Waltham Model 1872 & 1888 PL Challenge - Are there any private labels out there?

Nigel Harrison

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Hi Everyone,

I have been collecting some very nice Medium to Higher grade Model 1888 Waltham movements lately and when I see a private labelled (PL'd) 1888 movement pop up I pursue it pretty hard as I know they are not what I would call common in the Model 1888. (or for many other models of Walthams in saying that)

I am keen to know if anyone has any Model 1872 Walthams that are private labelled on the movement as well. I have to say I don't think I have seen one and these models are keenly sought after. I have seen a few with PL'd dials but not PL'd movements.

Does anyone have any Model 1872's and Model 1888's they would like to post pictures of? They would be great to see.

Here is one Model 1888 I purchased recently for Benedict Brothers New York:
Model 1888.JPG
 

Fred Hansen

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Good topic and 72 model private label movements do exist but they are harder to find than 88 models.

Here's a Canadian private label 72 model movement ...
View attachment 416086
 
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Tom McIntyre

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I have seen very few PL 1872 models. Perhaps only this one in American Watch Co. grade. It is not my watch, but I really like it.

full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg
 
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Nigel Harrison

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They are some great posts of Model 1872 guys, very interesting to see and thanks for posting the pics. Yes agreed that 1872 models are much rarer than 1888 models in PL's.

I do remember seeing that American Grade one now that you posted it Tom. It is sensational! It would have to be close to the best piece in an American Pocket Watch collection. Amazing damaskeening.
 

Nigel Harrison

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I have finally started to take some photos of some of my more recent purchases. To add onto this thread, here is a JB Chambers Private label model 1888. This piece is not running and has a replacement balance cock and wheel, however in the lot I purchased this piece in I did find the original balance cock and it was loose, but no matching wheel. I saw another on eBay with the same private up for sale around 6 months after I purchased this one and from memory it was around 6 serial numbers away from this one. I have not seen any others. It has nice GJS.
IMG_1465.jpg

Here is one I have never seen before, a Model 88 labelled Beaumont. Very interesting and a bit of a speculator piece as I saw it at an auction house and could see it had extra wording on the movement but the picture was not large enough to make out the text, I could easily see the grade so I could bid accordingly. Picked it up for $90 in a very nice and original OF gold filled case with deep fancy edges with engine turned back. Dial is very nice with fancier numerals. Quite an early serial number for a model 1888 and has nice gold screws on the balance.
IMG_1466.jpg IMG_1471.jpg

IMG_1465.jpg IMG_1466.jpg IMG_1471.jpg
 
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ben_hutcherson

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There is some debate about whether or not this is a PL, but I'll post it here anyway

IMG_2906-1.jpg
 

Tom Huber

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I have a partial (junk) model 88 HC, 17J, nickel movement--SN 7,724,119. On the train bridge is J. M. Kuhns, Sharpsburg, PA.

Tom
 

Nigel Harrison

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Thanks Ben and Tom. Good to hear and see other examples.

Ben I also have a Warwick I will have to post up on this thread, a bit different from most Warwick's I have seen though with a bit more text. I live not far too from Warwick.....in Queensland, Australia. I am sure not what they were referring to. :)
 

Nigel Harrison

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Also how good was this model 1872 American grade PL for E.A. Thrall at the recent Bonhams auction in NY. http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21971/lot/1220/

An outstanding piece, after seeing the case and movement I honestly thought it would sell for double of what it actually sold for. Maybe the aftermarket dial was a turn off :???: Or maybe people do just want to see 'American Watch Co' text on the movement.

Similar piece to Tom's one posted above, only 15 serial numbers apart! Interesting both PL's for New York.
 

Tom McIntyre

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My friend paid $6K for his example in 2009. I like the dial better on the Moir, but the case on the Thrall ads quite a bit of value.

Moir was a man of substance. He owned a jewelry store and a substantial building that housed it which is now a hotel, I think.

I don't know if the Thrall watch is related to the library of that name in Middletown NY.

For dials, I have not seen a better private dial than my Herman S. Hewett

dial.jpg

dial.jpg
 
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Nigel Harrison

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Thanks for the info Tom. $6k for the Moir, well I think your friend is a lucky man...for a one of a kind AWCo grade model 1872. Since I have seen standard ones sell from 5k to around 10k on average.

I agree that Hewitt dial is sensational. Just love the background on the large S to top off the 'highendness'....new word. :)
 

Dutto11

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Hi Nigel,
How have you been? You still working in the city.

I'll have to check my 1872 to see if it is a PL and let you know.

Cheers
Gary
 

Nigel Harrison

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Hi Gary,

Going very well. How are you and the collection going?

I am currently back and forwards between QLD and WA at the moment. Yes please check your model 1872, hard to find a PL in them. There is a challenge for you :)
 

Fred Hansen

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Headed South ...

224767.jpg

224768.jpg

El Regulador Especial De Waltham
Diener & Rothacker, Mexico. Waltham, Mass.
 
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Nigel Harrison

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Very Cool Richiec, Thanks for sharing it. It has some interesting damaskeening at the centre of it which is not common on a model 88, uncommon like the private label. :) Great super clean dial!
 

Tom McIntyre

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My presumption is that it was done by the dial painters at Waltham. It could also have been done by the Waltham Dial Co. (later the O'Hara dial company). I have not actually looked at the back of the dial.
 

Nigel Harrison

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Here are some more of my Private Label Waltham Model 1888's. They both have matching PL dials and both are from the same run of 500!
IMG_9423.JPG IMG_9422.JPG IMG_9421.JPG IMG_9419.JPG

Both look to be Riverside quality, The A.W.Gunnison one is cool as it is the very last one in the run with serial of 6564000 and the Waltham database comment on the run is also interesting:
OF/ nickel / PS / Adj / nameless / covering several grades Riv 17j #28 15j

The second one from Kasper and Barnes of Chicago has serial number 6563658.

It looks like I have one of each in the run. 17J and 15J.

Who has some others?

IMG_9419.JPG IMG_9421.JPG IMG_9422.JPG IMG_9423.JPG
 
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Nigel Harrison

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In addition to my last post: Though the 15J Gunnison is slightly finished higher grade with solid gold balance screws and GJS. I have seen Riversides finished with both GJS and composite settings in normal Model 1888 terms so no surprise but.... Interesting that lower jewel and higher finish, makes you wonder was this run just made over many years when a PL was required or were the movement made to the spec of the customer?
 

Phil Guest

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Here is another Diener & Rothacker - Mexico 1872 PL model. This example is a Gold-Flash movement, and from the same lot as Fred's pic. The Waltham serial number book incorrectly lists this 200 lot as model '88. 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REGULADOR dial-hands.jpg 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REG d.jpg

Regards, Phil

3.978.047 '72 htg EL REGULADOR dial-hands.jpg 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REG d.jpg
 
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ben_hutcherson

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Very interesting. It's 100 SNs apart from mine(formerly Fred's) and looks to have the same pattern abeit with the gold flashing over it.

I would lover to see more examples of these D&R watches photographed.

I'd also love to see more WW variations that might exist on these watches.
 

Phil Guest

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Hi Nigel, Here is another 'Diener & Rothacker - MEXICO' PL '72 from the same lot as listed earlier. This one is gold-flashed 3.978.047
This lot of 200 in the serial 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REG d.jpg 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REGULADOR dial-hands.jpg number grey book is incorrectly listed as 1888 model.

3.978.047 '72 htg EL REG d.jpg 3.978.047 '72 htg EL REGULADOR dial-hands.jpg
 
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Phil Guest

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This 1888 model PL S/no 7.067.353 is M F Kohler, Parsons, KAS. Listed as 15j Royal 'A', but is actually 17j DR.

7.067.353 Kohler '88 PL mov't DR.jpg
 
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topspin

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Just going back to the 1872 "El Regulador" movements (which are indeed incorrectly recorded as being 1888's) - what grade should we regard them as being?
 

ben_hutcherson

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Just going back to the 1872 "El Regulador" movements (which are indeed incorrectly recorded as being 1888's) - what grade should we regard them as being?
IMO, they are similar in finish to an Am. Watch Co. grade, although I haven't checked for numbered pillars on mine.
 

Phil Guest

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Here's another Tennyson 6.495.061 to compare with Dave's (although I'm not certain whether these & Warwick were PL or factory grades). Strange they would label them differently too when the numbers suggest they were produced only months apart?

6.495.061 '88 17j OF Tennyson mov't.jpg

Rgds, Phil
 

Dave Chaplain

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Phil, the differences in finish between the Tennyson's is interesting, but I gather from the online lookup records that these two Tennyson's were finished at least a year apart.
 

Phil Guest

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Hi Dave, I considered a year apart as being close. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I was trying to justify PL or factory grade. Puzzled as to why yours does not have American Waltham Watch Co., or Waltham, MASS etc? i.e. If it were a Private Label designation, at some cost, I would expect the owner to advertise his name and/or address too.
 

Dave Chaplain

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Hi Phil, I have no specific info on whether or not these were made as PL's, but I do know that the highly regarded poet Lord Alfred Tennyson died in late 1892, and his "Complete Works" were published in 1894, which parallel the dates on these watches. So lacking any other info I'd speculate that they may have been Waltham made memorials to the beloved poet - but I have no real proof either way. And as far as the addresses, etc., I've seen PL's done every which way, with and without.
 

Nick23

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I have an 1888 Model, Amn W Co. Grade hunter movement circa 1896 that was imported by Schierwater & Lloyd of Liverpool, but only marked to the dial. They had their Waltham imports cased by Dennisons and this one is in a very early gold filled case, S/N 785 which dates to about 1897/8. They made over a million G/F cases.
DSCF0138.JPG DSCF0139.JPG DSCF0137.JPG
 

Keith R...

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^^Nick, is there an ALD in a square inside the case lid? I notice a few contract Dennison cases with
no indicator of ALD, if stamped AB for Alfred Bedford. Keith
 

Nick23

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Keith, Yes it has the Dennison ALD Trade Mark on the inside of the rear cover. I don't think that any of the Dennison gold filled cases are marked with AB for Alfred Bedford. His sponser mark only seems to appear on gold and silver cases between 1876 and 1906.
It wasn't until after the death of Aaron Lufkin Dennison in 1895*that his ALD mark was used on cases containing Waltham movements, so there is an overlap of ten years(1896-1906) when either an AB mark or ALD mark can be found on silver cases used for Waltham movements.

* Although it has been recorded that the ALD mark could not be used on Dennison cases containing Waltham movements until after the death of Dennison, and none have been seen covering the period 1878 to 1894, one or two very early ALD cased Walthams have surfaced. I have an 1857 Model, Martin Square S/N 947898 in silver case S/N. 4, hallmarked for Birmingham 1876 with the ALD mark.

Nick
 

Keith R...

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Nick, I had this issue in my notes. Thanks so much for responding. I can revise my notes kind sir.

Keith
 

pmwas

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Funny, I've checked out this thread a few times before and only now I remembered the only model 88 I have so far is a private label ;)

xyzzytom_234177

xyzzytom_234178

That's Geo.H.Wood Lowell, Mass., ordinary Riverside grade...
 
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Fred Hansen

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Re: Waltham Model 1872 & 1888 PL Challenge - Are there any private labels out there?

121.jpg 123.jpg

4069925 - J.H. Johnston & Co., New York (signed dial and mvt)

- - - Updated - - -

131.jpg

3574479 - Geo. H. Richards Jr & Co., Boston Mass, Non-Magnetic (signed mvt)
 

Nigel Harrison

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Re: Waltham Model 1872 & 1888 PL Challenge - Are there any private labels out there?

Great pieces Fred, thanks for posting. Love the nickel Damaskeening there on the earlier one, that pattern is not common on a model 1888. I note on your nickel one also that only a very few early model 1888 pieces have the serial number wrapped around the winding wheel in that that higher barrel bridge position. Usually I only see these on model 1888 pieces starting with a 3 mill serial which not many we're made in that earlier range..though I do note also that the very very early first run pieces the serial is in the normal lower location...just an interesting observation that the location was moved twice and back to original location in the end...unless of course the finisher at the factory in a few runs though that was a good location for it while they were working on them. :)

Also of interest, I have a nickel Riverside marked grade only 20 serials exactly away from your nickel one and it is not PL and it was exported to the UK also as it is in a GF crystal case with slightly different style of dial than you would expect in the US, it is non mag though like yours...these two ended up with a very different life to each other even though only 20 apart.
 

Tom McIntyre

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I am posting in this fairly old thread to call @Dave Coatsworth 's attention to it, I have also been working on cleaning up some of the pictures that got mishandled in the move to this new site. In several cases, the pictures are in the Media area of the Message Board but only appear as references in the threads. I will try to make sure the thumbnails appear both places.
 

Nigel Harrison

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Here is one that went through ebay this week. Just amazing!

Another PL Model 1872 from Mexico with movement marked El Regulador Especial De Waltham

Though this one has gold plated nickel damaskeening!

Also the 14k hunter case is absolutely outstanding with both hunter case lids primarily covered in enamel with flowers and 99% in tact. The scalloped edge on the case very nice as well. A premium quality case and unique for a large mens size watch to have that enamelling as normally only seen like this on ladies watches.

The price I think was a bargain also at US$1305. That would be at about gold value or less at my rough estimate.

Link Rare 14k Gold Chronograph Frosted Plates Heavy Antique Waltham Pocket Watch 50393000088 | eBay - You will have to click on the original 'listing' link at the top of the page to see it as ebay now redirects you to other pieces for listings that have ended.
 

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