Waltham Model 1872 & 1888 PL Challenge - Are there any private labels out there?

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Nigel Harrison, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Everyone,

    I have been collecting some very nice Medium to Higher grade Model 1888 Waltham movements lately and when I see a private labelled (PL'd) 1888 movement pop up I pursue it pretty hard as I know they are not what I would call common in the Model 1888. (or for many other models of Walthams in saying that)

    I am keen to know if anyone has any Model 1872 Walthams that are private labelled on the movement as well. I have to say I don't think I have seen one and these models are keenly sought after. I have seen a few with PL'd dials but not PL'd movements.

    Does anyone have any Model 1872's and Model 1888's they would like to post pictures of? They would be great to see.

    Here is one Model 1888 I purchased recently for Benedict Brothers New York:
    Model 1888.JPG
     
  2. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,277
    125
    63
    Country Flag:
    Good topic and 72 model private label movements do exist but they are harder to find than 88 models.

    Here's a Canadian private label 72 model movement ...
    View attachment 416086
     
  3. mikeh

    mikeh Registered User

    Mar 5, 2001
    1,265
    4
    38
    Not much to say about this one except that it is so close Fred's.

    IMG_2214.JPG
     
  4. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,788
    1,292
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #4 Tom McIntyre, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    I have seen very few PL 1872 models. Perhaps only this one in American Watch Co. grade. It is not my watch, but I really like it.

    full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg
     
  5. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    They are some great posts of Model 1872 guys, very interesting to see and thanks for posting the pics. Yes agreed that 1872 models are much rarer than 1888 models in PL's.

    I do remember seeing that American Grade one now that you posted it Tom. It is sensational! It would have to be close to the best piece in an American Pocket Watch collection. Amazing damaskeening.
     
  6. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have finally started to take some photos of some of my more recent purchases. To add onto this thread, here is a JB Chambers Private label model 1888. This piece is not running and has a replacement balance cock and wheel, however in the lot I purchased this piece in I did find the original balance cock and it was loose, but no matching wheel. I saw another on eBay with the same private up for sale around 6 months after I purchased this one and from memory it was around 6 serial numbers away from this one. I have not seen any others. It has nice GJS.
    IMG_1465.jpg

    Here is one I have never seen before, a Model 88 labelled Beaumont. Very interesting and a bit of a speculator piece as I saw it at an auction house and could see it had extra wording on the movement but the picture was not large enough to make out the text, I could easily see the grade so I could bid accordingly. Picked it up for $90 in a very nice and original OF gold filled case with deep fancy edges with engine turned back. Dial is very nice with fancier numerals. Quite an early serial number for a model 1888 and has nice gold screws on the balance.
    IMG_1466.jpg IMG_1471.jpg
     
  7. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    3,056
    206
    63
    Chemist
    Kentucky
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    There is some debate about whether or not this is a PL, but I'll post it here anyway

    IMG_2906-1.jpg
     
  8. Tom Huber

    Tom Huber Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2000
    2,968
    116
    63
    Male
    Track & cross Country Coach
    Indiana PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have a partial (junk) model 88 HC, 17J, nickel movement--SN 7,724,119. On the train bridge is J. M. Kuhns, Sharpsburg, PA.

    Tom
     
  9. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Ben and Tom. Good to hear and see other examples.

    Ben I also have a Warwick I will have to post up on this thread, a bit different from most Warwick's I have seen though with a bit more text. I live not far too from Warwick.....in Queensland, Australia. I am sure not what they were referring to. :)
     
  10. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Also how good was this model 1872 American grade PL for E.A. Thrall at the recent Bonhams auction in NY. http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21971/lot/1220/

    An outstanding piece, after seeing the case and movement I honestly thought it would sell for double of what it actually sold for. Maybe the aftermarket dial was a turn off :???: Or maybe people do just want to see 'American Watch Co' text on the movement.

    Similar piece to Tom's one posted above, only 15 serial numbers apart! Interesting both PL's for New York.
     
  11. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,788
    1,292
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #11 Tom McIntyre, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
    My friend paid $6K for his example in 2009. I like the dial better on the Moir, but the case on the Thrall ads quite a bit of value.

    Moir was a man of substance. He owned a jewelry store and a substantial building that housed it which is now a hotel, I think.

    I don't know if the Thrall watch is related to the library of that name in Middletown NY.

    For dials, I have not seen a better private dial than my Herman S. Hewett

    dial.jpg
     
  12. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the info Tom. $6k for the Moir, well I think your friend is a lucky man...for a one of a kind AWCo grade model 1872. Since I have seen standard ones sell from 5k to around 10k on average.

    I agree that Hewitt dial is sensational. Just love the background on the large S to top off the 'highendness'....new word. :)
     
  13. Dutto11

    Dutto11 Registered User

    Jul 12, 2006
    729
    4
    18
    Designer, Engeering
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Nigel,
    How have you been? You still working in the city.

    I'll have to check my 1872 to see if it is a PL and let you know.

    Cheers
    Gary
     
  14. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Gary,

    Going very well. How are you and the collection going?

    I am currently back and forwards between QLD and WA at the moment. Yes please check your model 1872, hard to find a PL in them. There is a challenge for you :)
     
  15. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,277
    125
    63
    Country Flag:
    #15 Fred Hansen, Jan 8, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2018
    Headed South ...

    224767.jpg

    224768.jpg

    El Regulador Especial De Waltham
    Diener & Rothacker, Mexico. Waltham, Mass.
     
  16. richiec

    richiec Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,369
    302
    83
    Male
    automotive warranty inspector
    Brick, Ocean, NJ
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nigel, here is one I have had for a while that I bought due to his being a very distant relative.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Very Cool Richiec, Thanks for sharing it. It has some interesting damaskeening at the centre of it which is not common on a model 88, uncommon like the private label. :) Great super clean dial!
     
  18. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Super Cool 1872 Fred. Very unique.
     
  19. NorCal kid

    NorCal kid Registered User

    Oct 14, 2013
    111
    0
    0
    Tom - Any idea who painted the dial on that Herman Hewett m'88?
     
  20. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,788
    1,292
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My presumption is that it was done by the dial painters at Waltham. It could also have been done by the Waltham Dial Co. (later the O'Hara dial company). I have not actually looked at the back of the dial.
     
  21. NorCal kid

    NorCal kid Registered User

    Oct 14, 2013
    111
    0
    0
    Might be a good idea for whoever owns it. I'm curious, for one.
     
  22. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    3,056
    206
    63
    Chemist
    Kentucky
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here's my only PL '72. This one has already been posted once in this thread, but I like it enough that I'll repost :) IMG_0051.jpg IMG_0052.jpg
     
  23. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #23 Nigel Harrison, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
    Here are some more of my Private Label Waltham Model 1888's. They both have matching PL dials and both are from the same run of 500!
    IMG_9423.JPG IMG_9422.JPG IMG_9421.JPG IMG_9419.JPG

    Both look to be Riverside quality, The A.W.Gunnison one is cool as it is the very last one in the run with serial of 6564000 and the Waltham database comment on the run is also interesting:
    OF/ nickel / PS / Adj / nameless / covering several grades Riv 17j #28 15j

    The second one from Kasper and Barnes of Chicago has serial number 6563658.

    It looks like I have one of each in the run. 17J and 15J.

    Who has some others?
     
  24. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    In addition to my last post: Though the 15J Gunnison is slightly finished higher grade with solid gold balance screws and GJS. I have seen Riversides finished with both GJS and composite settings in normal Model 1888 terms so no surprise but.... Interesting that lower jewel and higher finish, makes you wonder was this run just made over many years when a PL was required or were the movement made to the spec of the customer?
     
  25. Phil Guest

    Phil Guest Registered User

    Feb 7, 2016
    7
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    Here is another Diener & Rothacker - Mexico 1872 PL model. This example is a Gold-Flash movement, and from the same lot as Fred's pic. The Waltham serial number book incorrectly lists this 200 lot as model '88. 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REGULADOR dial-hands.jpg 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REG d.jpg

    Regards, Phil
     
  26. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,307
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I did wonder who outbid me on that one...
     
  27. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    3,056
    206
    63
    Chemist
    Kentucky
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Very interesting. It's 100 SNs apart from mine(formerly Fred's) and looks to have the same pattern abeit with the gold flashing over it.

    I would lover to see more examples of these D&R watches photographed.

    I'd also love to see more WW variations that might exist on these watches.
     
  28. Phil Guest

    Phil Guest Registered User

    Feb 7, 2016
    7
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    Hi Nigel, Here is another 'Diener & Rothacker - MEXICO' PL '72 from the same lot as listed earlier. This one is gold-flashed 3.978.047
    This lot of 200 in the serial 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REG d.jpg 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REGULADOR dial-hands.jpg number grey book is incorrectly listed as 1888 model.
     
  29. Phil Guest

    Phil Guest Registered User

    Feb 7, 2016
    7
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    #29 Phil Guest, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
    Here's an 1888 PL: GOSS, HAVERHILL, MASS. This one is 6.563.964 17j SR listed as Riverside 'P' 6.563.964 '88 W.H.Goss PL 17j SR dial-hands 2.jpg 6.563.964 '88 W.H.Goss PL 17j SR mov't 2.jpg

    Phil
     

    Attached Files:

  30. Phil Guest

    Phil Guest Registered User

    Feb 7, 2016
    7
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    #30 Phil Guest, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
    This 1888 model PL S/no 7.067.353 is M F Kohler, Parsons, KAS. Listed as 15j Royal 'A', but is actually 17j DR.

    7.067.353 Kohler '88 PL mov't DR.jpg
     
  31. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,307
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just going back to the 1872 "El Regulador" movements (which are indeed incorrectly recorded as being 1888's) - what grade should we regard them as being?
     
  32. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    3,056
    206
    63
    Chemist
    Kentucky
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    IMO, they are similar in finish to an Am. Watch Co. grade, although I haven't checked for numbered pillars on mine.
     
  33. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,431
    1,811
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  34. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    SN 6,516,036 is listed as a Riverside 15J ...

    mvmt pic.jpg
     
  35. Phil Guest

    Phil Guest Registered User

    Feb 7, 2016
    7
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    Here's another Tennyson 6.495.061 to compare with Dave's (although I'm not certain whether these & Warwick were PL or factory grades). Strange they would label them differently too when the numbers suggest they were produced only months apart?

    6.495.061 '88 17j OF Tennyson mov't.jpg

    Rgds, Phil
     
  36. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Phil, the differences in finish between the Tennyson's is interesting, but I gather from the online lookup records that these two Tennyson's were finished at least a year apart.
     
  37. Phil Guest

    Phil Guest Registered User

    Feb 7, 2016
    7
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    Hi Dave, I considered a year apart as being close. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I was trying to justify PL or factory grade. Puzzled as to why yours does not have American Waltham Watch Co., or Waltham, MASS etc? i.e. If it were a Private Label designation, at some cost, I would expect the owner to advertise his name and/or address too.
     
  38. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Hi Phil, I have no specific info on whether or not these were made as PL's, but I do know that the highly regarded poet Lord Alfred Tennyson died in late 1892, and his "Complete Works" were published in 1894, which parallel the dates on these watches. So lacking any other info I'd speculate that they may have been Waltham made memorials to the beloved poet - but I have no real proof either way. And as far as the addresses, etc., I've seen PL's done every which way, with and without.
     
  39. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

    Jul 21, 2009
    455
    250
    63
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    I have an 1888 Model, Amn W Co. Grade hunter movement circa 1896 that was imported by Schierwater & Lloyd of Liverpool, but only marked to the dial. They had their Waltham imports cased by Dennisons and this one is in a very early gold filled case, S/N 785 which dates to about 1897/8. They made over a million G/F cases.
    DSCF0138.JPG DSCF0139.JPG DSCF0137.JPG
     
  40. richiec

    richiec Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,369
    302
    83
    Male
    automotive warranty inspector
    Brick, Ocean, NJ
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is a Chronometro Victoria, 15 jewel in a Victoria marked 14k gold filled case, the back of the case is completely worn through though.
     

    Attached Files:

  41. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,431
    1,811
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    ^^Nick, is there an ALD in a square inside the case lid? I notice a few contract Dennison cases with
    no indicator of ALD, if stamped AB for Alfred Bedford. Keith
     
  42. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

    Jul 21, 2009
    455
    250
    63
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Keith, Yes it has the Dennison ALD Trade Mark on the inside of the rear cover. I don't think that any of the Dennison gold filled cases are marked with AB for Alfred Bedford. His sponser mark only seems to appear on gold and silver cases between 1876 and 1906.
    It wasn't until after the death of Aaron Lufkin Dennison in 1895*that his ALD mark was used on cases containing Waltham movements, so there is an overlap of ten years(1896-1906) when either an AB mark or ALD mark can be found on silver cases used for Waltham movements.

    * Although it has been recorded that the ALD mark could not be used on Dennison cases containing Waltham movements until after the death of Dennison, and none have been seen covering the period 1878 to 1894, one or two very early ALD cased Walthams have surfaced. I have an 1857 Model, Martin Square S/N 947898 in silver case S/N. 4, hallmarked for Birmingham 1876 with the ALD mark.

    Nick
     
  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,431
    1,811
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nick, I had this issue in my notes. Thanks so much for responding. I can revise my notes kind sir.

    Keith
     
  44. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,723
    503
    113
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #44 pmwas, Feb 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Funny, I've checked out this thread a few times before and only now I remembered the only model 88 I have so far is a private label ;)

    xyzzytom_234177

    xyzzytom_234178

    That's Geo.H.Wood Lowell, Mass., ordinary Riverside grade...
     
  45. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    They are some great pieces, thanks very much for sharing them all!!!!
     
  46. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,277
    125
    63
    Country Flag:
    Re: Waltham Model 1872 & 1888 PL Challenge - Are there any private labels out there?

    121.jpg 123.jpg

    4069925 - J.H. Johnston & Co., New York (signed dial and mvt)

    - - - Updated - - -

    131.jpg

    3574479 - Geo. H. Richards Jr & Co., Boston Mass, Non-Magnetic (signed mvt)
     
  47. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Waltham Model 1872 & 1888 PL Challenge - Are there any private labels out there?

    Great pieces Fred, thanks for posting. Love the nickel Damaskeening there on the earlier one, that pattern is not common on a model 1888. I note on your nickel one also that only a very few early model 1888 pieces have the serial number wrapped around the winding wheel in that that higher barrel bridge position. Usually I only see these on model 1888 pieces starting with a 3 mill serial which not many we're made in that earlier range..though I do note also that the very very early first run pieces the serial is in the normal lower location...just an interesting observation that the location was moved twice and back to original location in the end...unless of course the finisher at the factory in a few runs though that was a good location for it while they were working on them. :)

    Also of interest, I have a nickel Riverside marked grade only 20 serials exactly away from your nickel one and it is not PL and it was exported to the UK also as it is in a GF crystal case with slightly different style of dial than you would expect in the US, it is non mag though like yours...these two ended up with a very different life to each other even though only 20 apart.
     
  48. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,788
    1,292
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am posting in this fairly old thread to call @Dave Coatsworth 's attention to it, I have also been working on cleaning up some of the pictures that got mishandled in the move to this new site. In several cases, the pictures are in the Media area of the Message Board but only appear as references in the threads. I will try to make sure the thumbnails appear both places.
     
  49. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
    NAWCC Business Sponsor

    Feb 11, 2005
    6,155
    1,086
    113
    Camarillo, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thank you, Tom. I had forgotten about this one.
     
  50. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

    Oct 30, 2005
    771
    96
    28
    Male
    Brisbane, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is one that went through ebay this week. Just amazing!

    Another PL Model 1872 from Mexico with movement marked El Regulador Especial De Waltham

    Though this one has gold plated nickel damaskeening!

    Also the 14k hunter case is absolutely outstanding with both hunter case lids primarily covered in enamel with flowers and 99% in tact. The scalloped edge on the case very nice as well. A premium quality case and unique for a large mens size watch to have that enamelling as normally only seen like this on ladies watches.

    The price I think was a bargain also at US$1305. That would be at about gold value or less at my rough estimate.

    Link Rare 14k Gold Chronograph Frosted Plates Heavy Antique Waltham Pocket Watch 50393000088 | eBay - You will have to click on the original 'listing' link at the top of the page to see it as ebay now redirects you to other pieces for listings that have ended.
     

Share This Page