Waltham models and dates

[Allan C. Purcell]

I don´t want to be a spoil-sport, I just take the easy way, I put everything I know about my watches on this board, and on the backup. This then brings me to my latest piece which arrived today from a shop in Germany. (No import duties) It´s an American Waltham, Appleton Tracy, Adjusted. Dueber-coin. with the anchor for 14k, I take that is for the gold hinges? KWKS. So I got out my old copy (2009) of that American Tomb on "Watches" by Eagle, Gilbert and Shugart, and on page 138 it says 1883 model hunting first serial number 2,354,001, but could not find one for 1882. I think that is what I have, my serial number being 2,230,240. It runs fine and in the four hours it has been ticking, I see no loss or gain, so a waistcoat watch.
So to end this, I like it, especially the case if there are more at that price about please let me know (298 GBP).

Best wishes,

Allan.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Allan, your watch is an 1877 model and has a very nice double sunk dial. Waltham made some nice watches in the models 1877 and 1879 which are really the same for all practical purposes. The 77 is either keywind or hunting case, while the 1879 is open face.

I do not think the anchor mark means anything in particular for your coin silver case.

This model was originally called the New Model because it was the first 18 size watch made after the 1857 model more than 20 years earlier.

When Waltham reabsorbed the Nashua Watch Co., they split the engineering and manufacturing into the 3/4 plate (Nashua) department and the Full Plate department. For the next 13 years, the Full Plate department got essentially no respect while all praise went to the 3/4 plate department.

The biggest slight to the Full Plate department was that the innovative 1870 full plate model was made by the 3/4 plate department.

Waltham eventually released Charles Vander Woerd to heal the manufacturing operations and brought in Fitch as President and Duane Church as Chief Designer and Superintendant. Church designed the 1883 model, the 1888 model and the automatic machinery driven by hydraulcs and pneumatics.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Tom, that is very good of you to write that up for me, though I have to ask a few questions if you don't mind? On my watch, someone scratched 1882 after the serial number, plus the serial number is lower than the 1883 model, or are the serial numbers in this book, not correct? I am now going to read up on Waltham pocket watches. I see Dennison was still there in 1882-1885 and getting ready to move to England. I have his bio. book by Priestley. I am in no way trying to make this watch more than it is, just the facts for its history.

Fond Regards,

Allan

PS; Just found this in the 1997 edition of "WATCHES" by the above.

 

[DeanT]

Tom, that is very good of you to write that up for me, though I have to ask a few questions if you don't mind? On my watch, someone scratched 1882 after the serial number, plus the serial number is lower than the 1883 model, or are the serial numbers in this book, not correct? I am now going to read up on Waltham pocket watches. I see Dennison was still there in 1882-1885 and getting ready to move to England. I have his bio. book by Priestley. I am in no way trying to make this watch more than it is, just the facts for its history.

Fond Regards,

Allan

I do believe it might be best to start another thread for the watch rather than hijacking the original posters questions.

Cheers

 

[Jerry Treiman]

I'm not sure what the "1882" date could refer to. According to the handwritten Waltham ledgers your movement is one of 500 that were completed or delivered (presumably to Waltham sales agents Robbins & Appleton) between February 1884 and January 1885.

The information in the ledgers has been transcribed and available for research here - http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Jerry, thank you for the thread, I would never have found it. I will now read the rest, and of course about the 500. wonder how it got to Germany.

Regards,

Allan.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

The nawccinfo site is intended as a research facility for watches in addition to provding the simple lookup and source references. The project ws launched at the turn of the 21st century when a group of volunteers transcribed the pages from the Waltham handwritten ledgers.

Jerry and I redid the application a few years ago using the original database.

In addition to the simple lookup you may search using Query By Forms and select records from the database with values that match your query expressions.

The results of the search are presented as a collection of runs with a table summarizing the results followed by a sometimes very long table of all runs and links to the more detailed information on each run.

The NAWCC Hamilton ledgers were intended to get the same treatment but we were not able to organize the full transcription of the Hamilton ledgers.Howard Lasser's analysis of runs for Hamilton was used to provide the basic run information (Lasser'sList.) The Elgin and Illinois records provide similar information and could be given the same treatment. Wayne Schlitt's application for the Elgin records was the original inspiration for the work and Russ Snyder's Illinois database is very similar.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Still working on this, though I found Robbins & Appleton made watch cases in Boston, but not sure they were still there in 1883. This, of course, does not help much, their trademark was R&A, and my watch has a Deuber case. So nothing really positive, What I can say is these watches are nice to have in good condition.

Allan.

Hi Tom. I wrote this while you were writing, so more to read, this watch is creating a good feeling.

Thanks again.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Waltham made silver cases in the factory. The Robbins & Appleton gold cases were made in New York and the silver ones were likely made in the Waltham Case department. Waltham also furnished movement blanks to all the case makers so they could produce cases to house the Waltham watches.

Waltham sold its case operation in the 1880's to make room for more watch production. Daniel O'Hara had been incharge of case making but left to take over the Waltham Dial Company probably with investments from Fitch and Robbins.

 

[Clint Geller]

Waltham made silver cases in the factory. The Robbins & Appleton gold cases were made in New York and the silver ones were likely made in the Waltham Case department. Waltham also furnished movement blanks to all the case makers so they could produce cases to house the Waltham watches.

Waltham sold its case operation in the 1880's to make room for more watch production. Daniel O'Hara had been in charge of case making but left to take over the Waltham Dial Company probably with investments from Fitch and Robbins.

Tom, just to be clear, did you mean that the silver cases marked R&A were made in the Waltham case dept., or only those silver cases marked AT&Co or American Watch Co.? Thanks.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I have not seen any documentation on signatures on cases from the case department in Waltham. The gold cases marked R&A and the successors were made in the New York facility which was in the Robbins & Appleton building along with Appleton Publishing Co. I think.

A deep dive into the newspapers of the time should provide more info on the New York operations. Since that was a separate company from Waltham, Robbins did not include that production in his annual Treasurer reports.

Robbins had a third venture Robbins & Avery that was in the business of acquiring patents in the industry. I do not know if they also owned design patents.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Just looking around at New York Advertisements.

Pocket Watch Database: Information and Serial Numbers for American Pocket Watches

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

Waltham Grade A.T. & Co. Watch #6551822 - 18s, 15j - Uploaded by BillyHellbender

Waltham Grade A.T. & Co. Watch #6551822 - 18s, 15j - Uploaded by BillyHellbender

pocketwatchdatabase.com

The Introduction of the Twenty-Four Hour Division Dial (The “Canadian Dial”) - Pocket Watch Database Blog

The adoption of standard time by the railroad industry in 1883 spurred a flurry of innovative ideas by individuals hoping to capitalize on the change. Many anticipated the natural progression of the change would soon prompt a general transition to the 24-hour method of time-telling. The United...

blog.pocketwatchdatabase.com

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT18750830.2.14.6

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT18750830.2.14.6

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BH18780507.2.3.2

Robbins & Appleton Price List: February 1, 1886 | PWDB Digital Archive (I like this one)

To be cont.......with questions.....

Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

So this is my watch. The first question is, were these 500 watches sent to Robbin's & Appleton as just movements. Then cased by Deuber?
I have plenty more, but I need an answer for the above before I move on.

Allan.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

My understanding is that the Waltham would probably have sent movements to R&A in smaller quantities, finished by the factory as needed to meet demand. I don't believe they would have sent the entire 500 at once. You will note in post #5 that this group of 500 were delivered over the course of almost a year. Higher-grade movements tended to sell more slowly and they would not have invested in the finishing until they were needed. Common lower-grade movements might have been finished and shipped in larger quantities.

R&A may have cased some movements to sell as complete watches but I believe more often they would have sold uncased movements to their customers (jobbers and perhaps some individual jewelers). I believe R&A also sold cases, which they would have ordered from whichever case manufacturers they were doing business with at the time. However, I believe most movements of this era did not join with their cases until point of sale at the retail jeweler. Case and movement were matched to meet the economic and aesthetic choices of the customer. The Hampden Watch Co. may have sold cased watches using cases from their Dueber Watch Case Co., but I don't believe Dueber was in the business of casing movements from other companies such as Waltham. The retail jeweler, however, may have had Dueber cases from which his customers could make their selection.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Jerry, that makes sense, though tracing my watch is almost impossible, I have at least learned quite a bit about how these watches were handled and sold. All I can say today is someone looked after this watch, and it was lucky enough to find someone who knew how to service it. Over these last three days, it has only lost a few seconds. I am now looking for another.

Thanks again,

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

but I don't believe Dueber was in the business of casing movements from other companies such as Waltham. The retail jeweler, however, may have had Dueber cases from which his customers could make their selection.

Jerry, Sorry about this but it seems Dueber cased watches for most of the Ameican watch companies at one time or the other. If you look at post 12,
second attachment, Waltham grades when opened, watch cases, then Dueber, then Dueber Coin Silver you will see plenty more. The more I look at these watches, the more I seem to run up against the politics of the period 1860-1900. That chap Robbins appears to have had all the leading players for partners at one time or the other, if I remember correctly he also fell out with Dennison.

I will keep at it, maybe one day I will have learned a little about American watches.

By the way, I was looking through my book collection and came across "History of the American Watch Case" a signed copy by Warren H. Niebling that I bought quite some time ago, it was published in 1971. It seems to have been a limited edition, this has the number 0133. In the book there were two postcards of PORSCHE automobiles, does that indicate anything about Mr Niebling.

Regards,

Allan

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Allan, the coupling of watches and cases was not at the hands of the case makers except in those instances where the watches were advertised as having been cased at the factory.

I do not believe that the Deuber Case Company which was adjacent to the Deuber Watch Co. in Canton Ohio cased watches from any other makers.

Some jobbers also sold cased watches with movements and cases from various sources and advertised them, but that was not the maker.

Waltham also had special relations with some case makers and made watches to incorporate elements of those vendors designs. Jerry has written extensively about Depollier and Matalene who did that and such watches are found in the UK for distributors there also.

Another example Cronometro Victoria labeled watch made by Waltham for Fogel to sell in the South American market. Waltham did this with several models and grades for Fogel.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Tom, I am not questioning the history of American watches, or anything, this is just about 2,290,246. When I find something about Dueber watch cases with Waltham watches in them, I feel it´s part of my search, and then I ask questions. For instance, I know nothing about "FOGEL" or probably 90% of the history of Waltham, they did though, have a lovely shop in Liverpool.

Dueber Coin Silver Pocket Watch Case by the Dueber Watch Case Mfg. Co. | Pocket Watch Database

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

So by now, it should be clear, I like Dueber coin silver cases, I did say in post 15 I would look for another and yesterday I bought a 4oz Dueber Coin Silver case with an Illinois watch movement. I am not of course sure, but from what I have read so far this is an 1877 model? I could though not find a diagram of this model in the Eagle, Gilbert & Shugart book.

I
I will know more when it arrives, about the middle of May-June. I have paid the duty , so it should arrive without two weeks in the customs here.


The Case.

I do think this photograph put people off buying. First impressions make it look like there is something wrong with the case.
It is just a reflection from the mat below.

Till later then,

Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Looking for Illinois Model 1 18s. I came across this on the net. I thought then my search was over. No way. My watch does not look like any of those below, only small points, but not the same.??

Illinois Watch Co. Size 18s Model 1 : Images| Pocket Watch Database

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

Allan.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Alan,what are your expectations of two watches being alike? Here is a better capture of the early Stuart image from Nathan Moore's Pocketwatch Database site. I will remove it if Nathan objects to its use, but I wanted to demonstrate that, if you right click on most online images you may show the image alone on a tab. If you use that image to copy and post here, you get the full resolution.

If you copy and post the thubnails from the slide show window, they are harder to see for someone with my limited eyesight.

The Stuart was the highest grade Illinois watch produced at the time it was made. Actually, in this instance it was also the only one, Ithink.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

Allan,
Your Illinois is definitely a model 1. The two key features that differentiate the model 1 are that it is keywind/keyset only and that there is only one case screw. Other features may vary. Most notably there were several grades of the model 1 produced. The grades varied in number of jewels, adjustments, and other cosmetic features.

Here are a couple of model 1 movements that are in original Dueber coin cases.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Tom, Dave, thank you very much for your added information, it is a great help. Looking at the watch movement of the one I bought, it appears to be one of their cheaper watches, it has no jewels you can see, (I will take a look when it arrives) the index scale is only engraved, so no screwed on index scale.
Though it is the case that interests me most, it is nice to know about the mechanics. Pity the new one is not a hunter case. So I am still looking about
for these coin silver cases.

These three will do for now.
From the left, the Dueber, middle Jas Boss, (14k rolled gold) on the right there is only warranted coin silver, probably Waltham. Tom that's the one with the Barraud inside, the case number is 3786.



Best wishes,

Allan

 

[Tom McIntyre]

If you are looking for big silver cases, it was the custom to put the weight in the marking on Amercan cases for a few years when heavy watches were popular. They always seemed like weapons to me. 2 1/2 ounces was the lightest and 6 ounces was an available heavy one. I have seen a few up to 12 ounces.

There was a Scandinavian collector about 30 years ago who was very eager to buy the very heavy ones. He single handedly drove the prices up about 30%. I have not kep track of that activity and I do not remember, if I ever knew, his name.

 

[jjimmerson417]

If you are looking for big silver cases, it was the custom to put the weight in the marking on Amercan cases for a few years when heavy watches were popular. They always seemed like weapons to me. 2 1/2 ounces was the lightest and 6 ounces was an available heavy one. I have seen a few up to 12 ounces.

There was a Scandinavian collector about 30 years ago who was very eager to buy the very heavy ones. He single handedly drove the prices up about 30%. I have not kep track of that activity and I do not remember, if I ever knew, his name.

12 ounces with a chain. Slap Jack or monkey fist at that point. Lol

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Tom the one on its way is a 4oz that's enough for me, if I had a 12oz I would need two, to keep my waistcoat even, in fact, that's not a bad idea.
two 4 oz and an "ALBERT"

Have a look at this Tom.

Antique Coin Silver Hunter Case "John C Dueber Special" Pocket Watch, Hampden

Circa 1891, stem wind and lever set, 17 jewels, movement #700105, the white dial with black enamel Roman numeral hour markers and outer minute ring, with blued steel moon hands and sunken subsidiary dial at the 6:00 hour, dial with gilt embellishments, housed in a floral and foliate engraved...

www.lelandlittle.com

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Could someone please give me some details of the "Home Watch Company" I believe they had something to do with Waltham?

Allan.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Waltham decided to produce a range of watches without their normal warranty to compete with Elgins similar lines. Those were makred Home Watch co Boston, I believe. As mentioned before the Waltham research database is at https://nawccinfo.nawcc.org.

You see the information below with another table showing all the runs and the source document links, if you enter %home% into the grade field in the search form.

Model	Grade	Size	Jewels	Style	Earliest	Latest	First	Last	Runs	Count
1857	Home		7	KW	10/1867	12/1867	324001	325000	1	1000
1857	Home		11	KW	12/1867	12/1867	325001	326000	1	1000
1857	Amer Home	18	7	KW	9/1874		800001	800050	4	44
1857	Home	18	7	KW	12/1866	6/1880	283001	1293000	161	76580
1857	Home	18	7	HC	5/1874	9/1877	749001	1006500	18	3200
1857	Home	18	11	KW	1/1867	3/1878	283401	1082000	67	47692
1857	Home	18	11	HC	6/1874	2/1877	749401	928000	4	1000
1857	Home	18	15	KW	11/1869	7/1871	447001	529000	2	2000
1862	Home	20	15	KW	1/1869	12/1871	300505	300750	1	246
1870-14	Home	14	7	KW	10/1890	1/1891	4509001	4510000	1	1000
1876	Home	14	7	KW	10/1876	9/1902	925001	7266000	172	153700
1876	Home	14	7	OF	4/1885	9/1885	2658001	2661000	1	3000
1876	Home	14	7	HC	2/1895	4/1896	6793001	6798000	1	5000
1876	Home	14	11	KW	8/1890	12/1890	4386001	4387000	1	1000
1877	Home	18	7	KW	9/1877	11/1887	1002401	3189000	168	92980
1877	Home	18	7	HC	5/1880	12/1886	1371001	3081000	20	5600
1877	Home	18	7	FS	12/1882	11/1883	1895701	2065500	4	400
1877	Home	18	7	OF	3/1885	9/1885	2636201	2636400	1	200
1877-Q	Home	14	7	KW	1/1880	1/1881	1291001	1422000	2	2000
1879	Home	18	7	OF	4/1882	12/1884	1783001	2529200	7	800
1883	Home	18	7	KW	7/1884	2/1893	2507001	5388000	56	91300
1883	Home	18	7	OF	6/1885	2/1893	2657901	5788000	9	3100
1883	Home	18	7	HC	10/1886	12/1892	3092501	5453000	3	800
1883	Home	18	11	KW	1/1890	5/1890	4241501	4242000	1	500
1884-Q	Home	18	7	OF	2/1890	5/1890	4264001	4264200	1	200
	25 Variants							Totals:	707	494342

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thanks again Tom, I will spend time on the database tonight, though it could be tomorrow.

Best wishes,

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I posted this because I think there are members who would like to see it. Interesting though it is, there are mistakes, see DUEBER for an example
Easy to print out, 14 pages if you have Duplex on your printer.

Allan.

Manufakturen, Uhrenfirmen - Uhrenpaul - Uhren Paul

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Well, it arrived today, and I am very pleased with this 189gr. timepiece. It is everything the seller said it would be if he reads this, thanks again.

I now know what Tom said about weapons, I think this one is bulletproof.













I think I have found the right chain too. 25 Victorian silver three pence pieces.





regards,

Allan.
.

 

[Old rookie]

Why would anyone want to shoot a nice watch like that?

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Allan C. Purcell .

I do have an example that is a little heavier than yours. It is in hunting case, so the front cover adds another ounce to the weight.

I first saw this watch in Florida around 1982. It was owned by Bob Bennett who collected many things Hamilton, but in particular.watches marked for railroad inspectors. Bob would not sell me the watch, but I was able to buy it from Jones & Horan in 2020 after Bob's death.

I have permission to use Jones & Horan's pictures (which are very good).

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thomas Mcintyre,

Now why would you want a watch like that, there has to be a story here?? A really nice case, and I see Keystone used their 14k mark for the hinges.

I am still looking at these watches, though finding one in good condition is not easy, but when found, they are pleasing to have.

I will let you know when I find one.

Best wishes,

Allan.