Waltham identification

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by Carles, Sep 13, 2019.

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  1. Carles

    Carles Registered User
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    Could someone tell me the calibre of this Waltham movement? I can't find any id.

    Thank you.

    Waltham.jpg
     
  2. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    I believe it is a model 700.
     
  3. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Waltham 27829923, 17J, Model L, Size 7 1/4, Grade No. 767.
    Regards, PL
     
  4. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    Kinda... rusty ;)
     
  5. Carles

    Carles Registered User
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    Thank you!!!
     
  6. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Although model "L" may be in the database, that is based on the "gray book" which includes a lot of errors and inconsistencies in this regard. "L" stands for LIgne and goes along with the size indicated to designate this model. This wristwatch movement was designated by Waltham as their "7-1/4 Ligne Rectangular Watch", as shown in their various material catalogs.
     
  7. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    So how does that change what I said?
    PL
     
  8. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    The difference is if someone is trying to order parts. A parts supplier would have no idea what a "Model L" Waltham is since it did not exist. I was providing the actual model name needed for parts identification.
     
  9. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Hi Carles,
    Any competent materials supplier would know the source of the description of your watch in my Post #3.
    And that is the Waltham Serial Numbers list that refers to all Grade No. 767's as Model L.
    On the off chance that a supplier would be confused regarding the term Model L, they could look-up the serial number at the Waltham data base and, behold, it lists the Grade No. 767 as Model L-7.25 and Size as 7.25L.
    No where have I found the Grade No. 767 listed as 7 1/4 Lignes!
    Regards, PL
     
  10. Carles

    Carles Registered User
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    Perfect! Thank you.
     
  11. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #11 Bila, Sep 29, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019

    Would you like to highlight to me were you got the "Grade 767 or the Model L" from for this watch? The "Grade 767" movement was used in the "Waltham 750B" Wrist Watch and did not get produced until serial number 31,090,001. So the Grade 767 is not the "7 1/4 lignes Rectangular Model" and nor is the OP's watch a Grade 767.

    If your information come from the gray book or some database it is erroneous information. All the Waltham Factory material catalogs that we have seen do not list any form of "Grade Designation" to the 7 1/4 lignes Rectangular Model, so Jerry is correct in regard to what it actual is and what "Model Designation" to be used for parts ordering.

    The 7 1/4Lignes Model started at 24,362,000 and finished at 29,651,000, also be aware that there was a variation on the original model which was listed in the Waltham Factory catalogues as a "New 7 1/4L 1937" which used positive set material. These first used this feature starting at serial number 28869501.


    Erin
     
  12. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    The Waltham serial number lookup.
    PL
    It ani't the 7 1/4 Ligne!
     
  13. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    As I said, it is erroneous data in this case:)
     
  14. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #14 Bila, Sep 29, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
    You are incorrect, there is an old saying over our way "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is applies to your out and out stubbornness I am afraid to say. It is a "7 1/4 lignes Rectangular Model" whether you agree or not. Have you any idea on what the plate shape of a Grade 767 and the 7 1/4 lignes Rectangular Model looks like, I clearly think not judging by your intractability regarding this post:(
     
  15. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Sigh ...

    I fear this is getting more confused with more incorrect information. The grade 767 is one of the grades produced in the 7-1/4 ligne rectangular model (see pages below from the Waltham material catalog). It was a 17-jewel movement. This grade number (767) was also used for a 17-jewel version of the model 750 AND the model 750-B. This is why just asking for parts for a grade No.767 is not sufficient.

    Here is an excerpt from Waltham’s 1940 Table of Sizes:
    1940sizes.jpg

    Here is the top of the material page for the OP’s watch. Note how it is designated by the manufacturer.
    725mtl.jpg

    [The above excerpts from the 1940 material catalog were copied from the catalog scan on the Pocket Watch Database web site].
     
  16. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    My apologies, I did not check the front pages where the table of sizes are, I went to the parts listings and under the headings for the 7 1/4 lignes Rectangular Model there is no Model number/grade assigned in that parts section, yet all the others have, so I stand corrected on the Grade 767 being in the Rectangular plate design.

    The Model 750B & 750 are in the Barrel shape plate design, not the rectangular type, so I am under the impression that they take different parts, so as you first stated Jerry you would order parts for the 7 1/4 lines Rectangular Model. So the OP's watch is a 7 1/4 lignes Rectangular Model for the purpose of repair and parts supply

    Erin
     
  17. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    The Waltham factory serial number list never used the term Ligne or Lignes.
    I have a Waltham serial number 28,073,854.
    The factory lists it as Model L, Size 7 1/4, Grade No. 767, Jewels 17, Setting P.S., Style Rect., Grade of Material A.
    I think not only Jerry but any materials supplier knows that the Size 7 1/4 means 7 1/4 Lignes, even though not stated.
    I may be intractable but I'm damn sure not insulting.
    PL
     
  18. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    As the old saying goes - “Never say never”. For example, look these up in the printed factory serial number list ("the gray book"):

    13,044,303
    14,063,501
    14,152,802
    14,183,501

    ... and there are plenty more. The full size description - “10 ligne” did not fit in one column so they put “ligne” in the Model column. They did likewise with their 9-ligne movement in the 18-millions and the 7-1/2 ligne round movement in the 20-millions.

    But, as the various ligne sizes became more common (around 22-million), and perhaps with a revised record protocol, they abbreviated it to “L”. Although appearing in the Model column, this was still not a model name, but the extension of the size designation. This confusion that Waltham created, by mis-using the Model column, has resulted in errors in the various digital databases. When in doubt, go back to the source material. And in that regard, the factory serial number list compiled in 1954 was compiled long after most of these were made. The contemporary material catalogs (issued every few years from 1909 until the '50s) are the best source.
     
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  19. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Thanks Jerry I stand corrected.
    Regards PL
     
  20. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Great thread and we all learned a lot. (I know I did). These smaller calibers (forgive me for that term) need so much more study. Jerry has been on top of it for a long long time.

    Jeff
     

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