely dials. Do the movements have any special markings?
     
  43. johnbscott

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    #43 johnbscott, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Jerry, the top watch is all original, I would judge. It has a gilt 1888 model Riverside movement marked adjusted although not marked Non-magnetic. However, the movement does have the Waltham white-coloured non-magnetic hairspring. The serial number is 7639795. There is no special (PL) marking on the movement.

    The other two are 1899 model re-assemblies. The bottom LH watch has a 23J Riverside Maximus movement and the other has a 17J Riverside movement. There are no special (PL) markings on either of the two movements.

    I would like to know more about the Coventry Lever Co Ltd.
     
  44. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I would suggest posting your question and a few dial images in the European section of the board. One of our English members may know the answer.
     
  45. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
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    Thank you for the suggestion - I shall.
     
  46. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    987420 - 16 jewel, 14-size, model 1874 for Howard & Co. of New York.

    Waltham987420Mvmt.jpg
     
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  47. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Waltham’s Largest Contracts

    While reviewing some of my Waltham private-label research and data I started thinking about the quantity of watches they may have made for any individual client and for whom some of the larger orders may have been made. Certainly, as with other companies, a great many of these contract or private-label movements seem to have been small orders for various jewelers or jobbers. However, some of these stand out from the rest due to special features or the quantity and variety produced.

    Waltham’s largest contract was undoubtedly with Webb C. Ball, for whom they made tens of thousands of movements, including 16-size, 12-size, 0-size and 6/0. The next-largest contract that I know of was probably with E.Howard for whom they made nearly 3,500 movements in 16 and 12-size and in a few different grades. Many of these had custom plates or bridges.
    WH_16-12.jpg

    For the casemaker H.W. Matalene, Waltham produced almost 2,000 movements in six sizes and several different grades bearing Matalene’s “Patrician” label.
    Patsizes.jpg

    For the Boston jeweler Bigelow, Kennard & Co. they made almost 1200 custom movements in five sizes and several grades. These movements included a patented recoiling click and a whiplash regulator (except in 10-ligne).
    BKsizes.jpg

    Waltham may have made just as many specially marked movements for Tiffany & Co. (in at least six sizes and a few different grades), and they probably also made a notable number of movements for export by R.R. Fogel (in at least four sizes and a couple of different grades), but I have not made a detailed study of either of these. (shown below are two examples) Has anyone else studied these?
    Waltham PL.jpg

    What other large contract-watch orders are you aware of for Waltham? Have you tried to estimate quantities?
     
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  48. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    American watch co model 1870-14
    Sn 796106
    7 jewel crescent garden.

    Private label for Sexty Bros, Grantham
    Dial has no labeling
    American watch co Sterling case.

    I found Sexty Bros listed in "Kelly's directory of Lincolnshire 1885"
    Address being:
    37 High st & 1 Westgate, Grantham

    Grantham is located on the railway far north of London, and southeast of Manchester, as shown on map

    There are four brothers mentioned
    Charles is most prominent
    Alfred, Henry, and John.

    There's an 1868 obituary detailing Alfred's suicide by shooting and mentioning him being from the Sexy Bros firm, so it was in business at least from Dec 1868-1885 I haven't found anymore records yet to expand that range. If I do I will certainly edit it in.

    Have a good day!

    Screenshot_20190827-214225.png IMG_20190827_190156533.jpg IMG_20190827_190058506.jpg
     
  49. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    I have a pile of Fattorini & Sons waltham movements and dials heres a couple 6s and this Farringdon E Reg.d W.M.Ellery if they count.

    1567006228852853222887128648867.jpg 15670062656731810166071764603504.jpg
     
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  50. Bostonjoe

    Bostonjoe Registered User
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    I have two Waltham watches to contribute: a 18 size model KWKS 1857, SN: 471925. The movement is inscribed T.M. Lamb, Worcester Mass. This jeweler was in business from 1852 until 1881. The other is a six size SN: 6875024. The dial and movement are inscribed C.A. Crosley & Sons, Boston Mass. Both watches were serviced and are in good working order.

    8b1a8add0293d6383594eb009eb6e7ff.jpg 134d23a6c1b0f1709381df4096cef08e.JPG a0a6d2e028ab447c30c7043a3772c41a.JPG
     

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