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Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Jim Haney, Jul 22, 2013.
Good story Jeff! And thanks for sharing it - maybe some pics at some point?
here you ARE
- - - Updated - - -
Start: 6/1/1860 End: 6/30/1860
First: 25331 Last: 25340
Model: 1857 Name: Nameless Ordered Movts
Material: A Grade: Special, NL
Size: 18 Size: 18
Plate: FP Plate: NL
Jewelling: 4 Holes Jewels: 11-15
Balance: Gold Bal: Gold-Exp.
Awesome watch - thanks for the pics!
Neat watch Jeff. The notation 4 holes jeweled is used for jewels only on the top plate, so the watch has 11 jewels. The grooves around the jewels you see are decoration rather than actual settings.
I especially like the notation of nameless ordered movements that indicates that they actually had a program of private labels at that time.
any idea who the casemaker is?
958929 - James P. Tryner, Bloomington Ills (marked nickel movement, keywind model w/ Abbott's stemwind attachment)
430675 - T.M. Lamb, Worcester Mass. (marked movement)
958801 - Quintard Bros., Poughkeepsie NY (marked movement)
471962 - Joseph Daller, Cincinnati O (marked movement and case)
Could the Anchor indicate a Dueber case?
I think so, sure looks like the Dueber anchor to me.
Jeff, Perhaps the Waltham S# look-up website is mistaken, but it says that serial number 23,831 (or is it 23,837) was finished in July of 1866, which means it would have been sold sometime after that date:
That is, of course, well after the Civil War ended, which would explain how a southern jeweler would have had a Waltham private label watch with the jeweler's name on it. I was intrigued by the possibility your watch suggested that Waltham might have done business with southern customers after secession and before the war ended, but this watch does not furnish any proof of same. (I had actually expected the S# lookup site to tell me that the watch was finished before Alabama seceded, but I was surprised!)
That run of 660 watches was sold way out of line with its neighbors that were all sold between 1859 and 1863. I wonder if there is some special story about them. Perhaps they were involved in Dennison's discharge.
The handwritten records look to say something different than the online db - I'm seeing Sept 1859-Oct 1860 for sn's 23601-24260 ... maybe a transcription error?
Another old one. 11977. CLARK BROTHERS Rutland, Vermont artbissell
Here's the handwritten journal entry for sn's 23,391 - 24,300 ...
it WAS made during civil War?
Could the nameless ordered movemens have been a notation for items sold "in bulk" to someone or some entity during Walthams reorganization?
The record shows these are assigned the name "Watson". Does anyone know the specifics of the "J. Watson" marked (or made for) movements, apparently sometimes marked "London" or "Boston" according to the price guide? I don't have anything on that.
And I'd say these were made just prior to the Civil War (April 12, 1861 - May 9, 1865), or "pre-Civil War" to be exact ...
Dave the database entry is almost certainly a transcription error. When I see these I correct them in the database. On the next generation of the site, there will be links to any images associated with the serial number or the run and the images will include both sets of handwritten ledgers and the gray book page for the run. That project is just beginning and I am a slow coder, so it will likely be at least another year. I am going to redo the AWCo.org site first to learn the new design techniques for cell phones, etc.
Supply lines being what they were, most of the watches carried in the Civil War were probably made in the months leading up to the war. A watch made in 1865 is unlikely to have gotten to a soldier in time for use in battle.
The pre 1857 Waltham was included in the discussion of early Waltham watches at the 2002 Time Symposium in Boxboro. Some of you went to Ft. Wayne instead.
Here are the thoughts I posted about it at the time.
I found this on the net (so it MUST be true...right?? )
"Robbins, when the company was known as Appleton Tracy and Company, had some minute changes made in this model in 1857, and tried to market it for $12.00 under the name of C. T. Parker. Only 399 of these 7 jewel models were produced as they did not go over well. In early 1861, the American Watch Company changed the name of this movement to J. Watson. The company dropped the name of J. Watson after the second run and renamed the model William Ellery, after one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. This watch became known as the "soldiers watch".
Jeff, I can't say if that story is true except the records do show a sequential progression for lower grade movements from Parker (Nov 1857) to Watson (Oct 1860 - just a little earlier than the note claims) to Wm Ellery (Apr 1861).
However, the story doesn't mention another 200 or so Parker higher grade movements made with 15-18 jewels between Feb 1858 and Dec 1859!
I think the pillar shown in your photo centered under the foot of the balance cock is exclusively Curtis not Warren!
You may be right PL. I have never seen that side view of a Warren. I did not mean to imply that the watch shown is a Warren, it is just a private label for someone named Warren. My remark related to the very visible pillar near the tip of the balance cock that is distinctly different in location on Warren and Curtis watches from the position on 1857 models.
By the way, I do not own the watch shown, in case anyone thought I might.
Relatively few Curtis watches have stop works or provision for it, but I think a few do have stop works as the watch shown does.
For those who want to see a Warren, No. 18 is displayed on Mr. Hanson's web site. http://americanhorologe.com/Warren/warren.aspx.
The second run Parkers were higher grade than the first run but I believe were 11 or 15 jewel movements, nothing more than 15. The first run was 400 watches (not 399) and the second run was 200.
The J. Watson were made from September 1859 to April 1861, 1200 total made with serial number ranges of 23601-24300 and 28201-28700. I believe first run examples are 7 jewel and marked "London" on the barrel bridge, second run examples are marked "Boston, Mass" on the barrel bridge and the first 300 of the run were 7 jewel and the last 200 were 11 jewel.
Here's pics of an example I had a few years ago, serial 28453 ...
hmm. Thanks Fred. Amazing work.
So mine, an earlier one would be unusual in that it is 11 Jewel? And it would be highly unusual for a watch from an American Union State would sell to a Confederate state?
The woolen mill in Maynard Mass where I worked many years after its efforts in the Civil War made both blue and gray cloth and had a tunnel to separate the production from where curious Union eyes might see the gray cloth being taken out. The far end was in a small house across the Mill Pond that powered the factory from the Assabet River.
At least that was the story we newcomers were told in the 1970s.
Definitely a cool unusual watch, but serial 25337 is as you originally posted shown in the record as from June 1860 so was before the war by about 10 months. Private labels of the far Southern states (Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida) are fairly tough to find from any era, and I'd think very few were likely made pre-civil war like yours.
The 11 jewel part though isn't out of the ordinary because the Waltham made quite a few 11J movements in this era.
Thanks for this clarification, Dave. I figured that serial number was made before the Civil War and was very surprised to see information suggesting otherwise. (I've been on vacation for the past week, or I would have thanked you sooner.)
Tom, may I assume that your statement referred exclusively to American made watches in service in the Confederate army? There is abundant, mutually supporting evidence of several different kinds definitively proving the contrary regarding American watches used in the federal army. If needed, I can provide this information when I return from vacation next week.
Clint, I was just expressing an opinion about the transport supply line from Waltham to the war front. I would think it took about 60 to 90 days from the completion and sale of the watch to its delivery to a soldier on the line.
I also suspect that some documentation that appears on Civil War watches arose from the desire of G.A.R. members to be able to carry a Civil War watch to various G.A.R. events. My great grandfather's Civil War Elgin was actually made in 1910. I was still very sad when it was stolen.
60 to 90 days seems like a reasonable estimate to me. Here is some data from watches with dated inscriptions and no signs that other movements ever had been in their cases:
Waltham PSB Grade M57 movement S# 42,888, finished between 6/1/62 and 7/31/62, presented in a 4 oz silver case to Sgt. James A. Sage by his company of the 25th MI Infantry in "1862." The regiment was mustered into service on 9/22/62. So your "60 to 90 days" estimate looks pretty good here.
Waltham AT&Co Grade M57 S# 107,296, finished in 2/62. in an 18K hunting case "Presented to J T Copeland Brig Gen Vols, by the Officers of Camp Copeland [which was just outside my home town of Pittsburgh, PA], 1864." So the lead time on this one may also have been from 60 to 90 days, but could have been longer, conceivably up to 10 months.
Now here are two watches that took longer to reach their ultimate recipients:
Waltham AT&Co Grade 16KW movement S# 80,265, finished between 11/1/63 and 1/31/64, in an 18K hunting case "Presented to Brig. Gen.l J. W. Fuller by the Officers and Enlisted Men of the 27th Reg.t Ohio Vet. Inf. Vol.s, July 20, 1865." The reference to "Veteran" infantry means that the 27th Ohio was recruited from veterans of earlier units whose terms of enlistment had expired, or which had been disbanded owing to attrition. November, 1863 to July 1865 is a huge span of time. However, there is evidence that the case may have been engraved considerably before it was presented, because Fuller had been brevetted to Major General in March, 1865, four months before the presentation, yet he is still described as a brigadier. Fuller, who was the original Colonel of the 27th Ohio infantry, was a distinguished officer, having played critical roles at the Battle of Second Corinth, at Parker's Crossroads (one of N. B. Forrest's rare defeats!), and especially during the Battle of Atlanta, where Fuller's performance earned him his final promotion. This watch came out of the Dr. William Heilman Collection.
AT&Co Grade 20KW movement S# 100,822, finished between 5/1/64 and 6/1/64, in an 18K hunting case "Presented to Capt. John Eddy by his friends in the Q. M. [Quartermaster] Dept., Camp Butler, near Springfield Ill, Apr. 1865." Captain Eddy had previously served as the commander of the Illinois 95th Infantry's Company E, which saw action at Champion Hill and the Siege of Vicksburg.
An interesting story. Bear in mind that early in the war, there was little standardization of uniforms in the federal army and even less of same in the confederate army. In 1861-62 there were numerous federal units who wore gray and numerous southern units who wore blue. This fact caused great confusion at Bull Run/First Manassas, among other early battles, with some tragic consequences.
So it may not actually have been clear for whom the gray cloth had been destined. But that said, neither is it out of the question that the mill owner was ambivalent toward the northern war effort, or even conceivably harbored southern sympathies. The war had disrupted the critical raw material supply line that had made New England textile manufacturers rich, and it also threatened to permanently destroy the southern slave labor system that had provided them with a crucial competitive advantage.
Ok, I retread your post and you did say it was a woolen mill, not a cotton mill. So if the mill owner had any sympathies for the secessionists, they would not be as easily traced. It may just have been "business."
971788 - J & G Latimer, 185 Walton Rd, Liverpool (marked mvt, flat enamel unsigned dial, Albert Bedford case with 1876 Chester hallmark)
Fascinating watch, Fred. This is the earliest Waltham export I've seen.
Fred, I cannot be certain without actually seeing it as you have, but it really looks more like a U than an N to me. The movement run is dated March, April, May 1877.
If the mark is an U then it was marked in 1883, which would be a bit long, but not exceptional for English production. Of course, it is also reasonable that Dennison was making up stock cases for Waltham watches that would be used when the stock came into the country. Having the case predate the watch by around a year would not be a real stretch either.
Definitely an "n", the mark inside the lid has wear but the matched hallmark on the pendent is strong and clear.
Assuming the case is original it suggests as you also wrote that the case was in inventory for a short time before pairing with the movement.
I think it is the letter 'n' that has been struck upside down. The letter 'n' is much clearer on the pendant.
I have seven Model 1857s, from S/N 794129 to 971646 in early 1875 to 1877 Dennison silver cases.
I also have four 1857s from S/N 199334 to 627175, all are in American cases. These movements were all made before the Dennison Watch Case Company was formed, so were they shipped cased?
Before his involvement with Waltham, Royal E. Robbins had a substantial import business of English watches and good connections in the U.K. from his own family. My view is that Robbins & Appleton as the exclusive agents for the American Watch Co. would have used their "English Channel" to supply watches, in cases, to the English market. Once the Waltham London office was opened and Dennison had their arrangement there, most of the traffic would have passed through that channel (or one of the other company offices in the UK).
Another example: F.N. Lamb jewelers from Worcester Massachusetts (in business 1840s to 1881). Serial number 471925.
707907 - R. P. & A. R. Flower, Watertown, NY
6510 - John Kitts & Co, Louisville KY (marked mvt and dial)
695790 - J.F. Sargent, Mt Pleasant Iowa (marked mvt)
771977 - J.A. Suits, Dowagiac Mich (marked mvt)
1000567 - D.W. Clark, Honolulu H.I. (marked mvt)
958632 - Jasper Stone, Charlestown Mass (marked mvt)
John O. Holden, Quincy, Mass SN 525121
958650 - Wm Cummings & Sons, San Francisco Cal. (marked dial and mvt)
867794 - Model '57 for F Whetter in St. Austell, England
Following a Dave Coatsworth post is never easy. Now I wish the plates were better,
but it's a nice watch. It's ticking away on the kitchen table as I type. It is a 15 Jewel
produced in April 1869. The case is for the English market. The private label is for
J.C. Clark of Batavia New York, (I'll correct the spelling after I post the picture). These
are the type cases one has to depress the crown to get the back lid to pop open. The
watch is about 55mm and it's a perfect fit in hand. The back of the case has seen
some pocket time.
This watch according to the data base is Waltham Watch Co and the records indicates
adjusted. This is my first model 57 private label. So here is a model 57 for J.C. Clark of
Batavia New York. I love the serial number, SN# 388884.
After about 22 hours of running, this J.C. Clark is spot on to my AT&Co carry watch, serviced by
Rob Carter. It will be next to get serviced and verified.
953526 - Theodore Wood, Shelburne Falls Mass. (marked mvt)
The newest watch in my quest for a nice watch from each of the earlier american companies. I think this is a great example for the american watch co. It's also my first American watch co/Waltham keeper.
Sn 388725 . Model 1857
Waltham watch co grade.
Private label for wm. Edwards
Movement and dial both marked "wm Edwards new York"
Still working on researching Mr. Edwards and haven't come up with anything yet, so will dig a bit deeper with some of the tips from Dave Coatsworth's great webinar on private labels. Unfortunately William Edwards seems to be a pretty common name.....
That one flat headed blue screw is driving me nuts, so that's something to find before it gets serviced. And some hands wouldn't hurt. I have a hand curse I swear. The plates are decent, dial has one small repair that's actually under the minute hand, but other than that it's good.
Thanks for reading have a good day!